[Deck] GW Survival

[venice]

I agree that Spore+Genesis is amazing vs Elves/ Tribal in general. Probably one of the best answers.

Concerning Aven Mindcensor: yes, he´s also great in this matchup, but not only there. After some more testing, I have to say, this guy is so amazingly good in the current meta, that I will run at least one copy in my mainboard for now! I´ll definitely switch him for the mb Gaddock. I´m even thinking about cutting one KotR in favour for a second Mindcensor... but I´m not yet sold on this. All I know is, that if the meta shifts even more towards Survival/Vengevine builds, Mindcensor is a true powerhouse to have and gives the deck a huge edge concerning mirror matches. Also, which should never be underestimated imo, is the fact that the majority of people will not expect to run into Mindcensors - especially not preboard. This alone can steel games, until people prepare for it.

[Tao]

Vs. Survival Elves Ethersworn Canonist is really good. Helps you to win time for Iona and 1 Elf/ turn isn't that scary.

[St3B]

Thanks for the answers. In case I'll cut the Tutor SB plan I'll definately upp the numbers of Canonists. If we play Cannonists wouldn't it make sense to play 1 Memnite too? This could be a similar surprise as main deck Mindcensor.

[f|i[p]]

@St3B

Running 2 cannonist would be enough since it is an artifact itself, so you can cast the cannonist along with another creature.

@ venice

I have been running 2 mindcensors main deck, and they did help in the tournament last Sunday. I sometimes won in the back of mindcensor. Foiling fetch plans and survival plans. Mindcensors hits trinket mage, stoneforge mystic,tutor effects of combo, intuition and enlightened tutor. I will leave mindcensor main as I thought it was a good disruption creature as long as I think he fits the metagame. What is also good about it is that it has evasion. Helps block trygon predator along with mother.Having flash also helped as bouncing it was never a good answer. Although I didn't like the fact that he was 2/1, I can't think of any card that would disrupt and have eveasion at the same time.

@ GW survival players

I am still trying to figure out whats best to board in and out of the madness match ups. Some people here run versions with white some don't. Ill have to test it more to see what really works. Has anyone done extensive testing on this?

My current record against survival madness is 1-1 in a tourney. However I think I could have won the second game if I didn't commit major mistakes. As I read through an article , the dicipline of waiting is learned only through losses.

[venice]

@ GW survival players

I am still trying to figure out whats best to board in and out of the madness match ups. Some people here run versions with white some don't. Ill have to test it more to see what really works. Has anyone done extensive testing on this?

Regarding boarding against UG Survival, I now side the following cards: +3 Canonist + 2 Grip, +1 Spore Frog, +1 Genesis (one or two Mindcensors already maindeck), -3 Vengevine, -1 Rootwalla, -1 Witness, -1 KotR, -1 MoR.
I don´t bring in any Gravehate, since imo UG can play around Crypt etc. even better than GW with the addition of Stifle (sometimes also Trygon, depending on the situation), so it´s not enough to stop their engine. Canonist and Grips are far more efficient answers and much more difficult to handle for them.

@flip: We definitely should play again on MWS! Was quite funny meeting you there!

[venice]

Vs. Survival Elves Ethersworn Canonist is really good. Helps you to win time for Iona and 1 Elf/ turn isn't that scary.

1 Elf a turn isn´t, but 1st turn Llanowar, 2nd Priest, 3rd Natural Order is! ;) I don´t see the use of Canonist here at all - even if it´s pure Aggro-Survival without NO/Pro, I wouldn´t side in canonist. Just bring in more Spot removal, to keep them from being too fast and having creatures which can be sacced into NO. Then if you have enough mana, drop Survival and win. ;)

[lebarion]

1 Elf a turn isn´t, but 1st turn Llanowar, 2nd Priest, 3rd Natural Order is! ;) I don´t see the use of Canonist here at all - even if it´s pure Aggro-Survival without NO/Pro, I wouldn´t side in canonist. Just bring in more Spot removal, to keep them from being too fast and having creatures which can be sacced into NO. Then if you have enough mana, drop Survival and win. ;)

Canonist is a problem to builds without NO, but not a big problem alone. They usually have a one-of Viridian Shaman or Zealot. Besides, some builds have Wren's Run Packmaster, and all builds have Imperious Perfect and Quirion Ranger, so, as a Survival Elves player, the first thing I would do when facing a canonist is to survival for token generators.
Bottom line is: you can side in Canonist, but don't trust it to stop Elves alone.

[Waikiki]

doesn't canonist get weaker against UG madness now alot of people run memnite ?

[venice]

doesn't canonist get weaker against UG madness now alot of people run memnite ?

True. But imo it´s still good enough. If Canonist hits before they drop survival, they can´t go off the turn, they drop it. If they don´t have Survival their creatures get much worse (namely Mongrel+Moeba), since it would require having Memnite in hand to do any discard Rootwalla shenanigans.

