I played again today and had a rather disappointing finish. I might do a more in depth report later but here is the gist.
Round 1: Countertop
Game 1: I win due to drawing three Wastelands and two Vindicates, easily keeping him off his mana.
Board: -4 Thoughtseize, -2 EE, +2 Choke, +1 Pernicous Deed, +3 Extirpate
Game 2: I play a Bob and a Goyf, everything gets countered and I stall out.
Game 3: Ends in a draw. We both have Goyfs on the board. No win in sight for either of us.
Round 2: Fairie Ninja Standstill
lol, it's a homebrew one of my friend's made. It runs a lot like Merfolk except it uses ninja tricks to sneak out bigger creatures.
Game 1: I land Bob, Top, and Knight and stabalize around 6.
Board: -4 Thoughtseize, -2 EE, +4 Engineered Plague, +2 Choke
Game 2: I wasteland then land a Choke and he scoops.
Round 3: Countertop Thopter
Game 1: Exactly like g1 against the other Countertop. I kill his land and win.
Board: Same as the other.
Game 2: It is back and forth for a little while until he lands a Jace and starts peaking at my top card. I scoop before he can go ultimate.
Game 3: Back and forth for a while. I land Elspeth. He can't do anything. Time is called. When he is at 5 life, he rips an O-Ring off the top and we draw.
Round 4: Affinity
Game 1: I lose to 3 Ravagers.
Board: -4 Dark Confidant, -1 Thoughtseize, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Diabolic Edict, +1 Deed
Game 2: I keep a hand with a Vindicate, a Swords, and an Edict but I should have mulled into EE or Deed. He rolls me before I can stabalize with two Ravagers and some Frogmites.
1 : 1 : 2
Bleh. I feel like I played much better than that looks. Those draws really were frustrating. I had no game against Affinity today though, so the loss was totally my fault.
I'm thinking about dropping the Diabolic Edicts for 2 more Deeds in the SB. That should give me a lot better game VS Affinity and should also help Countertop. Other than boarding Grips (that just feels redundant to me with Vindicates), is there anything I could do to help make my Countertop MU more solid? Perhaps boarding out Thoughtseize was a bad idea.
Last edited by Dzra; 11-01-2010 at 03:34 AM.
i will do some testings against countertop, when i have done that i will tell you my opinion on the matchup, but i can and will only test the countertop goyf list, since i feel it to be the strongest
by the way, i would have done other sideboarding against countertop thopter, because basically if you land a engineered plague on thopter, they have real hard time beating you, since the only other winoption i think is jace, and you should be able to get rid of him
in the meantime here is my list, but i have to say i am not totally satisfied with my sideboard.... still tinkering around with that
lands + mana (still using shocklands because i still havent got the real ones)
3x overgrown tomb
2x godless shrine
4x verdant catacombs
4x marsh flats
1x forest
1x swamp
1x plains
1x sejiri steppe (awesome tech really)
1x karakas
1x maze of ith
1x horizon canopy
3x wasteland
3x mox diamond
creatures
4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
4x knight of the reliquary
spells
4x thoughtseize
4x hymn to tourach
2x gerrards verdict
4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
2x pernicious deed
3x sensei's divining top
Sideboard
4x extirpate
2x pernicious deed
3-4x diabolic edict
3-4x engineered plague
2x duress
only things i will surely keep in these numbers in my sideboard are deed and extirpate, with the rest i am tinkering around, depending on meta
Yeah, actually against Countertop Thopter, I didn't even see Thopter Foundry until Game 3. And even then, it just sat there. I suppose I should have guessed when I didn't see any green mana. Really though, Thopters weren't the problem. The problem cards for me were Jace the Mind Sculptor, Moat, and his Enlightened Tutor toolbox. Really, fighting that deck is like walking uphill through mud.
I did make a play error in game 3 that I believe could have cost me the win, looking back. There was a moment when I could have pulled an Extirpate off the top with Top and Extirpated his Swords. He already had two Swords in the yard though, so I figured it wasn't as big an issue. (to be fair though, he did have a Counterbalance out, so it might not have mattered) Right before time was called, he Swords my Goyf (which would have dealt lethal). This forced me to make a token next turn and gave him two extra turns to find an answer to Elspeth.
