@ Mana Drain: I was referring to this statement, as it seemed to me like he was talking about 4 Pte's in the maindeck, instead of StP's, sorry if I got this wrong.Originally Posted by Metalwalker
@ Metalwalker: Can you imagine him attacking and therefor reecuring another one... somehow I got the feeling to scribble down a version with this guy and test in on MWS to be either totaly disapointed or suprised.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
Disappointed.@ Metalwalker: Can you imagine him attacking and therefor reecuring another one... somehow I got the feeling to scribble down a version with this guy and test in on MWS to be either totaly disapointed or suprised.
EDIT: In theory disappointed is what I meant to say, 4WW is not going to work out in Legacy, but you know what? I might test it in some jank build because who knew cards like Vengevine + Survival is so overpowering? I'm not saying Sun Titan + Standstill is nuts (since it still involves you having a good position but I just randomly saw the interaction and got one of those nerdgasm moments lol), but when I sat down and thought, "Hey our factories don't get StP'd when we're in control of the game and finally beating to win, so Sun Titan should survive as well?" until I realize that Factory and other cards serve more than just win-conditions for the deck lol. Just a thought, not a suggestion to the deck obviously :P He has vigilance to block too and recurs your lands/Crucible/EE@0 lol.
I think anybody who saw Vengevine and played Magic for more than 3 months knew the card was insane. Sun Titan is an AMAZING card in Standard, but just not impacting enough to help in Legacy. I can imagine very few non-winmore situations where he would realistically be better than Elspeth. Even Frost Titan can be pitched to Force if you really want a Titan in your deck.
The only targets he has to return are lands, Standstills, and EE's for 0, plus a few flex cards different players may run, and none of those are very appealing for 6. Also, remember that every deck that runs removal will have it stockpiled, as we run no creatures other than Factory. So, he will likely be "4WW, Sorcery, Return target irrelevant card from your graveyard to play. Target opponent discards a removal spell." PW's and cards like Shackles just have more of an impact, earlier in the game, and are harder to remove.
Plus, 6 mana. I mean really, this is Legacy guys, and this type of time and mana doesn't come easy. Remember the adage, if it costs more than 3 mana, it better win you the game or stop you from losing the game. If it costs 5 or more, it better be able to be played for free, or give you head when it comes into play.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
Hey, I'm planning to play this deck for the open dutch champs next weekend, and would like some comments/tips/SB plans on my current list.
The meta I'm predicting is:
Tier-1: Goblins, Tes, Vengevival
Tier-1.5: Landstill, Merfolk, Zoo
Tier-2: TT, CounterTop, The Rock
Maindeck: 60
Card Advantage & Quality: 9
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
Removal & Board-Control: 13
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Path to Exile
2x Humility
1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgment
Counters: 10
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
Win-Conditions: 4
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands: 24
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
1x Swamp
3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Wasteland
Sideboard: 15
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
1x Telemin Performance
@: JamieW89
Some thoughs:
You should consider Persih>Plague, since Goblins tend to run Grip plus 4 lords and Merfolk runs around 12-16? diminishing Plagues impact tremendously.
Perish would also have a much stronger impact against TT, Rock, Survival, Zoo and CT
It's true, your Merolk MU would suffer from that change, however serveral other MUs would be improved. Plus you'd really have to stick 2 Plagues in order to get profit.
---
You seem to be sold on Canonist. I'm not positive though whether that guy's really the best combo hate out there.
Meddling Mage is still a strong choice and Tidehollow Sculler is also neat, coming in against control, too.
4 "Extract" could be feasible too, complementing Extirpate nicely.
---
Also, I'd cut 1 Top in favor of the 4th Standstill, since you always want it against most decks after STPing their turn 1 dude.
---
just my 2 pence.
You seem to be sold on Canonist. I'm not positive though whether that guy's really the best combo hate out there.
Klaus he is. Cannonist is the best option for directly hating general tendrills combo. Especially since the banning of MTutor.
Also, whats with the lack of 2x humility and or planar voids in peoples lists?
Most goblin lists here are mono red, and if they splash they're usually RB. So I think I'd prefer Plague for the goblins and merfolk matches, as I expect quite a few.
And canonist is sick, it's pretty much game if it comes down and it doesn't get hit by duress either.
Going back to 4 Standstill is an option though, as the amount of merfolk seems to be slightly decreasing. But I don't really want to go to a singular top. Would it be worth it to cut a PtE, or should I keep playing 6 StP's?
