Survival / Vengevine Poll

[dontbiteitholmes]

What I'm most annoyed about is the constant complaining about vengevine deck. I think if they banned either there would be more complaining about the 250$ people just lost, so I'm on the fence. Either way I want less complaining.

Well on the poll less than 20% of people are in favor of an immediate ban. So I guess that the term "Vocal Minority" would apply here.

[Hawdes]

Well on the poll less than 20% of people are in favor of an immediate ban. So I guess that the term "Vocal Minority" would apply here.

To be exact (or fairly) it's 18,6% people that want an immediate ban on either.

[Amon Amarth]

You do know that card has been fine since 1997?.
it took them over 13 years to make a card that put it in the tier 1 catagorie...

And Tinker was fine till they printed Mirrodin block. In case you haven't noticed the quality of creatures has been going up significantly in these last few years. It's very likely that they would print something else to make the deck go nuts. But, seriously, Venegevine? Do you want to be the format that had to ban Vengevine?

[majikal]

But, seriously, Venegevine? Do you want to be the format that had to ban Vengevine?

In a word, yes. Vengevine breaks all kinds of rules by iteself. It is essentially a free spell, and free spells have a high potential to become broken, moreso than tutors. Survival adds several distinct archetypes to the game by itself, while Vengevine adds nothing but abuse. It's a poor design that unfortunately has no fair applications in a format with so much graveyard manipulation.

[Amon Amarth]

In a word, yes. Vengevine breaks all kinds of rules by iteself. It is essentially a free spell, and free spells have a high potential to become broken, moreso than tutors. Survival adds several distinct archetypes to the game by itself, while Vengevine adds nothing but abuse. It's a poor design that unfortunately has no fair applications in a format with so much graveyard manipulation.

I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree here. I agree with your points but we differ in degrees; I think that makes Vengevine great but not overly warping. But it's all good because this is all hypothetical and I don't think the archetype needs anything banned. I would be very sad to see it go.

[Koby]

Only WotC knows what's in store with the upcoming sets. That they released the stupidly abusive Vengevine to wreck havoc not only in Legacy, but now Extended is bad news.

Oh what's this? Haven't seen any Extended decks abusing Vengevine yet? Just wait until PTQ season.

To name two:
VV/BBE Elves
Dredge-o-vine

Both try to abuse it with Fauna Shaman (a real no brainer). How is extended supposed to deal with the threat of many, hasty, 4/3 creatures? They don't even have Extirpate, Propaganda, Perish, nor Hibernation.

And yet, Survival of the Fittest is the problem here? No, I think you're mis-evaluating how poorly designed Vengevine is.

[Jodahae]

"Do you want to be the format that had to ban Vengevine?

Yes, I am an adult, I can live with the snickering of standard players for banning a creature.

The facts speak for themselves, Suvival is dominating the meta game like few decks Ive seen since 2007. Now I am hoping that we get though December without losing any cards, maybe even seeing some new ones unbanned, but Ill say it now, that if Survival stays on track with its performance throughout the Invitational and over half the top 16 is survival well get ready for a banning.

[Rood]

Just want to point out, this deck is nutz. For real dawg. That said, sell off your Survivals while you still can.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Bannings should follow a policy of least harm. If it's necessary to ban something, ban the card that wouldn't be played otherwise (Vengevine) and not the card that has lots of other uses (Survival).

[lolosoon]

During the SCG Boston Video Coverage @EternalCentral, we could see that FaunaShaman+Quirion Ranger was all those "Survival" Decks needed to stomp over several opponents.

Hell, a Turn 2 Progenitus (S&T) has been raced by Fauna Shaman+Quirion Ranger alone !

I really do think that VengeVine is the problem here. Well, unadapted Meta first, then the MonsterPlant.

Where were the Combo players BTW ?!!

[eq.firemind]

Wait a moment.

I just realized that there is a possibility for green creature to be banned before Tarmogoyf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Wait a moment.

I just realized that there is a possibility for green creature to be banned before Tarmogoyf.

In Tarmogoyf's defense, he costs mana and has summoning sickness.

[Koby]

In Tarmogoyf's defense, he costs mana and has summoning sickness.

Damn you for speaking Truth so simply!

[dontbiteitholmes]

In Tarmogoyf's defense, he costs mana and has summoning sickness.

Mind if I ask what you voted?

[DragoFireheart]

Bannings should follow a policy of least harm. If it's necessary to ban something, ban the card that wouldn't be played otherwise (Vengevine) and not the card that has lots of other uses (Survival).

The same could be said of Ad Nauseam / Entomb and Mystical Tutor. Remember which one got banned?

Survival of the Fittest would likely be banned before Vengevine did. Tutors are always the first piece of the puzzle to be looked at when examining a powerful combo.

[SpikeyMikey]

You're right of course, but the question isn't what WILL they ban if they swing the banhammer, but what SHOULD they ban. I don't think there's anyone here that feels that the DCI is 100% right in what they ban. It's just that nobody thinks they're far enough wrong to try and start their own format in opposition to it.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think they should ban anything. Vengevival is powerful but not so much so that it can't be checked. Combo can race it, BUGW Jacestill can prey on it. I've heard that enchantress decks can fight the deck as well.

I think we should see if the format can adapt to the new deck. Wait a few months and then see.

[DragoFireheart]

During the SCG Boston Video Coverage @EternalCentral, we could see that FaunaShaman+Quirion Ranger was all those "Survival" Decks needed to stomp over several opponents.

Hell, a Turn 2 Progenitus (S&T) has been raced by Fauna Shaman+Quirion Ranger alone !

If it was an Emrakul the other dude would have won. S&T for a Pro is kinda bad in comparison.

[Koby]

I would like to add to this discussion Exhibit A:

Quarterfinals vs. BGW Ooze Survival (Gerry Thompson)
Fuck. Alright, just shuffle up, take a deep breath and play. I mull to 6 and keep a t2 SnT-> Progenitus. He goes first and plays a Hierarch, then on turn 2 he plays a Fauna Shaman and Birds of Paradise. I SnT the Progenitus, he drops a Forest. Hell yeah, I got this. The next 2 turns were a blur... on his turn, he thinks for about a minute, then goes through an elaborate process of tutoring up Quirion Rangers, untapping his mana guys to tutor up some more and play another one. His board at EOT is 2x Fauna Shaman, Hierarch, Birds, 2x Ranger. I swing for 10 and pass. He does the untap-> retap-> Fauna Shaman up 4 Vengevines and attacks for 20, outracing my turn 2 Progenitus. Whoa...

Granted that this describes a turn 4 VV kill, with zero disruption from the Sneak Show player. What do you think about this?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The same could be said of Ad Nauseam / Entomb and Mystical Tutor. Remember which one got banned?

Survival of the Fittest would likely be banned before Vengevine did. Tutors are always the first piece of the puzzle to be looked at when examining a powerful combo.

Perhaps it will be. I was laying out an argument for what should be banned. I think the tutor thing is a leftover knee-jerk reaction from Vintage, where you had to restrict the tutors by the nature of the format.

Mind if I ask what you voted?

I didn't vote. I'm not active enough in Legacy at the moment to have an informed opinion on whether or not Venge Vine Vival is overpowered.