Against the first Countertop deck in game 1, I made a pretty embarrassing play error as well. I had an active Knight out and a Maze of Ith. I swung in. He took damage. I should have untapped my Knight with Maze at the end of combat to keep him active, but he had a dude with flying out that I wanted to use Maze on. (I shouldn't have been worried, I was at plenty of life) He untaps, draws a Swords, kills the Knight and buys himself several turns while I wait for a creature on top.
Games 2 and 3 against him, there really wasn't much more I could have done. Game 2 was bad draws. Game 3 could have been either of us.
My sideboarding strategy against Countertop was similar to my strategy against Merfolk, which is board out hand hate and shoot for the long game. Against Countertop, I figured that I was going to hit the end game anyways, so I might as well take out hand disruption. Perhaps that was the wrong idea. Maybe I should think about boarding in more disruption and really shooting for the early game. This feels like putting all my eggs in one basket, but I'm starting to think that Countertop has much more game in the end game than we do.
Also, I found that even though Choke has been amazing against Merfolk and primarily Blue decks... against Countertop it is usually only slightly annoying to them (they start fetching basics anyways once they realize we have Wastelands) and they find an answer for it within the next few turns.
Cards I'm thinking about for Countertop are Gerrard's Verdict (going a more early game sort of approach) and Vampire Nighthawk. I like Gerrard's Verdict, but the meta I usually play in has very little Countrol and a lot of Aggro. I feel like I can't risk topdecking Verdict when I need an answer for Aggro.
Nighthawk... I saw another Rock deck playing Nighthawk and the idea appealed to me, but I couldn't think of how to fit it in MD. Maybe it deserves a SB spot if I'm expecting Countertop though. It raises our threat level, it gives us more options racing Goyf (it would be really dirty with a Maze out), and best of all... it can fly over Moat.
Assuming an ideal world sort of SB, I might try this against Countertop: -4 Swords to Plowshare, -2 EE, -2 Maybe Vindicate??, +4 Vampire Nighthawk, +2 Gerrard's Verdict, +2 Pernicious Deed (alternatively, I could not board in Deeds and hope that I can finish them off really early).
Perhaps though, the moral of the story is to play more efficiently. /shrug
i would recommend going for the aggro-discard and less control against any deck that counters, in any way, simply because a turn 1 hymn often enough criples them, and a gerrards verdict on turn 1 is just about the same, because to keep their lands they will have to discard their business-spells, otherwise they will get manascrewed because we have wastelands and vindicates
but deed is definitely important in this matchup, but 2 deed 4 vindicate should do it
i think maybe we should try extirpates in this matchup, because in this matchup it is so versatile, because we can rob opponents lands out of their library, remove their only viable removal against our guys (swords to plowshares), also if going for discard anything that could annoy us during the match, and last but not least remove their counters, and they can't do a thing about it.
nighthawk is no good at least in this variant of the deck, if using elspeth as well maybe it could work but, he is simply no threat at all and gets burned by firespout, i tried nighthawk in a few different rocklists, and the only one where he was good is a list together with stoneforge mystic and equipments.
i was thinking of some other beaters that can fly over moat without elspeth, and the only viable choices in my mind are abyssal persecutor (problem with getting rid of him if the job is done), tombstalker (does not fit because we allready have goyf and knight, otherwise he would be the one i would use), and Mystic Enforcer (same weakness as our other beaters, but 6/6 flying and protection black is not bad at all)
if jace is the biggest problem in this matchup, i would opt to run or pinthing needle or maybe even runed halo in the sideboard, runed halo would also help in the combo matchup, which is not bad
i would be interested in how the countertop players sideboarded, since you won game 1 both times easily by denying mana, and lost or drew the following games, do you remember anything about their sideboarding??
Ah right, Firespout. Good call there, sorry Nighthawks.Originally Posted by AggroSteve
I'm not totally sure what they brought in actually.. Unfortunately, when I didn't make top 4, I left (I was running late for somewhere anyways) so I didn't get a chance to ask them. I should see that same group of players the Sunday after next though so I can ask them then.
