Seems to me like you're going for a control build of the Rock, and for that, I approve.
First thing you'll need to do is upgrade to revised duals and fetchlands. If affordability is an issue, run proxies when you can, and Ravnica duals or borrow Revised ones when you can't proxy. Revised duals and real fetchlands (not Mirage ones, Onslaught and Zendikar) are miles better in terms of consistency and speed.
To be honest, I'm not sure why you're running the Factories. Several reasons why they're good: they produce mana, they block, etc. But, you have no way to search them, and they produce colourless mana in a colour-hungry deck. I suggest more Fetchlands and less basics.
You're also running 22-23 Lands, which is great. You always want to have a bit of extra land to either have Wastelanded away or Stifled. You want a stable manabase in this deck.
My changes for your manabase:
1 Volrath's Stronghold (and possibly a Maze of Ith)
2 Swamp
4 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
------
Maindeck is very interesting, I'm loving the Elspeths backed with Deed. It reminds me very much of Landstill. One note: Thoughtseize is a lot better than Duress because it can grab many of the things Duress can't, namely creatures. Getting rid of a Goyf early on and saving a Swords can be worth a ton. The life seems to be inconsequential, as you're playing Hierarchs.
Change: -3 Duress, +4 Thoughtseize.
You're not really a fast deck, so I'd take out the Verdicts and make room for some more board control. Hymn is fine here. -2 Gerrard's Verdict.
4 Swords, good. 4 Pulse? Pulse is good, but it doesn't hit lands. I suggest running 3 Vindicate 2 Pulse, or 4 Vindicate 1 Pulse, or 4 Vindicate 2 Pulse if you're feeling brave. Vindicate hits tricky lands like Maze of Ith/Rishadan Port, but I can see where Pulse has definite advantages.
I'm assuming we're doing the design around 4 Deeds as your board control element, so I won't change this, as it's very good. But, watch out: it can be a tad slow at times, so use other destruction spells accordingly.
Basilisk Collar seems out of place, and seems like it's going to cry to Deed all the time. -1 Collar.
I'd up your Elspeth count, considering you're playing a full set of Deeds. I'd go to 2 or 3.
3 Phyrexian Arena is the way to go here, methinks.
Nantucko Shade I believe is not the way to go, unfortunately. He'll constantly get blown up by Deed. I suggest Knight of the Reliquary, as he gets very big very quickly, and allows you to make him bigger and bigger.
Hierarch and Witness seem good. Stronghold, Deed, and Witness allow for recurring Deed loops, which pretty much ruins anyone's day.
As well, I advise the use of at least 2-3 Sensei's Divining Top. They give you a bit more consistency and allow you to filter much better. It stops you from being in topdeck mode too often.
So, for the main:
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Eternal Witness
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Pernicious Deed
+1/2 Slots open (depending if you want to go up to 61 cards or not). I suggest putting in 2 Tops.
In total:
1 Volrath's Stronghold (and possibly a Maze of Ith)
2 Swamp
4 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Eternal Witness
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
-------
As for your Sideboard, you won't really know until you play it more, but a few key points in today's metagame:
1. Survival Vengevine is very popular, and in many tournaments you'll face it often.
2. Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk are very popular decks which are very fast.
3. Combo decks prey on the above listed decks, so they'll be around as well.
I think you should gear up to face Vengevine and combo in your board, as it'll help the most in bad matchups. With this much maindeck destruction, you should plow through most midrange decks. Aggro and combo are going to be somewhat troublesome I suspect.
To fight combo, you have to play discard or protection or Counterspells. Running 8 discard in the main is excellent, but more in the board doesn't hurt. +3 Duress.
To fight Zoo, you need lifegain or protection. Hierarch has you covered, as would Kitchen Finks, which pairs very well with Deed. Leyline of Sanctity does many duties against Burn, Zoo, Combo, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Wheel of Sun and Moon, etc.
+4 Leyline of Sanctity, or + 3/4 Kitchen Finks if you're in a heavy Zoo metagame.
To combat tribal, use cheap efficient removal, mass removal, or Engineered Plague. Path to Exile in the board improves your Vengevine matchup, but Goblins can get taken down hard by Engineered Plague.
+4 Engineered Plague, or possibly +3 Path to Exile.