[Waikiki]

Why does it need to be in hand?

[venice]

Because in a case with no Survival, there´s no way to search for it. Of course Rootwalls can be discarded/ played nevertheless, but not twice to trigger Vengevines - that´s how I meant it. ;)

[Waikiki]

ah ok I wasnt aware that survival was not into play. Seems we should be in advantage against them since we got more survivals and more pressure. Just stopping their early pressure seems key.

I played the matchup once and won by attacking their manabase and turtling up for the win.

[f|i[p]]

@ venice

We should definitely play again soon...

@ Waikiki

I think its quite hard to turtle against Madness since they have wonder. Game one is definitely in their advantage since all they have to do is drop wonder and we are almost as good as dead. Although we have more survivals, they also have intuition, and wild mongrel/aqua amoeba as an engine for vengevine. Their sheer speed can be stopped, but wonder graveyard makes our blockers wonder ...

Attacking their mana base is a good shot at slowing them down. Just like bant order, I used to kill noble heirarch just to delay them a bit. But Madness it seems does not really need 4 mana, they only need around 3.

Fighting against UG survival is just a tough match up. It is usually a race to survival, but they have counters and we don't. They have brainstorm which we don't. However if we both don't draw into survival, we can easily smash their face on creature quality alone.

So I guess the key to this match up is removing survival, or wonder.

Correct me if I am wrong however.

Now that I see it, Krosan grips are very good, but if we were really worried about survival, ray of revelation might be a good sb card against madness survival. It's a turn faster than k grips and is reusable. Although it is much narrower. Natures claim is also fast. Krosan grips are much better top decks against survival midgame and lategame.

[SMR0079]

Any suggestions for the mirror?

What role do you want to take, and what lines of play do you want to look for?

[Waikiki]

I think this also goes to who has survival effects active.

[f|i[p]]

@SMR0079

If your playing the mirror vs. Gw survival as well, I guess you'll have to take the role of whichever you are comfortable with. If aggro then aggro, if control, then control. Usually the game goes to whomever gets survival activated first, or whomever has a better sideboard against survival variants. Experience also comes in as if both of you have survival, you should know what card's you have to watch out for and when to use it.It can also be about build, Sometimes there are singleton cards that help finish the game that the other player doesn't have. Lets say an active scryb ranger which would allow you to give creatures vigilance, or have mother protect against 2 colors. Just like how the single wonder in Ugmadness gives all its creatures alpha strike capability.

[spirit of the wretch]

I went top8 at the 180 player legacy sideevent of GP Bochum with my Zoo-Survival list.
Report can be found here.

[lebarion]

I went top8 at the 180 player legacy sideevent of GP Bochum with my Zoo-Survival list.
Report can be found here.

Congratulations on the result!
I have a few questions on your list:
Did you find the Mindcensors useful against NO or Goblins, or in any other match?
Did you want to have more burn at some time?
Have you considered putting Vengevines in the list, maybe in the place of the KotRs?

[spirit of the wretch]

Did you find the Mindcensors useful against NO or Goblins, or in any other match?

Mindcensors are good. Honestly, they are the real deal!
They stop bad things from happening: NO, Entomb, Infernal Tutor, Survival, Enlightened Tutor... I don't think I'd cut them from the maindeck in the foreseeable future.
Not to mention they strengthen the Wasteland-plan considerably.
They aren't very good against aggro, but you already are heavily favored in that MU so I don't think they hurt you a lot pre-board.

Did you want to have more burn at some time?

I think with 4 Bolts, 4 Swords and 3 Lavamancer there's quite a lot of removal in this deck, which is what I use the burn for primarily. I rarely use it as reach, although it's nice to have that option.I don't think the deck would really benefit from more burn spells.

Have you considered putting Vengevines in the list, maybe in the place of the KotRs?

I did. Truth been told, I didn't want to afford the money to this point. I think if you want to put Vengevines in the deck you probably should play Iona maindeck and Fauna Shamans to maximize your combo potential. And at that point I think the straight GW list is simply better.
Vengevines have the possibility of a fast kill, which is very awesome, but with Survival probably being the deck to beat right now, they also are pretty weak to hate. I would think that people dust off their Extirpates and that is a card Vengevines definitely do not want to see.

So for now, I wouldn't change the maindeck. It's really solid.

[f|i[p]]

Congratulations spirit of the wretch!

I have always liked the swords to plowshares and lightning bolt combination in survival, as I also tried it a long time ago, however I didn't go for the angry cats build and just used anger and bolts with Rebs on the side for red.

Have you ever tested your list against UG madness survival or GW survival?

Also, it seems that you never had any disenchant effects on the sideboard? Krosan grips? or do you rely on pridemage to do its job fairly well.