I agree with Cannonist as a SB option for Combo. Most Tendrils lists in Legacy don't run Thoughtseize as more than a 1/2-of, so they can't Duress it and it can't be blasted with REB/Pyroblast. Just watch out for end-step Wipe Away/Krosan Grip/Disfigure. Those decks expect something like Meddling Mage from us and usually pack some removal for it post-side. Also, even though she isn't as effective of Vengevine hate as she used to be, she's still worth siding in for the match, forcing them to find their singleton Memnite/Shield Sphere.
Jaimie, why not cut a DoJ for a Standstill? You're running 6 spells that cost 2WW, and that just seems way too many for any fast, developed metagame. You need more T1 and T2 plays, especially if Gobs and Merfolk are a big part of your meta. I mean really, how do you expect to cast those cards through Waste and Port from Gobs, and Waste, Cursecatcher, Daze, Spell Pierce, and of course Force from Merfolk. I see the 5 basics in your deck, but you're still running 7 colorless lands and only 6 fetch to fix your mana. Elspeth is a great PW and Humility is vulnerable, but game-breaking, so I understand running those 4. But the 2 WoG effects just seem unnecessary. If you really want sweepers, play red. Firespout is better than EPlague in just about every possible matchup, unless the goblin decks you face play few Chieftains. Still, Firespout is an easier to cast WoG against Tribal, Survival, and kills almost everything vs. Zoo. Plus, REB in the board is additional Combo, Merfolk, and Control hate.
My overall suggestion is lower the mana-curve a bit. Red splash is just an idea, but 6 2WW spells is just brutal on your mana capabilities. Seeing as how you're trying to cast these 4 mana spells, I would swap 3 Wastes for 1 Flooded Strand, 1 Polluted Delta, and an additional U Sea.
You're meta has 5 decks in the Tier 1/2 range that require fast, efficient answers, and it looks like your taking a deck with a T2 mana-curve to a developed Legacy tournament. Also, you only have 17 U-cards to support Force in the MD. Post-side, that number will more-than-likely decrease even further. Decks like UG Survival can get away with running 15-16 U. We're a control deck, and we REALLY need a consistent FoW to stop T1 Vial, T2 Survival, and online Force all the time against TES. Every u-card you add to the deck (like Standstill and more Jaces) increases your chances of having the "OH SHI-, FORCE THAT" out that saves the day, instead of it being a 5-mana Counterspell.
Good luck!
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
I think this is inherently the wrong way to play against vengevine survival. Your better off playing superior cards and keeping survival off the table.I agree with Cannonist as a SB option for Combo. Most Tendrils lists in Legacy don't run Thoughtseize as more than a 1/2-of, so they can't Duress it and it can't be blasted with REB/Pyroblast. Just watch out for end-step Wipe Away/Krosan Grip/Disfigure. Those decks expect something like Meddling Mage from us and usually pack some removal for it post-side. Also, even though she isn't as effective of Vengevine hate as she used to be, she's still worth siding in for the match, forcing them to find their singleton Memnite/Shield Sphere.
When all else fails obviously humility is there to back a secondary plan. Or pleanty of stp effects, or extirpate in the wishboard if absolutely necessary.
If the inherent problem your facing is disruption on your mana base and spell pierce and daze, then why arn't you running a card that fixes this problem or atleast solves part of the disruption early, while mantaining the boardstate. My buddy hitman has discussed the merits of playing talisman of progress; and strangely enough, its excellent.Jaimie, why not cut a DoJ for a Standstill? You're running 6 spells that cost 2WW, and that just seems way too many for any fast, developed metagame. You need more T1 and T2 plays, especially if Gobs and Merfolk are a big part of your meta. I mean really, how do you expect to cast those cards through Waste and Port from Gobs, and Waste, Cursecatcher, Daze, Spell Pierce, and of course Force from Merfolk. I see the 5 basics in your deck, but you're still running 7 colorless lands and only 6 fetch to fix your mana. Elspeth is a great PW and Humility is vulnerable, but game-breaking, so I understand running those 4. But the 2 WoG effects just seem unnecessary.
Also six 4cc spells in a landstill arctype is not uncommon. Although I must say there was a time in which I played landstill that I had the ultra low curve average of 2.17
You do realize that the point of the paragraph was that Cannonist is an effective ANTI-COMBO card, correct? The part about VV is just a bonus.I think this is inherently the wrong way to play against vengevine survival. Your better off playing superior cards and keeping survival off the table.