You need some cheap, efficient Grave hate. Leyline of the Void fits this well, as does Extirpate. At the moment, Extirpate is a bit better, as it's harder to get around. Extirpate hits Loam decks and Vengevine very hard, as does Combo (you can remove a key piece in an Ill-Gotten Gains loop). Leyline is easily destroyed by Trygon Predator, Grip, Nature's Claim, etc. Leyline is better against Dredge, though. But, considering you have 4 Deeds, I'd go with +4 Extirpate.
You board looks something like:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
Obviously this is just a suggestion, I don't know your metagame. Let me know what you think.
I'm sorry to other people that I don't go this in depth, but I honestly had an hour to kill just at the right moment
-Matt
After a 150 player tournament I made the following observations and I would like to share them with you:
Elspeth, Knight-Errant is amazing. Run 2 if you are not already.
Pernicious Deed; I love this card, but it is just too slow in this meta. Having to blow up your Pithing Needle or Bob SUCKS. 2 Engineered Explosives in the main are better and a couple of Deeds in the side.
Sensei's Divining Top is good, but max 2 main.
Qasali Pridemage should be in this deck. He is the only way to deal with Survival of the Fittest FAST.
Therefore, my recommended list would be:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
Thanks for all those suggestions on the deck. I am working on a budget so that's why I'm not using things like thoughtsieze and original Duals. I would be able to get another phyrexian arena, the D tops, KotR and a few more fetches but that's about it. I'm wondering though if Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek is a better thoughtseize replacement. I'll be playing the deck this saturday and I'm not sure what the meta will be like, although I hear Zoo, fish and deadguy are popular decks at that place. Also I'm wondering if worldly tutor or enlightened tutor have any place in this deck as I have playsets of both and wondering if I should use them.
Definitely Inquisition. The scariest thing for Rock is a balls fast aggro deck. Being able to strip Goyf or Nacatl will make a bigger difference in your win % than being able to hit NO or FoW.
Charos: Elspeth is great, but I never want to see her in my opening. Completely agreed on Deed. Sad that it's too slow, but there you have it. Still in board for midrange MUs where it wrecks house. Honestly though, I can't see running less than 3 tops. Against anything that's not Zoo, I want top to be my turn 1 on the play and usually my turn 1 or 2 on the draw.
Originally Posted by Draener
Isn't Extirpate the fastest way to deal with Survival..?
On topic: Michael Melnick also sported Aven Mindcensor in the board at the SCG Boston Open. I'm probably going to test this as a 2-of at my next tourney. It seems like it could be good against a variety of decks.
Of course. Though not enough. Qasali gives 3-4 more outs against them and helps against painful matchups like Stax.
What I don't understand is why I'm the only person maining Extirpate. It's so good in so many MUs.
Has anyone tested The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale as a 1 of in the maindeck?
-Jimmy
I read a couple pages back, but only saw discussion in regard to zoo. If I need to thumb back further, lemme know.
Here is my opinion about sejiri for dark horizon deck I don't like it that much even though it can be pitch by Kotr. It is like a one time big time deal and if you have it in your first few turns then it will only slow you down a a turn.
I run sejiri and bog in my 4c loam list since I can pitch it with kotr and reused it multiple times.
I suggest sylvan library as a draw engine for this deck.
I run with 2 M/D and 1 in S/B. It is M/D worthy, whether you get a fetchland or goyf, it's helpful.
I agree that Extirpate is main deck worthy when you're playing the 10x discard spells. The problem is that the list is so tight, there really isn't anything that I would want to take out for it. I mean everything else that you play is an answer (vindicate, EE, deed, swords) or a win condition (goyf, bob, kotr). We already agree that this deck is short on threats, so none of those can go. When it comes down to it, I really don't want to get rid of an answer to put in it's place a potential answer (extirpate).
I say potential answer because there are a lot of times it does next to nothing: goblins, merfolk, zoo, any control deck... There's only a very small percentage of matchups where it really shines, that's why you keep it in the sideboard.
I have tried Tabernacle in the main, and it isn't worth it. It's similar to extirpate which only has a couple matchups where it shines, and therefore best in the sideboard.
I find Tabernacle is only useful against Empty the Warrens, because with everything else you don't tax their manabase enough. If you play more LD however, then I think it'd be perfectly suitable.
@Aven Mindcensor
I was running him back when Reanimator was on Top, and it did very well. The only thing I'm hesitant about him is his fragility, but I'd be willing to give him a shot.Hhowever, I feel Extirpate is a more solid answer.