My guess though is that they brought in some enchantment/artifact hate in order to hit EE/Deed and it unintentionally helped them against Choke (or maybe they were just ready for it). I suspect that they also brought in more removal like O-Rings which are particularly good against us since it is a 3cmc and our curve is really centered on 3. Moat might have come from the side or might have been main. They might have sided in Pithing Needles, but I never saw them. Their counterspell count seemed pretty consistent throughout the match though. The Thopters guy might have boarded his Daze, but I know he still had Forces.
As for my success with boarding out hand disruption VS Merfolk... I feel it's due to the fact that we have a much, much stronger endgame than they do, counters or not.
Rock took 4-5 slots out of the Top 20 at SCG Open: Charlotte. I wouldn't be surprised if some people thought Knight of the Reliquary was just TOO good
-Matt
I think taking out EE against counter top decks is your biggest mistake. This is one "destroy target counterbalance" card that is really only counterable by them using up their force of will. Also I could not see taking out thoughtseize against them as it is the bomb and also is great at stopping that CB from hitting the table or ripping out that FoW so your EE can take out CB.
For those of you looking at a more aggro meta, I would look into running some Ghastly Demise. I usually like to run 2x alongside the 4x swords and it generally turns out pretty good for me. I feel duress is a waste of a sideboard slot, and pithing needle is almost a must have. With survival decks running rampant pithing is really good. It may seem like overkill, but bojuka bog is really nice to have here too. It works well against other graveyard decks too. I suggest 2 deed main and 2 in the board because it is that damn good. It is especially sick against merfolk. The only issues I am still running into is what to play as hate vs. storm combo. Canonist, Teeg, and Leyline of Sanctity all seem pretty viable. I've been going with the Leyline because there's usually at least one person in my meta playing burn... and this crushes burn (which is otherwise a pretty bad matchup for us). That's my 2 cents for today.
Hmmm... maybe the reason I had trouble games 2 and 3 was more due to me gimping myself after boarding than them getting better... That'd be pretty facepalm. ;/ I do admit though, I'm fairly new to the Legacy scene and that was my first experience against Countertop. I suppose I could conceivably see boarding in 2 Pernicious Deeds in place of the EE and leaving the rest of the deck as is, but EE does have the advantage of getting around Counterbalance.
That being said, I've wondered if I shouldn't just run Deed over EE anyways. I originally liked EE because it was much more 1-sided against aggro and it came online faster... Part of me feels like I'd rather have a board wipe that I can be more selective with than an "oh shit" button. However, Deed is definitely more powerful and 2cmc is a number I frequently use EE for anyways. Deed is also a house against Affinity.
It's a tough call. ;/ I feel like Deed might be the better choice though.
As for Ghastly Demise, I run Path over it in the SB since I see the mirror a fair amount.
i was wondering about how well engineered plague was performing for you guys, i am quite unsatisfied with it, actually the only matchup where it is good is against goblins, merfolk has too many lords for plague to be effective enough
other thing i was thinking about is duress in the sideboard, i was thinking of cutting them as well, and add needle in their place, but with cutting duress i feel like losing against combo (do not know why)
ghastly demise and path actually have the same purpose, with path beeing better against vengevine, but giving opponent more lands which demise would not, i think its a decision depending on the build
I can think of only two good options. One being run Infect over Engineered Plague and the other being run 4 Path to Exile (up from 2) and a fourth Deed. That said, I'm not sure I'm really that disappointed in Engineered Plague.
As for Duress, I dropped it a while ago because no one in either of the two areas I play at uses Storm. I'm always a little scared that I'll run into one by surprise, but Id rather prepare for the decks I know are there.
The reason I choose Demise of Path is because when you're running wastelands... path helps defeat the purpose of wasteland. Also I find it sometimes useful to be able to put a creature in the graveyard to help tarmogoyf. Really the only time path is better is when hitting vengevine, which is enough to want to run path over demise if your meta has much vengevines in it.
Of the times i've played with plague, i've been extremely disappointed in it. I find that the Tabernacle at Pendril Vale as a 1 of in the sb is fine for goblins and storm decks alike. When playing storm the 4 leyliines and 1 tabernacle seem to be doing the trick for me. If they put out tokens, deed hits em, or tabernacle gets there, usually via KoTR.
tabernacle sure would be an awesome thing, but financially not possible for me
i was now wondering if anyone knows some alternatives to plague or infest
This is my sideboard with Engineered Plague.