When all else fails obviously humility is there to back a secondary plan. Or pleanty of stp effects, or extirpate in the wishboard if absolutely necessary.
I don't play Cannonist, because she's rather narrow, slow, and there are better cards for both matchups, like Pithing Needle, Nature's Claim, Peacekeeper, Spell Pierce, REB, etc. But if you were playing with Cannonist in the SB, would you not side it in for something weaker in your MD because it's the "inherently wrong way to play against VV Survival"? Even though it is UNARGUABLY effective at slowing down VV? That's the way your statement comes-off.
Six 4cc spells USED to be relatively common. But we're in the year 2010 now. The format has sped-up, with or without MT being banned. Merfolk is a Tier 1 deck now, not the dark-horse it used to be. VV Sur puts out fast, uncounterable damage with u-disruption to back it up. Goblins is still running 4 Waste/3-4 Port. Even The Rock is going to be discarding answers and blowing up our land while beating down with a Knight or Goyf. And the slower CB decks (where running high-cc spells was profitable for us) are a fraction as prevalent as they were a year ago.If the inherent problem your facing is disruption on your mana base and spell pierce and daze, then why arn't you running a card that fixes this problem or atleast solves part of the disruption early, while mantaining the boardstate. My buddy hitman has discussed the merits of playing talisman of progress; and strangely enough, its excellent.
Also six 4cc spells in a landstill arctype is not uncommon. Although I must say there was a time in which I played landstill that I had the ultra low curve average of 2.17
If your metagame gives you the slack necessary to run many high-cc spells and random, inconsistent, and easily-killed stuff like Talisman of Progress, more power to you. But in a developed metagame, with many Tier 1/2 decks represented, you're big-mana spells will more than likely be: 1) Spell Pierced/Dazed, 2) Forced, 3) Thoughtsiezed, 4) Griped/Bounced, or 5) Sitting in your hand as multiple Vengevines/Merfolk/Goblins/Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers beat you to death.
Last edited by Mana Drain; 11-09-2010 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Gramatical Errors
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
The problem is, if this deck doesn't run 4cc bombs, it falls apart. Landstill can not win if it isn't generating card advantage. There aren't many 1-2cc spells that generate card advantage, only Standstill (which, quite frankly, sucks in Vial infested meta). You're clearly not going to win if all you're doing is 1/1 trades (and 2 for 1 in case of FoW), simply because other decks run more threats and have less lands.
Running something like 12 stp effects IS NOT going to work, nope (even if you could).
Wrath of God is still a solid card that often wins games. In fact, I'd run it before I ever consider running JTMS. Yes, the curve has been lowered, and many decks require immediate answers, thus we are no longer running Akroma's Vengeances and Nevynirral's Disks. I myself run 4x stp 3pte 4x Snare for this very reason. But you really can't cut on the cards which provide CA and save your ass.
Anyways, the deck doesn't get into a lot of top8s nowadays, for the very reasons you described. However, if not for its 4cc cards, it would've sucked even more.
Thanks for the insightful replies :)
My main concern with replacing the Wasteland and adding a 4th standstill is that it is somewhat contradictional. Wasteland does make standstill a stronger card.
No wastelands makes Standstill very weak against Merfolk and the mirror (unless I have a top out and they have nothing yet). Wasteland has also won me a fair few games. However after cutting Vindicate my LD option has become weaker and it is more often used to destroy manlands, ports, keeping an opponent off a color etc.
However, only 4 colorless lands would make my manabase more stable (I think alot of goblin players don't play ports here, just wastes).
WoG is a nice out, it's almost never a bad draw in the mid-late game. Maybe 1 is enough, but I'm not completely sure on this one either. I could even cut both, but I really like having it as an out to alot of bad situations.
As for Canonist, it's by far my favourite card against TES. This is a very hard matchup preboard, but doable postboard with the canonists. I side it in against VV if I can find stuff to side out as it's not bad in the matchup. The Extirpates and Needles go in first though, and I don't have that much to take out (what would you side out?).
I'm not really considering a red splash just for firespout, I think I'd rather ran no sweepers at all. Although EE on 4 is another advantage.
@Tinefol: I'm not saying you can't run big-mana spells, just not 8-10 of them. Do you see the difference? And 1for1ing' then dropping Standstill or Jace is a very solid strategy. So solid, it's what winning Landstill lists(few and far between) have been doing for a while. Of course you need to hit CA in Landstill to win, that's why we run cards like EE, Elspeth, Jace, and Standstill. But you can't expect "I'll just live to 4 mana and win with all my powerful cards!" either. Because you won't, or your stuff will get countered/discarded, barring bad draws on your opponents part. This isn't the format where all you had to fear is T1 Lacky, go. And every deck and their brother has cards for us, like Choke, B2B, Grip, Needle, etc.
