[Deck] Death and Taxes

[colo]

There is, of course, a solution to this problem!!1!

(I'm just kidding, actually. Though it'd be nice to pull that off in an actual game, for hilarity's sake alone. :))

[Penguinizer]

Some people were going to use Sword of Vengeance (including me). Too bad it sucked. It'd have done the same thing.

[LegacyDan]

Yeah, we kinda figured that out months ago.

[Penguinizer]

Yeah. I figured it out the first time I tried it. It was horrible. It only worked once, and even then a Sword of Fire and Ice would have done the same thing.

[Osmin]

Hi all!
Last week I built my D'n'T deck as a copy of OP list (to start with). I want to tweak it to my meta. Decks are Survival variants (BGW with and without Vengevines, GW with Vengevines and so on), Bant CounterTop, BG Pox, less common Merfolks, rarely Goblins, Dredge and Combo.
I think to add in SB 3 Aven Mindcensor instead of 1 Tutor, 1 Aura of Silence and 1 Stoneforge Mystic. I don't see use of Aura of Silence because I don't know what to side out for it and tutors. Sideboard plan should be the following:
Survival: +3 Aven Mindcensor, -1 SoFI, -2 Goldmeadow Harrier
Bant CounterTop: +1 Condemn, +1 Grunt, -2 Goldmeadow Harrier
BG Pox: +2 Tutor, +1 Relic, +1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, -2 Oblivion Ring, -2 Goldmeadow Harrier
Merfolks:+3 Cataclysm, +1 Condemn, -3 Grunt, -1 SoLS

Huh, I really think to remove Harrier from MD. (One guy advised to replace it with Disenchant or with War Priest of Thune)
Comments? Thoughts? Thanks in advance :)

[AggroSteve]

i like war priest of thune, but only for sympathy i'd say, since there are not that many enchantments that are extremely problematic AND are often played

deed obviously is the most problematic one, thats for sure, after that, the whole enchantress deck would be a possible target, and counterbalance, but counterbalance is not that much of a problem given we land a vial 1st turn

conclusion = he is too weak, or not usefull enough, except your meta is only enchantress, and maybe landstill and both of them are horrible matchups even if he would be maindeck

well ok he would at least kill a survival, thats not bad..... but still i think he is to weak, but please convince me of the opposite since i love his artwork

actually in your meta i think harrier is still good, probably the best choice we have (at least what i can think about right now)

[Blackmagic]

What about wispmare instead of war priest?

I'm thinking the evoke cost could allow you to destroy survival on your first turn if you're opponent drops one in his second turn (you being on the draw) which could make a difference.

[mrjumbo03]

This has actually been raised in the thread in mtg salvation... and i think it's good maybe 2 or even 3-of in place of the o-ring...other than the evoke cost, it costs 3 so it sits right where you want the counters of aether vial to be...plus it has evasion which is great to get your equipped swings go through...

[Curby]

- 4 Wasteland + 3 Rishadan Port in a deck with that plays 2 colors. That seems to open the door to mana problems.

- 24 lands? Really? Seems too much. I'd cut 2 at least.

Three things help save the deck against your first concern: (1) having more land, as in your second concern, (2) Vial, and (3) Scryb Ranger gives you more mana by bouncing your Savannah for reuse when you don't draw a land.

Maybe the land situation isn't as bad as I thought. The lack of combat strength seems like an issue though. No Grunts, Avengers, or Goyfs seems like a bad idea. Good thing there are plenty of O-Rings to take out of that list. =)



By the way, what's your take on the right number of Stoneforge Mystics? I'm a little curious why Finn has a fourth in the side, when more diverse tricks like a Pithing Needle seem like it would add a lot more value.

[Lorgalis]

I'd never, never, never play 24 lands in this deck. They're too many. I'd rather be drawing something actually relevant than just more land. The deck is not mana hungry.

You absolutely need 7-8 in a combination between Goyf, Grunt and Avenger to be able to beat face. I run 4 Goyf and 3 Avenger and I'm satisfied with it; though I might up the Avengers to 4.

As for Mystic, I run the standard 3 MD, 0 SB. Finn had 1 in the side because he felt it helped him fight Zoo, if I remeber correctly. With the G splash the Zoo matchup is not so bad.

[Penguinizer]

Would KotR be an acceptable replacement for goyf? It sits at cmc 3 so you can have vial at 3 for it, flickerwisp and mangara. The ability to get wastelands might help in some matchups.

None the less. I might run 3 avenger, 3 KotR and 4 flickerwisps or 4 avenger, 3 KotR, 3 flickerwisp. I like having 4 flickerwisps for all the tricks. Avenger is just so much better offensively though.

