My updated list:
Junk Rock: 61
Creatures: 15
3x Noble Hierarch
4x Dark Confidant
2x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Desolation Angel
Sorcery: 13
3x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Identity Crisis
Instant: 4
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Extirpate
Artifact: 8
2x Mox Diamond (still not impressed with this, prolly going to drop for another hierarch)
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
Enchantment: 1
1x Pernicious Deed
Land: 20
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Bojuka Bog
S/B:
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Extirpate
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Pithing Needle
2x Qasili Pridemage
2x OpenSpace
Considering adding the Pridemages back to the deck. They are helpful in many ways and at times find myself wanting them.
Got 2x Moxes and added them, but as I originally stated, they are not a good as they are for other decks. Considering getting Elspeth, seems like a good idea to me, or even Gideon, but I do not feel that he makes the cut.
Looking for another Thoughtseize and 2 other Gerrards Verdicts to replace the Hynms and open a slot or make the deck dead 60 instead of 61.
The Leyline of Sanctity sounds good, or Runed Halo, sound pretty good for the last slots in S/B.
3x SDT is okay, might go back to 2, still undecided.
Once I get a Sword of Fire and Ice, I'll be dropping one Jitte for it.
Any thoughts? (other then Desolation Angel seeming out of place, she's a mid-late game bomb that wins games for me, not to mention no one expects it. She's been working for me and is going to stay)
For 4 mana, isn't Jitte almost better than Elspeth here? Both have pros/cons, but an equipped Jitte can pretty much end a game/control the board in ways that Elspeth simply cannot. You also run Enlightened Tutor, so finding a 1-of Jitte wouldn't be too difficult.Originally Posted by TiB
Why run Maelstrom Pulse over Vindicate? I think that being able to blow a land happens far more often than 2-for-1-ing something.
I think people run Pulse (I do) to have an out versus Iona naming White.
I run 3 Pridemage and 3 Hierarch now. The Hierarchs are a recent addition. Used to be a 23rd land, the 3rd Vindicate and the 4th Extirpate.
When you and your oppoment are both desperately trying to topdeck something to break the game open, Elspeth wins, Jitte sits there. When you're facing down Moat or a fat blocker, Lespeth jumps you over it. Jitte sits there. We don't really need more removal and the lifegain is too slow in the MUs we need it in. I can't ever see wanting Jitte. Maybe SoFI or SoLS for the CA but Jitte just doesn't do enough.
Interesting. Between Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, and Qasali Pridemage, I've never personally found Moat to be a problem. I do agree that Elspeth > Jitte if you and your opponent are in topdeck mode.
To me, because aggro Rock uses the red zone to win games, Jitte allows for far more combat tricks than sorcery speed Planeswalker activations. You say that Jitte's lifegain is too slow in the matchups we need it in, but you can cast and equip it to a big beater as early as turn 3 (t1 Hierarch, t2 2cc beater, t3 cast + equip Jitte); that's pretty fast. That's just as fast as you'd be able to cast Elspeth (again, assuming t1 Hierarch).
Also, I think you're discounting the fact that Jitte costs 2 to cast and 2 to equip. Against some decks, it may be difficult to hit 4 mana, or have 2 white mana available to you all at once. Jitte gives you more flexibility in casting and equipping versus Elspeth.
Something to keep in mind. I definitely see the advantages of Elspeth > Jitte, but I think you're discouting Jitte's absolute dominance of the board/red zone once it gets a couple counters on it.
Could you post your play list? I don't believe I've seen it yet. Jitte has its moments where it just dominates the board, esp against like fish or zoo. Shooting for a selection with having Jitte, SoFI and SoLS as options.
Do you guys board in E Plague for the Merfolk matchup, or is it just used for Goblins, Elves, and (maybe Fae)? I don't have any experience with the Rock vs. Merfolk matchup but I imagine it's no cake walk. Pernicious Deed is probably MVP if you can resolve it.
The Merfolk matchup can be very tricky, you're correct. Your discard and Swords effects are good here, and Pulse is amazing (takes out multiple Vials/Lords). The key here is killing their Lords. Remember, they can't Islandwalk you here. Your creatures are bigger, so make use of that. Block when you can, Swords key Lords, and use discard to it's fullest. Deed is MVP here, but don't rawdog one out. Use bait first, then let it land. If you can land it and sweep the board, you can usually recover better than them.
As well, if you can resolve Dark Confidant here, that's usually a HUGE help. Getting the card advantage on them, either with Discard or Bob is key. I find Plague is not great in this matchup, because they have so many Lords. Mind you, if you're playing Duresses, take them out for Plagues. Needle on Vault is good, as is on Vial.
@ Maelstrom Pulse
Pulse is good in many, many matches. Blowing up two Goyfs is worth its weight in gold, as is killing Iona, killing Goblin tokens from Belcher, Thopter tokens, multiple Ghostly Prisons, and the list goes on. Most of the time you're using Vindicates on non-land permanents anyway, but having the ability to landscrew someone makes Vindicate the go-to option. If you can afford Vindicate, Maelstrom is a fine replacement, and I play both for the versatility each provides.
@ZeinVoncy
There's no reason why you shouldn't be running 4 Swords to Plowshares. Cut 2 Mox D for a Noble Hierarch and 2 Swords, ad find something else to cut. Swords it too good not to play 4 of.
