Tabernacle isn't AS good against Zoo unless you're playing Stax. Tabernacle does tax their manabase, but they're still able to swing in. I mean, obviously combined with Ghostly Prison it's better, but I'm sure they will have boarded in Grips against Deed, and if not, they have Qasali's for your lonely Ghostly Prison. Tabernacle is good in Stax because of the overall deck design of taxing creatures, manabase, and attacking, but here, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if they run enough guys to make that worth it.
If you're having trouble with Zoo, Finks and Sanctity should be able to get you there. Suppression field kills them as well, but not sure if you want to run it.
Also, I was thinking about Storm as I made the list about where Leyline of Sanctity is good, but forgot to put it down. My bad. TES is coming back, especially since it blows Survival out of the water, and many decks aren't prepared enough for it.
Woo, post 1001 of the thread :P
-Matt
i definitely love the idea of dueling grounds, with maze and our fat beats, it is definitely a way to battle fish, goblins, and even dredge as well if you want^^, actually all the matchups i had problems with till now, i think dueling grounds will definitely find a way in my sideboard, at least to test how it works.... i think as a 2-of
I've been playing the following list happily for the last few weeks:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
2 Path
4 Vindicate
3 Top
1 Pulse
0/1 Deed
It differs from Junk with a few reasons:
No Mox Diamonds, but instead Noble Hierarch. You win more Goyf battles here, but it doesn't pump Goyf (if you discard Mox to pump). I like the Exalted trigger, but doesn't allow for a turn 1 2-drop. I don't think it's necessary.
Less Gerrard's Verdict, more Path. I like Path more in this slot, takes care of Vengevine.
Eternal Witness added in gives me a little bit more reuse-ability of spells, such as Swords and Path.
Bog/Maze are great for us, so I'm using them. Could be Karakas if need be.
My manabase is more stable with more Basics and more mana producing land. A trade-off for Wastelands. I prefer the stability, especially against the abundance of Tribal.
Other than that, it's pretty good, just different.
-Matt
Hi guys,
I'm thinking of taking this list to the open dutch legacy championships tomorrow, it's kind of a mash-up of the old enlightened rock and "Dark Horizons" lists.
3x Scrubland
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
3x Salt Marsh
3x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Maze of Ith
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Oblivion Ring
sb:
4x Duress
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Runed Halo
1x Dueling Grounds
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Choke
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Crucible of Worlds
I haven't taken this list to a tournament yet, but it did pretty well in (admittedly limited) testing.
against:
Zoo: 4-1
Goblins: 3-2
Merfolk: 1-2
Emrakul combo: 2-0
Vengevine: 1-0
I stopped using Engineered Plagues after I noticed them not really cutting it anymore.
Against merfolk they're just underwhelming unless you get 2 on the board before them getting any lords (good luck with that)
Against goblins they do something but not as much as say a Ghostly Prison or Dueling Grounds.
I'm not sure of the Explosives in the main. That's kinda an everchanging slot. It's been a Duress, Jitte, Witness and now an Engineered Explosives. I suppose I could make it a Karakas if I can get a hold of one.
What do you folks think?
Team Es Kann Fliegen; not having a clue since 2007
I don't like the O ring main but I guess it's for the emrakul combo or sneak attack?Originally Posted by TiB
In my humble opinion your list has a bad MU against the mirror or like brad's list since he has a lot of discard effects.
Anyway if your meta is zoo, goblins I think your list is fine. And you're right dueling grounds is a nightmare against goblins. I've seen it in action :)
Haven't really tested the mirror, rock variants seem to be not really popular around here atm.
But yeah I guess that'd be bad news for me. I just don't really like playing with so many discard spells myself. The problem is just that all those spells are essentially dead in the lategame, especially with the aggro metagame that's going on now. Also the power of discard is less in legacy than for example in standard because the card quality is generally so high; one topdeck can ruin your game anyway.
The O-Ring is there because often I just wanted to get rid of something and got stuck with just a Tutor in my hand. The ring solves that problem nicely I think. The splash damage against Emrakul is just gravy :P
What do you people think I should run in the open slot in my list (that has an Engineered Explosives I'm not entirely happy with right now)?
Team Es Kann Fliegen; not having a clue since 2007
Armageddon! :D Otherwise, either another Deed, Damping Matrix or E. Tutor.
If Survival is going to be big, I'd suggest trying out Identity Crisis. Somewhat high curve, but leaves them dead in the water when resolved.
Hello, everyone. I am from Hong Kong.
Just finished in a Local store 12-man tourney ending in Top4.
Use exactly the same list with the one in starcity event last week with some minor amendment in sideboard.
I don't like Mox Diamond at all. It is quite a dead card if it is not in your opening hand.
I think i will use Noble Hierach instead.
and i find this deck has troublesome when facing powerful enchantments.
I lost to CounterTop Thopter in Top4. Moat and The Abyss got me. Both games I die to Jace's Utimate...
I Sided in Choke, Engineered Plague and Deed. All show up. but i don't have ways to remove his Jace since Deed can't remove it
i saw none EE and Vindicate both games...I think Elsepth should deserve a place in this deck....
I stated the same early, as I play with Hierarchs, trying a combination of 3x Hierarchs and 2 moxes. So far, still not impressed with Mox.
I feel that either Krosan's Grip or Nature's Claim would be good S/B cards.
I myself am not sure what to do about Planeswalkers other then trying to use Pulse or Vindicate or S/B in Pithing Needle. Anyone have suggestions for Planeswalkers? I know when I played Rock in Standard, I used either Vampire Hexmage or Pithing Needle for them.