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed
This is what I'm thinking about changing it to minus the Plagues.
4 Extirpate
4 Path to Exile
2 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Bojuku Bog (this is somewhat of a flex slot)
The relevant part would be the 2 more Paths and the 1 more Deed. Right now, I sideboard against Merfolk like so: +1/2 Paths, +2 Choke, +3/4 Plague, +1 Deed. Post-Plague, I'd SB: +4 Path, +2 Choke, +2 Deed.
As far as Path being counterproductive, I agree that if you aren't expecting Vengevine or many other decks running Black then you might as well run Ghastly Demise. However, in my meta there are 2 other Rock decks, 2 Affinity decks, 1 Mono-black, and 1 GW Survival. Demise cannot hit Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, or Disciple and it's only an annoyance to Vengevine.
Goblins, Merfolk, and Elves, where I am going to need extra removal the most, are generally mono-colored or have a slight splash (they are unlikely to have more than 1 basic, if that, in their splash color). The Wasteland plan is generally not going to be that good against them anyways. Wastelands in those matchups are relegated to nuking key lands, not trying to completely screw your opponent. (with the exception being against Merfolk with a Choke resolved, however Path plays nice with Choke regardless)
I'm still trying to decide if this seems stronger against Tribal/aggro decks than Plague or not. It is a very reactive plan, where plague is proactive, but the idea of being able to have 8 Swords effects post-board is pretty appealing.
I've changed my build around a bit, firstly adding Maze of Ith after realizing it's THAT good () and cutting my curve to just above 2.
I was looking over the list that did well at the SCG Opens and realized: they run 0 basics lands. Wait, nvm, I saw they run 3. Seems very risky to me at least. As well, they run 4 Wastelands and only 6 duals? I know they have the Moxen, but still.
Anyways, my newly updated list. My Knights probably don't get as big as the SCG lists do, but they get there enough.
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
I'd love if you guys could give it a test drive and tell me what you think.
Are you not playing mox diamonds due to money reasons? And why none of the discard suite?I've changed my build around a bit, firstly adding Maze of Ith after realizing it's THAT good (
I was looking over the list that did well at the SCG Opens and realized: they run 0 basics lands. Wait, nvm, I saw they run 3. Seems very risky to me at least. As well, they run 4 Wastelands and only 6 duals? I know they have the Moxen, but still.
Anyways, my newly updated list. My Knights probably don't get as big as the SCG lists do, but they get there enough.
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
I'd love if you guys could give it a test drive and tell me what you think.
I have the Diamonds but have liked Hierarchs for the Exalted bonus, and I've never liked the discard suite. I was playing 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Hymn, and personally never found the discard to be enough when I played. Playing 10 pieces is obviously much better, but I found drawing discard late in the game was absolute balls, and early game is wasn't enough for the matchups where is was supposed to matter (combo or something like that).
I've gone for a more controlling build instead "aggro," like the Junk lists from SCG.
As Jaco said on the Eternal Central article, you don't really need Diamonds, as you have enough first turn plays, and they become huge dead draws later on.
Was fiddling with the deck for the past few hours and I'm going to give the discard suite a try again.
New list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
(I have that I've cut 3 basics for 3 Wasteland, feels SO dirty...)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 slot if need be (an extra pulse, Sylvan Library, Maze of Ith, Karakas, Deed, Arena, etc.)
Board:
2 Deed
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Choke (or 3 Pate 2 Choke)
It's a little faster, and not AS controlling, but much more fragile. It's still more stable than the lists that went to Charlotte, though.