-Matt
I tried yesterday the Brad Nelson version (basically identical list, -1 Deed, +1 Mox) and felt it is a bit light on threats. I played a dozen or more matches vs various aggro-controls, and often happened to lose game were I was in full control for the lack of a finisher. I even managed to lose a game were my opponent had no cards in hand, nothing on the board except lands, I had 2 Vindicates and a top. I think the deck could benefit from an extra monster or two. Anybody thought about this? I was thinking of adding 2x Terravores, I'm just not sure what to cut. Even though I like Verdicts a lot, the decks probably plays too much discard, so they're the first candidates to go. Any suggestion or comment?
Team Stimato Ezio: You're off the team!
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
-Kierkegaard
i thought of the exact same thing that the deck could use another beater, but i am not sure if terravores are the right choice, they shrink with the exact same hate as our other beaters, and i do not like that at all, ...... but at the same time i love gerrards verdict, basically i love it to allways have a at least 2nd turn discard 2 even if hymn is sooooooo much better
i would say these two slots are depending a bit on your meta, i was thinking of putting loxodon hierarch if burn or zoo heavy meta, elspeth or terravor for a unknown one, verdict if controll- or combo-heavy meta, even if its aggro-control verdict works fine, but i will at least try out the 2 terravores maybe
if you do, tell me about your experience with them please
I will definitely try the terravores as a first attempt, and see how tey work. Elspeth is also an interesting choice, I will try her as second. As soon as I can get more testing I'll let you know the results!
Team Stimato Ezio: You're off the team!
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
-Kierkegaard
Whoops, I always do that. Marsh Flats seems better in here yeah :P
So anyway I was at the dutch open legacy championships on sunday, with 208 people starting. I went 1-3-4...
ended up playing this:
3x Scrubland
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
3x Marsh Flats
3x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Maze of Ith
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Thoughtseize
1x Duress
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Dueling Grounds
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Oblivion Ring
sb:
3x Duress
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Runed Halo
1x Pithing Needle
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Choke
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Damnation
1 Ooze Survival 1-1
G1: finds triple Vengevine on turn 3 and I die.
G2: In comes the hate. I get down a Peedle on Survival and a Dueling Grounds. He eventually manages to remove the Peedle and tries to go for the Ooze kill. I fetch up a Bog with KotR and remove his Phyrexian Devourer and Triskelion. He scoops 'em up.
G3: I deadlock him again with assorted hate cards but haven't got enough time to push through for the win.
2 Dream Halls 1-1
G1: I die turn 2 by Dream Halls shenanigans and a False Cure/Beacon of Immortality.
G2: He goes S&T into Progenitus and gets one hit in. I land a Halo. I 'Seize and Duress him for a bit to strip him of Dream Hallses. Elspeth+KotR seal the deal.
G3: He goes turn 2 S&T and drops a Dream Halls. I drop an Ethersworn Canonist. He makes a frowny face. I start beating face with a flying KotR again but I am exactly 1 turn short. If only the judges had waited literally 5 more seconds before calling time...
3 Big Zoo 1-1
G1: He starts laying down the beats, and I start killing his beats. Then I make my first big mistake of the tournament. He paths my active Knight and I somehow forget to fetch up a Maze. I die not much later.
G2: I find a Maze and more big guys than he has Paths (over a looong period of time that is). He does destroy my Elspeth with his Elspeth but I had kept another one on top with my Top so no biggie.
G3: Time was called when we were shuffling up for game 3. He said he wanted to try it anyway. He goes t1:Wild Nacatl, I go t1: Maze of Ith and we proceed to fill out the match slip.
4 Ubw Control 0-2
G1: He cantrips a bit and then churns out a Baneslayer Angel. I spend 2 StPs and a Vindicate on it, but he has a FoW and 2 Counterspells. I die.
G2: Long, drawnout affair. He eventually gets out an Elspeth and manages to churn out 4 tokens before I kill it with my own Knight-Errant. He then proceeds to remove all my creatures and prod me to death.
5 TES 1-2
G1: I die of goblin token overdose.
G2: I dish out the hate; 2 Thoughtseizes and some hating enchantments. He suggests we try game 3.
G3: My second big mistake of the tournament. I Top and see: Duress, Chalice and something else. Instead of what I should've done (leaving Duress on the top, drawing it with my Top and make him discard) I go for hoping that he cantrips for 1 more turn so I can lay down the Chalice for 1 and hopefully seal the deal. Next turn I was hit with a Tendrils for 30. Afterwards he assures me that even with the Duress he probably woul've gone off 'cause he had the nuts.