And please, quote me on this: Jace is the best win-condition Landstill has ever had and most likely, ever will have. Seriously, if you've played Jace for more than 3 games, you know this already. Not including him in your list for reasons other than budget constraints, is most likely incorrect. Especially over WoG. Against decks where you actually WANT WoG, Firespout is it for 2R. Easier to cast mana-wise in color and quantity, and 98% of the time, just as effective. Big creatures are what we have Swords and Path for.
@Jamie: I've got news for you, Standstill is terrible against Merfolk no matter what. Why? Because they run 3-4 Mutas, 4 Waste, AND 4 Vial. This is just one of those matchups where Standstill is only nice to see when you need a card to pitch to Force. Please, don't drop Standstill against Folk, unless you have 2+Manlands and they have no Vial and no Manlands/Wastes. I've been punished for this same mistake many times, and it just comes from getting greedy when you no you shouldn't.
Regardless, I'm tired of arguing about the big spells, and you're going to run what you want to run regardless of my counterpoints. I do suggest running a Tropical Island in the MD. This is a klaus signature special that I've been using for many months, and it has been mostly positive. It allows EE at 4 and 2 Grip in the SB, which handle a lot of randomness and are just plain versatile cards. EE at 4 is especially important if you have other LS decks in your meta. Blowing up opposing Jaces and Elspeths is the difference between winning and losing this matchup, and is a great tool on your side. I would say try it for a wasteland, but you know where this is going...
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
Mana Drain were on the same logic. Although I don't see too many cards in landstills natural shell that I would take out for cannonist if it was an option.
I think your vastly underrating Talisman.
Merfolk hasn't really changed in the landstill match-up minus running pierce instead of stifle, and another lord since I last played landstill. I think they used to run snare as well, but that was still in the development stages of the deck when snare was the sickness in the format. Goblins is goblins, and the matchup remains relatively the same as it used to be. When I last played landstill they had just succesfully figured out that chieften was a real card for the deck and that instigator wasn't where they wanted to go. The testing for these decks are about the same as they used to be. Still very aggressive decks that you need to be able to answer to have success in this format.Six 4cc spells USED to be relatively common. But we're in the year 2010 now. The format has sped-up, with or without MT being banned. Merfolk is a Tier 1 deck now, not the dark-horse it used to be. VV Sur puts out fast, uncounterable damage with u-disruption to back it up. Goblins is still running 4 Waste/3-4 Port. Even The Rock is going to be discarding answers and blowing up our land while beating down with a Knight or Goyf.
Now let me be clear, just because I stopped playing the deck in tournaments doesn't mean that I dropped the deck completely. I've been working with Mastershake and Pattrick, and Hitman82, and several other pilots on testing and integrating a solid landstill model into the metagame for a while. The format is not "faster" then it was when I left. It actually is slower for various reasons. Survival being the top deck in the format right now indicates that the format is in fact slower then it was in the days of cat zoo merfolk gobbos and combo. It is in fact slower as zoo is now having more success with "big Zoo" merfolk plays a lord that they invest mana into after they cast it, and are now splashing colors regularly (they weren't doing this really at all before)
and even countertop is running 4-5 colors pretty regularly (although not as much countertop has been seen outside of thopterfoundry combo)
the bottom line is this; Landstill is in good shape with the current format, no combo, really no dredge/ speed decks with price of progress IE cat zoo. All in all its a ripe format and time for landstill to clean up. Now we just have to devise a shell that actually works. Or just wait until Vengevine/ survival gets banned?
And the slower CB decks (where running high-cc spells was profitable for us) are a fraction as prevalent as they were a year ago.
If your metagame gives you the slack necessary to run many high-cc spells and random, inconsistent, and easily-killed stuff like Talisman of Progress, more power to you. But in a developed metagame, with many Tier 1/2 decks represented, you're big-mana spells will more than likely be: 1) Spell Pierced/Dazed, 2) Forced, 3) Thoughtsiezed, 4) Griped/Bounced, or 5) Sitting in your hand as multiple Vengevines/Merfolk/Goblins/Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers beat you to death.[/QUOTE]
You stated that even 6 4cc spells is about too much. Now its 8-10? Personally I run 7: 2Elspeth, 2WoG, 2 Humility and 1JTMS (I would've liked 3, but I can't afford to run nine 4cc cards). And JTMS is the card I'm going to cut, since it has the least impact on the board if i'm in a bad shape. Assume you face 3 creatures on opponent's end and you need an out. Would you want that out to be JTMS?
