Interesting board! Couple questions:Originally Posted by 1maarten1
Advantages of Choke over Leyline?
Applications of Vengevine?
Why no champion?
Why Reverent silence over 2 more grips?
1. I find choke to be a card that is usefull in more matchups then leyline, since choke can also help you lock out your opponent if they try to play something mass removal-ish, like in the Landstill matchup.
2. I found this to be the #1 card to beat mass removal, it rocked.
3. I never had that much trouble with agro (that ran enough forests to make him viable)
4. Its free :) And it removes ALL, for that random enchantress deck in the meta ;) And it wont get countered by CB probably.
Generally speaking, running Leyline in a deck with 16-18 initial mana sources is a pretty bad idea overall. Counters really aren't the problem cards in the control matchup but rather the combination of sweepers and card advantage. Reverent Silence is obviusly not to lose tempo against counterbalance, albeit somewhat risky in my opinion as Grip still gets the job done and it does nothing against Chalice.
Ya that's a good point about Leyline. I guess the advantage for me against decks that are heavy on counters or top was that if swap them with glimpses you have an uncounterable aggro deck. They HAVE to out aggro you in this case and they can't. It does not help with mass removal though, which has been by far my biggest obstacle to overcome.
So I might play the deck in the near future (played it in Vintage) and got some questions:
1. How good is the deck without Glimpse. In Vintage you have another 4 Clamp, but here you have only 4 Glimpse and 3 Lords, which seems like a pretty weak aggro mode.
2. Do you use Pact as a Lord tutor sometimes?
tnx in advance
Hey man,
The glimpses, Regal Force, and lords give you enough card draw/aggro options to make this deck a serious contender in legacy. I really don't know that much about vintage, but I do that adding 4 clamps would make this deck nearly untouchable in legacy. Clamps improve this deck a pretty insane amount.
Also, remember that Warcaller is a lord too so there are 4 lords maindeck, and 1 sideboard (champion)
Hello, new to TheSource. I play mostly legacy, but have few opportunities for tournaments, therefore I do most of my playing on MWS.
My current Elves! Combo deck:
Llnaowar Elves x4
Fyndhorn Elves x4
Birchlore Rangers x4
Nettle Sentinel x4
Heritage Druid x4
Imperious Perfect x4
Quirion Ranger x4
Elvish Visionary x3
Sylvan Messenger x2
Wirewood Symbiote x3
Regal Force x1
Summoner's Pact x3
Glimpse of Nature x4
Grapeshot x1
Forest x15
Sideboard
Vexing Shusher x1
Viridian Shaman x1
Elvish Champion x2
Krosan Grip x2
Tormod's Crypt x3
Autumn's Veil x3
Winter Orb x3
A couple of questions for the forum:
1) What is the best 2nd tutor option? (Weird Harvest, Chord of Calling, Worldly Tutor, or Elvish Harbinger)
2) Is Mirror Entity worth putting in maindeck? I've tried it as a secondary win/con, just to push damage through with 3/3 or better elves attacking in an alpha strike, but I just don't like waiting a turn to pull it off.
3) Burst of Speed...is it worth playtesting so if Grapeshot gets hosed (like with Mindbreak Trap) I can still attack FTW?
Thanks in advance...hope I can get some great info from some more experienced players.
1) There is debate over the best second tutor option, but in my opinion, and I think my build might be pushing the archetype in a new direction, all other tutors are too slow. 4 Pacts is enough, you just have to be prudent about using them when not comboing. I have played this archetype for a long time and see no reason for a second tutor.
2) No. No no no no no. There are surely others who disagree with me on this, but I can say quite confidently that I will smoke any build with mirror entity in it. It's just too slow, it doesn't help you combo, and therefore has no place in this deck. The reason the Archdruids are good is because they help the aggro backup WHILE helping you combo also.
3)No. If you are going to do that then just play concordant crossroads. Also, grapeshot is not the greatest wincon. If you are going to storm tendrils is better in every single way (you will never be able to stormkill for grapeshot without having the mana for tendrils), but above that, Emrakul is even better. He is def the best way to go.
Also, looking at your build, I would highly recommend cutting the messengers and imperious perfects for 3 Archdruids, one more pact, one warcaller, and another symbiote
Speaking of secondary tutor, ruckus has introduced a list that uses Survival of the Fittest as the secondary tutor. He's had success with it on MTGO.
I really wish ruckus has any updates on that deck. I was gonna work on Combo Elves but I have been preoccupied with Quinn.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Ruckus' build is more consistant, but if you know when to mulligan mine will get you a turn 3 goldfish 75% of the time, and a turn 2 just under 20% of the time. Is it worth it for the extra consistency when this build is so much faster?
Ruckus' build is more consistant, but if you know when to mulligan mine will get you a turn 3 goldfish 75% of the time, and a turn 2 just under 20% of the time. Is it worth it for the extra consistency when this build is so much faster?