6 Merfolk 1-1
G1: Don't remember much of this game. I guess he just did what Merfolk do; play out an Aether Vial and some lords and beat face.
G2: He mulligans to 5. I thoughtseize him, taking his Vial which leaves him with an incredibly slow hand. And when he taps out I drop a Choke. This gives me lots of time to build up a good defense (and maybe some offense if my deck can be bothered). KotR tutors up a Maze so his Jitte is nullified and eventually I win with a flying KotR (again).
G3: He does some stuff, I do some stuff. Neither of us does enough stuff and we go to time. Don't remember anymore.
7 Ooze Survival 2-0
G1: Without Vengevines but with Iona-Retainers and Ooze kill. I start beating down with 3 Goyfs (haven't seen them the entire tournament, and now they come all at once). He powers out an Iona on white but I have a Maze which I use to continuously save the goyf that gets blocked by Iona (he couldn't attack with her because that would leave him too open) for the kill.
G2: Again I get Maze + 3 Goyfs which once again proves to be a lethal combination.
8 Bant Vengevine 2-0
G1: I get an opening hand with Maze and Dueling Ground, seems good. I never hit my third mana and die of a bad case of Vengevine. :(
G2: Things are going well. My hate enchantments are keeping my opponent busy again and he can't beat with his hardcast Vengevine because of my active Monastery. I get a Knight active and an Elspeth out and then it's time for my final big mistake of the day; I get reckless. Instead of taking my time and beating with a flying 4/4 soldier token I wanted to kill a turn earlier and beat with an 8/8 flying KotR instead, keeping an inactive KotR and a soldier token behind for blocking. Next turn he plays a trop and survivals for 2 Vengevines and a Wonder (that was where I thought; "oops") and flies over my blockers' heads for exactly lethal. This shouldn't have happened if I kept the KotR untapped to fetch up either a Maze or a Wasteland to kill his trop. But well.
conclusions:
- This deck is too light on threats for my taste. As you may have read, I got in control game 2 and 3 almost every time, but failed to capitalize on it because I couldn't find a kill. As suggested a couple of Pridemages may solve this as well as improve some of my matchups pre-board.
- I loved the tutoring board. Opponents can often get around 1 hate card, but 2 or 3 different ones can get a lot harder. Didn't like the Crucible though. It's cute and all and has some synergies with Wasteland and Horizon Canopy but I never wanted to board it in (only boarded it in against the control deck, where it netted me a couple of extra cards, but nothing extravagant)
- Horizon Canopy; it's cute and all and grows my Knights, but more often than that it just hurt me a lot and I wished it were a Savannah. One game it gave me 5 damage because I couldn't find other land.
- Maze of Ith was great. A lot of decks are incredibly hindered by that thing. I'm going to test a second one.
- Dueling Grounds main (a switch I made during the car ride to the tournament) was great as well. It locks in combination with Maze or to a lesser extent Elspeth and buys me time like there's no tomorrow.
Your thoughts?
Team Es Kann Fliegen; not having a clue since 2007
I'm not packing any Hymn effects in mine, which is where I get room for Extirpate and Pridemage. But I would disagree with Extirpate not being worth it against control and Zoo. Especially against control which is usually relying on Factory and Jace as win cons. 2 Extirpates and they have no kill conditions. Against cat sligh, I need to be able to get rid of PoP and against big Zoo, I want to get rid of either 'goyf, KotR or 'vore. Otherwise it gets difficult to manage their threats.
But the other caveat is that I run a 3/3 split of StP and Edict, so I'm more likely to put creatures in the bin.
That's also why I run Nobles: it turns Dark Confidant, or even Noble Hierarch into an attacker.
Understandable, though. I think if you want more attackers, add 2 Elspeth. She constantly poops attackers, or makes your better :P
-Matt
For aggro Rock players, I'm pretty sure that a playset of Hierarch, Pridemage, Confidant, Goyfs, and KotR is the right call. That accounts for 20 of your 22-24 creatures slots, leaving about 16-18 slots for non-creatures spells, then about 20-22 lands.
How are aggro Rock people not running Hierarch and Pridemage still? Collectively, they solve a number of problems early and cheaply; mana smoothing and fixing (less disruption from Wasteland, etc), artfiact/enchantment removal before your opponent's CB/Survival come down, and Exalted makes them decent topdecks that swing combat in your favor.
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