Except Standstill sucks. Its nearly unplayable in my meta of Vial and Wasteland. Its horrible, horrible against Merfolk and Dredge. Awful vs Goblins. It often sucks if you are going second. But that's much as we got.And 1for1ing' then dropping Standstill or Jace is a very solid strategy.
Somehow you don't consider Humility and WoG a card there?So solid, it's what winning Landstill lists(few and far between) have been doing for a while. Of course you need to hit CA in Landstill to win, that's why we run cards like EE, Elspeth, Jace, and Standstill.
I just don't see what you propose? Running less powerful cards so that you win less?But you can't expect "I'll just live to 4 mana and win with all my powerful cards!" either. Because you won't, or your stuff will get countered/discarded, barring bad draws on your opponents part. This isn't the format where all you had to fear is T1 Lacky, go. And every deck and their brother has cards for us, like Choke, B2B, Grip, Needle, etc.
I own Jaces, I've played with them and yet, they are not that good in UWx shell as they're in UBG(w) shell. And If I have a choice between WoG and Jace, I'm choosing WoG. You may think its incorrect, but in reality, WoG turns some games sideways (I've stated why before).And please, quote me on this: Jace is the best win-condition Landstill has ever had and most likely, ever will have. Seriously, if you've played Jace for more than 3 games, you know this already. Not including him in your list for reasons other than budget constraints, is most likely incorrect. Especially over WoG. Against decks where you actually WANT WoG, Firespout is it for 2R. Easier to cast mana-wise in color and quantity, and 98% of the time, just as effective. Big creatures are what we have Swords and Path for.
You propose Firespout. Clearly, IF I'm playing Spout, I'm playing more Jaces and no WoGs. But I don't want to play Firespout. Because it isn't even close to 98% of WoG effectivenes. I've played Spout a lot and clearly I didn't like for a bunch of reasons:
* it makes you run 3rd color extensively - putting constraints on your mana base and doesn't let you runn more basics
* it makes you commit in your splash color early. With UW I have the luxury of fetching all basics. With Spouts, I have to get Volcanic, which IS going to be wasted
* it sucks facing a bunch of big dudes like Goyf/KoTR. And sometimes you don't have enough STP effects. I have 7, mind you.
* it sucks against Merfolk. They either have a bunch of lords and don't care, or they waste your Volcanic and beat in. In fact, it even makes their S/B Blasts a real blasts.
* does nothing against Progenitus and Emrakul
* needs green to hit flyers - and that's relevant - coralhelm, tombstalker, blossom tokens, wondered crap, Clique, etc
Last edited by Tinefol; 11-10-2010 at 05:57 AM.
I do think the idea of the off color fourth land is decent. I've seen it work. Chris (mastershake) Team Bad Guys has used it. Oh I so promo'd the team there <----- See it?
Chris has done extremely well with the 4c variant. Now do I believe Landstill should be running 2 grips off color in its side and firespouts main? Absolutely not. That sounds like the nightmare that I don't want to dream on. While I am fond of the "always running the better card" approach, I feel like your taking it to an extreme by promoting an even worse landbase then I had imagined to reasonably cast such spells.
As for Jace the Mind Sculpter. I still believe FOF is the stronger choice. I've tested it, you brainstorm once, maybe twice or return a guy, and then it dies from all the games i've seen. Now i'm not saying it's not excellent. Anything that allows Landstill to play draw go and win the game is clearly excellent. But your not accounting for
-Aggresive decks that give jace the middle finger.
-Combo that clearly doesn't care about your ultra slow counterbalance.
-Control, which as you said is going to run cards that inherently can take care of jace, IE playing their own jace, vindicate (not really appearing lately) and other such answers like EE, just running more countermagic then you. The list goes on. Now this can be said for a variety of cards, but in the control machup decree clearly has an advantage over jtms, and elspeth is usually a bit better once resolves in a critical gamestate.
Jace is a fine card, but no more then 2, usually a 1 of. I think it follows the same logic as FOF, and sometimes can take your third FOF slot in redundant models.
Tinefol. Most of the crap you mentioned that firespout doesn't answer is stuff that is high on the priority of stp and path anyways. Wog is clearly the superior card when it comes to people who want to have answers for the big picture, IE a GP setting. Firespout seems to be more of a defined metagame/ side in answer. And even then it feels like from all the people who talk about it peacekeeper just seems stronger.