Yes, cause in the real world you don't get to goldfish or hit your glimpse 75% of the time on your opening 6-7, which means another win condition (weird harvest, survival, etc.) is not only a great idea, but is necessary to have a consistent deck. If your Glimpse of Nature gets countered or discarded, your decklist doesn't have much going on. Lord + beats isn't a threat versus a lot of the tier 1 decks. I don't understrand the Archdruid at all, it is extremely slow for the combo and playing 3-4 lords doesn't provide a solid beatdown plan. Survival, Storm, even Zoo and Merfolk will either don't care or have a stronger army. The Pact for Regal Force plan is also no easy task to solve, so I wouldn't call it a second engine.
Thank you for the response!
1) A 4th Pact it is.
2) That's what my playtesting showed, Mirror Entity was just a waste. I was distracted by trying so desperately hard to make him work, and losing too many games because of it.
3) Concordant Crossroads wants Elvish Archdruid for mana explosion. At that point, I would NEED to add in Weird Harvest to have a mana sink, and I don't want that many slots dedicated to a secondary win/con.
I will get the 4th Symbiote in there (along with the 4th Pact) dropping the Sylvan Messengers to do that. I'm curious about the Tendrils idea...I haven't tested it yet, but it has some promise, if only for the lower storm count. I just always figured if I could get a 10 storm count, getting a 20 storm count wasn't hard once the Glimpse-train was rolling.
Elvish Visionary...do I need 4?
In the real world merfolk and zoo cannot keep up. I know this because I beat them nearly every time. I have played this deck extensively in tournaments and the only problem that arises is sweepers. It IS an engine, and a much faster, more efficient engine than survival, you just have to get used to it.
Survival may not care, but that doesn't matter cause I have played survival 5 different rounds in tournaments and never even lost one game. My build smokes them in every single way.
The build beat zoo and merfolk 75% of the time.
Storm is only legitimate concern. ANT's goldfish is slightly faster than mine, but that doesn't help your argument because adding consistency (and only a tiny bit of consistency at that) does not help the storm matchup. Actually, it makes it worse since it slows the deck down.
As for Archdruid, every useful 1 drop elf is in the deck. you have to fill these slots, and the debate comes between priest and archdruid (since you want as many creatures as possible to ensure the combo keeps going). I have never had an opportunity where I could not have cast an archdruid and would have been able to cast a priest when I should. There is always a way to get him out. He is in the deck because (and I have done this multiple times in tournaments) in addition to helping mana for the combo, with an untapper, you can hardcast emrakul on turn 3 without glimpse. It is awesome. And it happens a lot more than it sounds like it would. He is also useful for bouncing warcaller back into your hand with symbiote and recasting him kicked some insane amount of times.
Thus, your wincons are combo, hardcast emrakul, summon regal force, or go aggro (in that order). One of these is always an option, and it is almost always one of the first two.
Mr. Safety- I would highly recommend 4 visionaries. If you are running out of creatures mid combo, casting them, summoning them, or bouncing them with symbiote and recasting them is a very efficient way to keep going.
k2thej - thanks, 4 it is.
I also agree with the comments about zoo/fish keeping up. Survival can best be described as a slow combo deck...consistent to the bone, but slow. Elves is designed to be fast, at both win/cons (storm combo & aggro)
Exactly, and if you can get elves to combo turn 75% of the time, you're going to beat survival, cause 3/4 games you are gonna combo before they can do anything.
I'd just like to chime in regarding the engines.
Glimpse of Nature is the preferred card. It's more cost-effective than Survival, and when your deck is streamlined (such as k2thej's list) it works incredibly well.
Survival gives you repeatable and consistency, but it's slower. See the EPIC Survival Elves thread for more on this.
Summoner's Pact is also very good in this metagame. It it like a one-shot Survival w/o the costs. If you intend to win this turn via attacks, Grapeshot, or Emrakul; then it's almost no risk.
Natural Order gives you a 2-clock. It doesn't really fit into the combo, but is a good Plan B.
My latest Elves list ran:
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Survival of the Fittest
2 Summoner's Pact
SB: 3 Natural Order/1Pro
Since there are multiple threads for each flavor of Elves, I suggest you check them out for different strategies.
Aggro Elves
Combo Elves
EPIC Survival Elves
NO Elves
However at this point, I feel that there is more power in G/x VV Survival lists than Elves. This is not backed by testing, but from experience. Particularly since both Elves and VV are vulnerable to Black decks with Perish and E.Plague, I would rather play the deck that has more attack power (VV).
I don't agree that the Zoo matchup is as good as other have stated. We run minimal amounts of land and rely on Mana Elves to make up for it. Zoo typically runs at least 8 removal spells which interfere with that plan. Backed up by large beaters means it makes it extremely hard to recover in time.
I do agree that when it comes to Beatdown vs Elves, as long as attack steps don't kill you, you ignore them.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
All great points. I think the only place I would disagree is in the survival matchup. Since both are affected by these black decks, we have the advantage of being able to go off in one turn and win before their perish matters. This seems like a sizable advantage.
How exactly does this combo finish go? Is it about getting a warcaller that fat into play or how should I look at it?
In my meta people are starting to run peacekeeper. How does this get solved?
The combo works by building up enough mana to cast Emrakul. Peacekeeper definitely poses a problem, though if you win with a storm kill instead that problem is solved.
Also, if you are on the play you might be able to combo before he gets on the field.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