-Matt
Last edited by sdematt; 11-03-2010 at 11:09 PM.
first i did not like the discard suite at all, but now that i have intensively tested with it, i will not go back simply because it gives me the card advantage i have been seeking for, and the deck is more flexible in playing now (used a controllish build previously, just like yours sdematt)
the deck can play aggro with the discard, but also controlisch, since i still have 4x StoP, 4x Vindicate, 2x Deed main, and more spotremaval in the sideboard
now i have the options to manascrew opponent with 3x wasteland + 4x vindicate (+ hymn eventually)
the discard package together with mox diamonds is able to destroy opponents gameplan, even before he did start playing any spells
i feel more comfortable with the discardpackage, since now i am less forced to draw answer after answer to opponents threads
only thing that disturbs me a bit is that the deck relies almost to much on confidant like this, which is not the case with a more controllish build
these are my expieriences with the discard package,....... and by the way i would play maze of ith in a controllish build as well, simply because this land is AWESOME!! :D
i have now changed my sideboard as well:
4x extirpate
4x diabolic edict
2x path to exile
3x duress
2x deed
i would love to fit in 2x needle but i do not know which slots i could take out... maybe 1x duress, and either 1x edict or extirpate, what would you take out?
I love Mox Diamonds. If I ever draw them late in the game they usually aren't even a dead draw. I'll just pitch it straight to the graveyard without discarding a land and poof! Tarmogoyf gets an easy +1/+1.
That said, I'm going to start experimenting with boarding out the hand disruption in favor of more board control depending on whether or not I'm on the play or draw. On the play, I'll board in two Gerrard's Verdict. On the draw, I'll board out disruption in favor of Paths and extra Deeds.
As for what to cut, Steve, I'd go with Diabolic Edict or Duress. I haven't been that impressed with Edict (I MD Karakas anyways) and my meta has no combo so I cut Duress. I definitely wouldn't go less than four Extirpates.
actually i have been loving edicts, really, they are most of the time the same as targeted removal, even help against enchantress^^, i just wish there was enough place for 16 cards in the sideboar, but you are probably right, i think extirpate must be a 4-of, so i will cut 1x duress and 1x edict
another question
@ Dzra, is choke performing really that good against blue based decks, .... let me be clearer, do we need choke against blue decks, is it like a "i win button" or does it simply make winning easier?
the question comes to my mind because i am still thinking what would be better to include, needle or choke
have you tried needle in chokes place?, if yes how did it perform, and what are the pro-cons in your opinion, what archetypes would needle actually be better against, and what matchup, which is bad is improved by either one of those cards
for needle i think:
vengevival, blecher, goblin/merfolk (vial, siegegang,... don't know), countertop(jace),....... please help thinking on this, what are the best cards to name in relevant/bad matchups to improve the matchup
choke:
any bluebased deck like merfolk, countertop, new horizons, ........ please tell me your expieriences with it
last question: may seem kind of dull, but actually i have only few expierience in tournaments, so could anyone tell me what matchups are the worst one for this deck (with discardsuite), and which are the easiest ones
@Dzra: i was wondering where you are from, since i am looking for new places to play legacy, i am from Innsbruck in Austria, does anyone live nearby, and does anyone know where the nearest legacy-tournaments are taking place?
Choke has definitely been an "I Win" button against mono-blue decks and blue decks with tiny splashes. It hasn't performed too well for me against Countertop as they have plenty of non-island basics to fetch. It might work well against New Horizons as they only run 1-2 basics. Choke has a lot of synergy with the land destruction theme of the deck. (for example, Choke keeps your Islands/Dual Lands tapped down, I Wasteland your Mutavault, then I Vindicate your Forest, gg)
Needle is definitely more versitile than Choke. Against Merfolk and Goblins I would probably name Aether Vial. Survival is an obvious name. Against Countertop you could name Jace, Seal of Cleansing, Aura of Silence, Top, Thopter Foundry, etc. It would just depend on board position. The biggest reason I wouldn't run Needle though is that it has pretty bad synergy with Deed.
I've had the most trouble with Affinity, but I've been changing my SB up so I don't think it'll be so bad next time. I've heard that Burn can be a challege too though (and Zoo can definitely be a problem if they keep a really Burn heavy hand). Both of those decks empty their hand quickly, turning our discard (CA) into card disadvantage. Burn even more so, since they have next to no non-basic lands, and few Vindicate targets. A first turn Hymn against either one is exceptionally good though because they can both keep very fragile starting hands, after t2/3 though, the discard is useless.
I'm from Dallas, Texas actually. ;D If anyone lives around me then let me know! There's a couple places I play in the North Dallas area.
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