Now as for lists, this is currently what im toying with for fun. I'd clearly like to state that im testing different utility packages and seeing if they work. So far so good, but I need to do additional testing against the format before I really am happy.
also note 2. Top will probobly not be making my cut.
// Lands
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Island (2)
2 [B] Plains (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
2 [B] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [MM] Counterspell
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [US] Planar Void
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
I'd like to note that I couldnt find room for some of the natural selection that I usually choose IE FOF. Jace got the autoinclude because I needed a win condition and not extra card draw.
Missing 1 decree has been a pain, but I am told that it''s kind of bad in the meta right now.
@Moss: I think it's time for Disk to have a comeback. With all the permission/removal package, stalling the game into a Disk can be game-winning, although I feel that the list still needs 3 EE for sake of having a strong fight against Zoo/Gobs/Merfolks (vial mainly comes into mind). Maybe cut 2 tops for the 3rd EE and 2nd Decree? I've always played with/without 2 Tops, and I love them, but always felt that the list could do without them i.e. a list without top could do just as well except you don't get the security of having top especially when your opponents are Topping every turn.
I've been thinking of moving my Crucible to the SB and bring it in only against LD matchups. I've thought about Decree every now and then, but it always boils down to the 2nd-3rd Jace v.s. 2nd-3rd FoF. Recently, after looking at Jace v.s. Fact or Fiction, as much as I hate to say, the power level of FoF in Landstill outweighs Jace. Unlike Countertop, we can't slow roll and take things for granted, if we do we are severely punished. The deck doesn't have the engines like Countertop to lock people out. Landstill sometimes does that but more often it's a deck based on stabilizing, then capitalizing on huge card/board advantage. Cards that serve these purpose comes to my mind: Standstill v.s. Top, Decree v.s. Elspeth, Fact or Fiction v.s. Jace. We'll start noting that FoF, Standstill, Decree fits in a landstill theme much more than Top, Elspeth, Jace. However, Elspeth and Jace are making their way as MD'd 2-offs because they are simply strong cards in the format.
However, I am re-evaluating FoF in Landstill, and I personally think it's a mistake to drop them in the 75. I am playing with 2 FoF again. The card does much more for Landstill than Jace in a losing position and does more if not the same in a winning position. Take Walton's report (Mananation) for example. That single 'misplayed' EOTFOFYL still won him the game and because the card is so fucking broken, most opponents will do a 4-1 split of Jace v.s. 4 cards and you just pick up the 4 cards because it's 4-fucking cards that are good in your deck?? Also, Walton mentioned he had the Jace in hand, so it was really a 5 for 1 when he played FoF. No card in MTG gives that much advantage than FoF in landstill, although Landstill is usually the underdog in the format that is trying to beat the powerhouses out there.
I would like to hear more feedback about Walton's 4c Landstill. Somehow I feel that green for Deeds isn't justified although Green for Grips maybe especially in the Wishboard (I'm a fan of Ray of Revelation in green Landstill builds for the current meta i.e. countertop is unpopular deck now, and ray is faster against most threats Moon/B2B/Survival/Enchantresspwnage). I feel that Disk is old-tech but has the same speed/vulnerability as Deeds i.e. it gives the opponent 1 turn to react, but Disk is less mana-intensive, freeing up MORE mana the turn after when you activate, which is important to follow up with a threat or counterspell whereas Deeds you are short on mana for that turn. Disk can be recurred but that's an added bonus but I feel it is easier on the manabase without having to go into 4 colors.
@Anyone who doubts canonist, I think aside from Meddling Mage, she maybe the better answer against not only combo, but enchantress (problematic matchup).
IDEA:
Moss you mentioned Talisman in Landstill and I have been exploring that avenue in Landstill but have not tested it. Particularly I have been working with Mox Diamond/Crucible but they end up being terrible due to the wasted slots of Mox Diamond and putting a strain on land count in the deck. However, I recently was thinking about not Talisman, but Mind Stones in the deck. It speeds you up a turn (which is huge) but cantrips when needed later on. It taps for colorless but any deck with a solid manabase should not run into too many colored mana problems. The fact that it cantrips is why I feel it is stronger over Talisman. What do you think about the idea since I have not tested mana acceleration in Landstill, how many slots would you play and which slots would you play them in?