For Thopters, run Engineered Plague/Deed (naming Thopters). Also, I run 4 Vindicate 1 Pulse, but I used to run 2 Pulse and never had trouble with Thopters. For dealing with Jace, side in Leyline of Sanctity so he can't target you. Then Deed away their Counterbalance/Enchantments and Vindicate him if you can.
I think Leyline is your best bet because you can play it on turn 0 without fear of it being countered. Also, you could Engineered Explosives on 4 if you played Mox Diamond but again, I think Hierarch is better.
-Matt
to be honest i did not test leyline yet, but i am not very sold on the idea of mulling into her, simply because it is only good against combo, not for control-matchups, i think there would be a better card for that slot
just pointing out, for example runed halo would solve the jace-problem as well, and would still be a usefull card in the combo matchup, naming tendrills, and it would be even possible playing it 1st turn if you have mox diamond main
just my 2 cents
i just noticed that dueling grounds even helps the vengevival-matchup as well, funny this card seems just like its made for this deck
Every once in a while, having knowledge of every janky and semi-playable card out there serves me well! :)
I wouldnyt run it against GW Vengevival though; they can just string walla into Pridemage, trigger vines off the Pridemage and then eat your Groiunds. Still, I've always felt that the Vengevival matchup is generally positive. GW is definitely the more difficult to beat; they can match us pound for pound in the fat department, but even there, Extirpate can often cut them off of a given fatty.
I've been considering moving from Hierarch in the board to the new Baloth with the pitch trigger. I'm loathe to switch from GW to the more difficult GG requirement for mana, but for the mirror, it makes it scary to Hymn me and Verdict downright dead. I'm also thinking of cutting the Sejiri Steppe and a Wasteland for a pair of Horizon Canopies, or perhaps 1 Canopy and a second Savannah. I've only used Steppe once or twice since it's inclusion and both games couldve been won without it although it would've taken longer. Generally, if I've got KotR on board long enough to use him, I'm winning the game anyway. That would help with color requirements.
well grounds could at least help a lot against the UG-Vengvival-deck, since they have only trygon predator to get rid of it once its in play, and we have got maze of ith to stop that
against the GW lists dueling grounds would be awefull, as you said, they would just get their pridemage and there goes the dueling grounds
i tried multiple horizon canopys in the manabase, actually it is not that awesome in my opinion
i have 1 horizon canopy maindeck, and no savannah, i think the savannah is not needed, but i would not cut the sejiri steppe, because it makes sure that your knight for example sticks longer, or it pushes the last 6-8 damage throught for the win
i think sejiri steppe is very important to protect one of your guys specially because we do not have a lot of big threats anyway (8 is not that much, compared to how many other decks have)
It has been my experience that sejiri steppe blows. It comes in handy only in a very specific situation which very rarely comes up: say 1 in 50 games. There are times when I may need to top deck a land or start with it in my opening hand and that comes into play tapped is just horrible how much it slows us down. I tried the 1 steppe and have since replaced it with 1 horizon canopy. The only cipt land I run is bojuka bog, and as I'm sure you all know... is pretty sick a lot of times, making it worth the comes into play tapped downfall.
Tib, I noticed in your list you have 3x salt marsh... I can't quite figure out why this is. I'm guessing these are supposed to be marsh flats?
Agreed. I played Bant in Standard with KoTR and Steppe really was a bad xp. Even with 2 of them, they did not really pay off. Good once in awhile, at times, it was game changing. (I.E - swing for lethal w/ one time protection)
actually i am quite surprised you had so much bad expierience with sejiri steppe, this land helped me out quite a few times, and as long you only use one CIPT land it does almost not matter because you will not be slowed down in any way (if you fear this, just pitch it to mox) but in my expirience more than one will slow you down and hinder your developement drastically thats for sure
i for my part have been not that overwhelmed by bojuka bog, sure it is i would say the best utility land we have access to, but only for particular matchups, for this reason i am running one in my sideboard to replace steppe if needed in game 2 and 3, but steppe is mainboard simply to be able to punch the lethal with one time protection, ... maybe i chose steppe over bog due to playstyle i don't know
i think i should do more testings with both lands, but i would love to hear more about other people expiriences with Bojuka Bog and Sejiri Steppe
one thing i was wondering about... actually, since i changed to the "Dark Horizons"-list it was allways dark confidant i wanted to see every game, i even won a game only on the back of 2 confidants and a divining top, simply because of me allways drawing removal and discard the same time, and just punching with the 2 bobs, ...... the question now is, what other options do we have to provide more draw (horizon canopy not counted, since its usefulness is more in mid-late-game, i would need something that would fit the early midgame)
if someone may have a reasonable suggestion, i would consider changing the 2 verdicts for more draw
Creature wise? Spell wise we have Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood. I used them with my original list but with the Thoughtseizes and either of those two, you end up spending a lot of life that ended up hindering me. Could try it again since I've changed my original OP decklist a bit since posting.
Phyrexian Arena?
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
Arena is very close to the next best thing. At one more mana, if you have a higher curve, you needn't worry about Top, is harder to destroy, and saves you life (depending on your curve).
If you want more draw, auto replace Verdicts for Arenas.
-Matt
I would like some advice on my list
6 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
2 Grassland
1 Murmuring Bosk
3 Tainted Field
3 Tainted Wood
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ovegrown Tomb
3 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Eternal Witness
4 Loxodon Hierarch
SB:
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Engineered Plague
2 Gerrard's Verdict
3 Choke
4 Leyline of the Void
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