-Matt
I'll add another StP, but I feel that 4 of should not be necessary. Looking to get a Maze of Ith, which should be a great replacement in place of the 4th.
With VV hasting through the format, 4 Swords is more necessary than ever, with some aggro Rock lists running an additional 2 PtE for insurance. Unless you draw into Maze of Ith, tutoring it via KotR can sometimes be too slow, and even if you do tutor it out early, Maze is only a temporary fix for VV whereas Sword/PtE are permanent solutions.
I like the list a lot (I usually play similar builds). The Dueling Grounds main seems pretty good at the moment. I'm going to give your list a try with a few changes; I want to try a Pithing Needle in the main and 6 StP effects. Targeted discard also seems good with all the Survival decks running around, if I find the room I'd like to play the 2nd Duress.
A couple of questions for you, if you don't mind:
- How useful were Stronghold and Monastery? I think the land toolbox should include a Karakas but I don't want to cut a colour producing land for it so one of these would be my choice to cut (I'm thinking Stronghold).
- Do you really need the full playset of E-tutor? I usually run 3 or 2 depending on how many things I have to board in for each matchup and I've never really wanted the 4th Tutor.
- Why the Ghostly Prison side if you already have Dueling Grounds in the main?
By the way; I was there as well on Sunday but I played Ichorid (which I immediately regretted when I saw the available space on each table) but I dropped when I was 2-2, much too crowded and not enough oxygen for my taste.
I think Plague is outdated and simply outclassed by Dueling Grounds. You don't need multiples to lock an opponent out. The only MU where Plague is preferrable is combo elves. Fish and Goblins you'd rather have Grounds.
You can have Jitte equipped turn 3 and swinging, but you're not using any discard or removal and you're already low from Nacatls and Lynxes or Piledriver. Even in the Zoo mirror, Jitte is too slow and they pack more removal than we do with all the burn.
Last edited by SpikeyMikey; 11-17-2010 at 03:46 PM.
In the current metagame, maindeck Extirpate is BOSS. I cut the gerrard's verdict's for them, and they are MVP's. Not only do they make the survival matchup great, its fantastic agaisnt: Aggro loam, lands, dredge, combo, and the satisfaction of extirpating a wasted/vindicated dual land and locking the opponent out of a colour is quite fun.
Another addition is haunting echoes in the sideboard.... game ending card against control, goblins, merfolk, survival etc. or a non-basic lands deck.
Maindeck
Extirpate X 2
Thoughtseize X 4
Hymn to Tourach X 4
Vindicate X 4
Swords to Plowshares X 4
Tarmogoyf X 4
KOTR X 3
Dark Confidant X 4
Sensei's Divining Top X 3
Engineered Explosives X 2
Mox Diamond X 3
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vindicate
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest
//Sideboard
4 Obstinate Baloth
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Dueling Grounds
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Enlightened Tutor
The Deeds in the board are probably going to go. I had Deeds main and EE board, but to be honest, the matchups where I want sweepers, EE is usually better (faster) and the only matchup where I REALLY want Deed is Affinity, and 2 Deeds is not enough to really swing the MU. They'll probably become something like a pair of Null Rods which serve double duty against both Affinity and Storm.
I changed from Loxodon Hierarch to Obstinate Baloth when I made the switch to Noble Hierarchs and Horizon Canopies in place of a Wasteland and a Scrubland. The GG isn't as tough to support now and it's better for the mirror where it can easily be dropped off of a hymn. The regen ability of Hierarch rarely comes into play, so I consider it a straight upgrade. I may cut back to 1 Canopy and make the second one into a Savannah to better support KotR. I just haven't done any testing with this configuration, so it's hard to say what's right.
- Yeah I would've liked a Karakas but didn't have access to any. In the end I didn't need it anyway. Didn't face any Emrakuls and only 1 Iona. Stronghold is just the touch of inevitability I like when the game goes long (which it almost always does). I never actively search it but I'm always happy when I have it. Monastery is an absolute monster, Merfolk absolutely hate it and it blocks Vengevines like mad. The first thing I search for with Knight is either Maze or Monastery. If you wanted to replace something with a Karakas I would say Horizon Canopy.
- The full set of Tutors is what made it possible for me to chain hate together and lock the game down, though I do sometimes have my doubts about the two in the main. It seems to me that just a little too often I don't have anything I want to get with it preboard. If you go for a Needle main that might change though.
- Yeah the Prison could easily be something else. I just wanted a little extra something to combat Ichorid, Vengevine and Goblins.
Funny you played Ichorid and are now coming back to the Rock. I just started playing Ichorid because I'm starting to get a little tired of going into the extra turns every match with the Rock.
Team Es Kann Fliegen; not having a clue since 2007
i am thinking of now testing monastery instead of my sejiri steppe mainboard, ... if it really is a "monster" i definitely want it in the deck, plus it can be counted as a threat as well, so with a land i can get the threat-count a little higher, which is working fine for me i think
I tested Dueling Grounds in the board, and it's a beast. Too bad the art is terrible, I'll have to get a set altered, I guess
Thanks for the Dueling Grounds suggestion, everyone. Far superior to the Engineered Plague :P
-Matt
What do you guys think about Cabal Therapy instead of Hymn To Tourach?
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