Let me put it this way, I feel as 5 4cc+ spells is pushing it. I currently run 4 (4 JaceTMS), and am satisfied with my ability to cast him. I understand big-spell setups like 2 Elspeth, 1 Jace, 2 Humility, but it feels to me like the Humility does the same thing as WoG in you're setup. In fact, if running 2 Humility, Firespout looks to be at an all-time high for effectiveness, having mad synergy with Humility and being a turn faster. WoG and Humility take up the same spot in my opinion. At the 3 creatures statement, this is why I run firespout and 4 EE. If I let my opponent get out multiple Tombstalkers, Knights, Gofys, whatever big creatures they have, I should have mulled, drew terribly, or just made some major misplays.You stated that even 6 4cc spells is about too much. Now its 8-10? Personally I run 7: 2Elspeth, 2WoG, 2 Humility and 1JTMS (I would've liked 3, but I can't afford to run nine 4cc cards). And JTMS is the card I'm going to cut, since it has the least impact on the board if i'm in a bad shape. Assume you face 3 creatures on opponent's end and you need an out. Would you want that out to be JTMS?
You know you don't need a manland out to cast Standstill right? Throw it down on an empty board and watch the game slow to a crawl, which is what we want. Most opponents will do everything in their power to stop you from drawing 3, and halt their gameplan as a result. Also, Standstills power increases exponentially if you run multiple Tops.Except Standstill sucks. Its nearly unplayable in my meta of Vial and Wasteland. Its horrible, horrible against Merfolk and Dredge. Awful vs Goblins. It often sucks if you are going second. But that's much as we got.
I do consider them both as card advantage, but feel there are better cards to run that I feel have more impact on the game or allow me to win faster (a major concern when playing with 40 minute rounds). As I said earlier, Humility and WoG use the same slots in my deckbuilding. I find Humility to be the far stronger and harder to deal with card, but still find other cards to be more versatile and consistent.Somehow you don't consider Humility and WoG a card there?
Running faster cards that allow you to take advantage of your CA spells quicker and stablilize sooner. My counter-point would be you running more powerful cards that you might not get to play so you die faster. Just because cheaper and easier to cast spells exist, doesn't mean they are less effective or powerful. You'll be looking pretty stupid when you tap out on T4 to cast your WoG and I tap my Island to Spell Pierce it, then swing in for some pain next turn with my creature deck (Merfolk, VV Sur). If you wait until T5/T6 to cast your big-spells to avoid Pierce/Daze, that's just more damage your opponents creatures put on you. Meanwhile I'll be resolving my Firespout on T4 with Spell Pierces of my own as protection.I just don't see what you propose? Running less powerful cards so that you win less?
I'll go through your points one by one:I own Jaces, I've played with them and yet, they are not that good in UWx shell as they're in UBG(w) shell. And If I have a choice between WoG and Jace, I'm choosing WoG. You may think its incorrect, but in reality, WoG turns some games sideways (I've stated why before).
(list of reasons)
*Third color extensively? I run 3 Volcs MD, to support my 2 Firespout MD, along with 1 Firespout and 3 REBs SB and I have NO problem getting my red. I hope you don't consider 3 lands "extensive" commitment to a color?
*Actually, I don't use my fetches until I need to. Saving them to find whatever color you need is a relevant tactic when playing this deck. When I need to fetch red for FS, I just do. Otherwise, they sit on the table, ready to provide a shuffle for Top/BS, safe from Waste, and effectively tap for any color of mana I need them to. And do you know what Volcanic Island is when you don't need red? Non-basic Island that pumps EE. Seriously, decks can only run 4 Wasteland, and more than likely, won't draw all 3-4 of them in the first 5 turns. If they waste a Volc, I have 8 fetches and 2 other Volcs to help.
*I lol'd at this one: Firespout sucks against Merfolk? Really? Now you're just trolling. I've stated this before and I'll state this again: if you let Merfolk get 3 lords out without Pathing/StPing/EEing/countering one them, you should have mulled the hand, have TERRIBLE luck, or you really don't have the skill necessary to play LS. Otherwise, Firespout is a 3 mana WoG vs. Merfolk.
*You're correct that it doesn't do anything against Prog or Spaghetti Monster. This is an acceptable risk that I take when playing Firespout. I accept a much better Tribal and Zoo matchup, to have a weaker Pro-Bant and SnT matchup, which are less common in a fast metagame. If you're meta has both of these decks in substantial quantities, WoG/Humility may be a solid choice. Also, both of those creatures only come out with the aid of a spell, and I run Spell Pierce because I hear it is pretty good against non-creature spells.