[Lorgalis]

My opinion is that KotR doesn't belong in the deck. My reason: Finn made the deck. I tried it when it was already fully developped (the monoW version). I tested it, but found it lacking in speed. Because, even though it had a good late game (Mangara+Karakas), that doesn't make the cut against some decks and there were other aggro decks that killed you before you reached that point. I thought of adding some early beef, and the natural options were Qasali Pridemage and Tarmogoyf; Gaddock teeg came as a bonus. The point I'm trying to get accross is that Qasali replaces oblivion Ring, Goyf replaces Grunt; KotR doesn't replace anything. You see? We're still playing D&T, but with green. However, I have tested it and always found it lackluster. It doesn't get very big (I only run 4 fetches and no Flagstones), it is slow, it costs 3, it is vulnerable to graveyard hate...also, the Wasteland fetching ability is not reliable: you'll only use it if you have Vial active, and that doesn't happen every game. Besides, if you have Vial active, the game probably is not going very bad for you. Also, people say "Well, it fetches Karakas!". I don't mind. The whole point of the green splash is to make the deck faster and not so reliant on Managara+Karakas. If you want to hit Mangara+Karakas reliably, play Living Wish.

tldr; Don't play KotR. Play 4 Avenger, 4 Flickerwisp and 2 Grunt. That's what I play online, as I haven't bought the goyfs yet... ;)

[havana]

What about wispmare instead of war priest?

I'm thinking the evoke cost could allow you to destroy survival on your first turn if you're opponent drops one in his second turn (you being on the draw) which could make a difference.

That was better than War Priest of Thune, that's orrible. We can play Wispamre for W and in response use flicker to have 2 flying creatures in play.

I try 2 Wispmare (instead of Harrier) against survival and I don't draw it in the right time, in other match it's awful. I remove it and try 2 Kitchen Finks in mainboard (for 2 goldmeadow harrier) and I prefer 2/3 disenchant/abolish in my sideboard.

[AggroSteve]

i am playing abolish in sideboard over disenchat (counterbalance and more speed because of alternative casting cost)

honestly use your creature slots wisely guys, or its a defensive creature/ disruptive creature or otherwise a beater, nothing else

[Maëlig]

My opinion is that KotR doesn't belong in the deck. My reason: Finn made the deck.

I don't quite get it, what do you mean by that exactly?

I tried it when it was already fully developped (the monoW version). I tested it, but found it lacking in speed. Because, even though it had a good late game (Mangara+Karakas), that doesn't make the cut against some decks and there were other aggro decks that killed you before you reached that point. I thought of adding some early beef, and the natural options were Qasali Pridemage and Tarmogoyf; Gaddock teeg came as a bonus. The point I'm trying to get accross is that Qasali replaces oblivion Ring, Goyf replaces Grunt; KotR doesn't replace anything. You see? We're still playing D&T, but with green.

Don't blind yourself into sticking too close to the classic build. If you're going to make some changes to the deck, such as adding a color, you should accept that this might change it substantially. Just because KotR doesn't "replace anything" strictly speaking doesn't mean it's no good. Sure, it will shake things up a bit, but if you end up with generally better results, then how is that a problem? I do agree that flickerwisp + mangara + KotR is too many 3cc though, that's why I've been playing without flickerwisp for quite some time now, and tbh never really missed it. KotR is both the biggest beater you'll ever get, and a great complement to your LD strategy. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's the best creature in the version of the deck I'm playing.

[Curby]

This goes back to what I wrote earlier. Does the deck do better with more tricks or more beef? On that page I was writing about Goyf vs Ranger, but I suppose it also applies to KotR vs Flickerwisp. Many have posted about how Flickerwisp is the best card in the deck, and clearly his flexibility is amazing for defense, offense, and disruption. KotR also has tricks, but they don't seem quite as breathtaking. He's bigger, but he has to wade through ground forces. If you're going Goyf+KotR, it seems to go from an aggro-CONTROL deck to an AGGRO-control deck. In other words, it might not only be a question of effectiveness but also of play style.

[Blackmagic]

@havana

Just wanted to know if you're going to test anymore with wispmare?

I was suggesting it as a sideboard card in the first place, and probably a 3 of.
Not getting one in a game doesn't really warrant it being thrown to the side and considered as bad, test it some more.

I just think you're discarding the idea too soon.

[Lorgalis]

@Mäelig: From your list, I can see that you're not really playing D&T. As you said, you're playing Maverick. I don't play KotR for the reasons I stated before...but that could change over time. For now, however, I don't see changing anything from my list.

[Penguinizer]

After thinking about it for a bit, I might try something like this:

// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Seijiri Steppe
2 Plains
1 Forest

// Creatures
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Mother of Runes

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard

SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Wing Shards
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeq (Might switch this with the MD Canonists)
SB: 3 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 open slot. Might be a 4th canonist or 4th crypt.

I'm sacrificing some of the Scryb Ranger tricks in favor of building a lightly more aggro-style deck. I really like Canonist MD as well. KotR could be switched out for any good beater.

[Maëlig]

@Mäelig: From your list, I can see that you're not really playing D&T. As you said, you're playing Maverick. I don't play KotR for the reasons I stated before...but that could change over time. For now, however, I don't see changing anything from my list.

Hey, all I'm trying to say is that the two decks aren't so different. Sure, they have different creature packages, but it's still midrange aggro packing creatures with added value (ie disruption). As a consequence, both decks can learn from the sucess of each others, and it is my opinion that a hybrid build is extremely strong at the moment.