*Another reason I run singleton Tropical Island. And no, it doesn't significantly weaken the manabase to Wasteland. Also, saving Swords/StP for things Firespout can't pick up helps, and is another part of solid control play and planning ahead.
@ Moss: While Planar Void is simply amazing vs. Loam decks and Dredge, I find Extirpate to be more versatile and useful in a wide variety of matchups, while still being effective grave-hate. I don't know your SB strategy, so maybe you keep the wishes in against grave-decks, but if not, I would change 2 Voids to Extirpates. It still neuters Loam decks and is somewhat effective vs. Dredge, but straight kills VV Sur and is a great surprise for the mirror and TES/Storm. Nailing Force or a Win-Con from opposing LS decks is huge, and seeing what they have in hand/deck is also a bonus. Against TES, blowing up a DRitual and seeing what they have in store for you allows you to make adjustments to your gameplan, and may just nab something out of their hand. Maybe just personal preference I guess. Also, I'm glad to see Eternal Dragon still being played. Forcing opponents to keep in StP, guaranteeing land-drops, creating shuffles, and being an inevitable win-condition is pretty good I hear.
Last edited by Mana Drain; 11-10-2010 at 01:07 PM. Reason: I really need to start checking my punctuation.
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@ Moss: While Planar Void is simply amazing vs. Loam decks and Dredge, I find Extirpate to be more versatile and useful in a wide variety of matchups, while still being effective grave-hate. I don't know your SB strategy, so maybe you keep the wishes in against grave-decks, but if not, I would change 2 Voids to Extirpates. It still neuters Loam decks and is somewhat effective vs. Dredge, but straight kills VV Sur and is a great surprise for the mirror and TES/Storm. Nailing Force or a Win-Con from opposing LS decks is huge, and seeing what they have in hand/deck is also a bonus. Against TES, blowing up a DRitual and seeing what they have in store for you allows you to make adjustments to your gameplan, and may just nab something out of their hand. Maybe just personal preference I guess. Also, I'm glad to see Eternal Dragon still being played. Forcing opponents to keep in StP, guaranteeing land-drops, creating shuffles, and being an inevitable win-condition is pretty good I hear.[/QUOTE]
void handles the nonsense I care about. Nuetoring the deck that im already bringing in cards for and have maindecked cards for doesn't seem like a good idea. Changing my graveyard hate to additionally fight it seems like a bad idea as well. I don't feel like pate is good enough to handle the graveyard slot.
Void handles EVERYTHING. Hitman asked me if I had ever cast void against canadian thresh, and I said no; then proceded to die laughing as their 8 win conditions just sit there like zoo animals.
Combo is addressed just fine with Cannonists. Sure they may be running grip, wipe away. But the inherent problem is that if they bother running those cards against you then clearly they are having problems in more areas then just dealing with cannnonist. On the other side of things IF they get to B wish for an answer it was dead anyways. You still run an equivelent four, followed by a clock, with standstill and top? This should be enough pressure to keep them at bay. Frankly im more worried about mass goblin tokens or the god hand then if they can actuallly try to be interactive with me. Pate is alright against combo, but void still has warrant in more bad matchups.
Dragon is actually kind of bad right now but im overextending my colorless sources in this list so I feel its necessary. it is the 61st card.
Dragon is typically better in legacy formats where stifle is a big deal. I actually wish that was the case right now!
Compared to my earlier UWb list I could also drop black and add red. I'd run 2 Firespouts main instead of WoGs and 1 side (or should I run 4 divided over main and sb?). I'd play 2 volcanics which all of my 7 fetches can get. I'd still be running wastelands.
I'd play Peacekeepers in the side, which is a nice out to VV and Merfolk. But people play a fair bit of goblins. Should I add 2 Blue Blasts side?
I'd be running this sb:
4x Canonist
3-4x Peacekeeper
3x Needle
2-3 Blue Blast
1x Fspout
1x Telemin Performance
Or do you think a 4c version is better? With Extirpate and Plague side, but no black main. You can get EE@4 and some nice sb cards, but you go down to only 4-5 colorless so your standstill is slightly worse. I'd run 1 Sea, 1 Scrubland and 2 Volcanics (4 Strand, 3 Delta as fetches). Red would be used for 2:1 Firespouts and EE@4 and nothing else.
A sideboard would be about this: (Or should I play peacekeepers in this as well?)
4x Canonist
3x Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Needle
1x Fspout
1x Telemin Performance
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