I main a 3/3 split of Plow and Edict. It means I don't autolose game 1 to NOPro or SnT. I'm not fast enough to beat people to death before they get a chance to topdeck outs. Of course, I also main Extirpate which means sometimes I don't *want* to RFG something. Or rather, I do, but I want to make sure it never gets played again. Like "eff you, only *I* get to play with KotR this game. And sometimes, since I'm a balls slow control deck, I don't want to get hosed by things like Gigapede, Progenitus and Emrakul. Boarding in 4 PtE's every match seems like a ridiculous soak of sideboard space. Fish can and sometimes still does have Kira in board and then you're screwed. I dunno, there are times when Edict is slightly subpar, but there are also times when it's the dead nuts and your only out. I imagine there are times when I'd want Watchwolf over Pridemage but not enough to ever justify it. Path works poorly with Waste/vindicate.
Originally Posted by Draener
Decks you'd likely want more removal would be Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Vengevine decks, and possibly some kind of mirror. Against mono-colored tribal decks, your mana screw plan is already very iffy. Not to mention they use Vials anyways. The best you can do usually is to keep them off their splash color. (the exception being Merfolk since you can hit their basic islands with Choke and PtE still works well with Choke since the land comes into play tapped) If Merfolk does play Kira then that's why I board in more Deeds. Even if they run Kira, Edict still won't help because they simply aren't going to sacrifice the creature you want them to.
Against Vengevine, Path is obviously better because it removes them from the game and Survival has enough mana dorks to negate LD anyways.
PtE is also the nuts against Affinity.
Against the mirror and other 3 color decks, LD can become important, so I'd say that PtE might not be ideal here. Wanting to be able to kill Dark Confidants keeps me from using Ghastly Demise.
I haven't lost to SnT yet due to hand disruption + Karakas but admittedly there are no NO decks in my meta.
If I'm looking at the right list, you don't run Hymns or 4 Vindicates. Not running Hymns slows your deck down by a lot and not running 4 Vindicates already makes your LD plan weak. I think you should try the "stock list" except instead of Verdicts, you can try the 2 Extirpates since that seems to fit your playstyle and isn't really a bad idea. Maybe you can also cut the MD Deed for an Elspeth.
I think we're all along the same page, but we're in a few different camps on a few different subjects. My thoughts:
Duress vs. Thoughtseize vs. Inquisition
My thoughts are Thoughtseize is strictly the best. It hits everything we want it to hit, including Moats, creatures, Jace, Force, etc. If you can't afford Thoughtseize, or want 6 in the main, play 4 Thoughtseize 2 Inquisition. Duress is suited for the board, as an extra measure against combo and getting the run on Landstill and other non-creature permanent based control decks.
Deed vs. EE
Simple here. EE blows up a certain CMC, Deed does cost and under. Deed is much better against Tribal if it succeeds, but it is a turn slower. An EE for two takes two turns, usually running turn 2 and 3, wheres this is turn 3 and 4. Mind you, you probably wouldn't want to rawdog an EE on two with two colours against Counterbalance, so it ends up being the same. For me, I choose Deed unless you plan on facing Belcher or something, and need an out in the first 2-3 turns.
Diabolic Edict vs. Path vs. Swords
Although they serve slightly different purposes, you're still trying to kill creatures, plain and simple. Targeted removal is usually the best next to mass removal. Having someone sac Cursecatcher and save their Coralhelm Commander is terrible. Swords on Coralhelm would be better, in my opinion. Mind you, Ion on white takes away Path and Swords. I agree with Karakas in the main: if you expect Dredge/Reanimator/Emrakul, pack a Karakas backed with Extirpate in the board. If you're playing Knight, that is. I suggest running AT LEAST 4 Swords in this meta (Vengevines, Lackey, Lord of Atlantis). I also like having an extra 2 Path. Saved my ass plenty of times.
Maindeck Extirpate vs. 2 Path or something
Again, if you expect a ton of Vengevine, you could even pack 4 maindeck Jailers for all I care. It depends on your meta. If you have a ton of Veggies, packing 2 Extirpate isn't a terrible idea. I pack 2 extra Path, as it's more versatile in other matchups, such as Merfolk and Goblins. Yes, stripping a dual off a Hymn + Extirpate is good in the main, but so is just Hymning them and Pathing a dude.
Dueling Grounds vs. Engineered Plague
To be totally honest here, since I've discovered Dueling Grounds, I wouldn't go back to Plague. Plague is VERY good against Elves and Goblins, but Grounds trumps it by taking care of Merfolk and helping out with Vengevine. So far, the only problem is the fact that it has terrible art.
Noble Hierarch vs. Mox Diamond
Seems to be the most sway here. It really comes down to explosivity vs. stability. Mox Diamond allows for turn 1 Hymns, Verdicts, and such. I won't disagree. Turn 1 Noble into turn 2 Hymn is decent, only because you have to fetch a Bayou turn 1 for the Hierarch and play another land turn 2. If Hierarch tapped for Black, there wouldn't be any discussion. I agree Mox pumps your Knight, very true, but Hierarch pumps my Goyfs against his, and you have no way to get lands back. Mox allows for explosive plays, but it can also lead to lagginess afterwards if you don't follow up with big plays. Noble gives you a blocker, exalted, mana, and is good in multiples for the bonuses.
I've tried Mox, and I found myself mana hungry because I was losing lands. With Hierarch, I can survive Wastelands and keep trucking, and swing with Dark Confidant on turn 3 for 3. I like it, but Mox isn't a bad choice. I think it comes down to how your deck is built and personal preference.
Sideboard: to be continued, Dexter's on Bravo
-Matt
Thank you Matt, very well explained.
Talking about sideboards, what would be the best choice for an unknown meta? I am leaning towards this:
3 Dueling Grounds
3 Extirpate
3 Yixilid Jailer
3 Pithing Needle
2 Diabolic Edit (or any removal)
1 Bojuka Bog (or any utility land)
Kudos! I agree that Edict is a fail safe from cards like Progenitus, it's not exactly lackluster, but what else would you do when staring a 10/10 Pro. Everything? It's a good S/B imo. As to Path, I agree totally that it doesn't fit Waste/Vindicate flow.
Agree with pretty much all of this. Testing out the 3x Mox vs 4x Hierarch right now, I'm undecided at the moment.I think we're all along the same page, but we're in a few different camps on a few different subjects. My thoughts:
Duress vs. Thoughtseize vs. Inquisition
My thoughts are Thoughtseize is strictly the best. It hits everything we want it to hit, including Moats, creatures, Jace, Force, etc. If you can't afford Thoughtseize, or want 6 in the main, play 4 Thoughtseize 2 Inquisition. Duress is suited for the board, as an extra measure against combo and getting the run on Landstill and other non-creature permanent based control decks.
Deed vs. EE
Simple here. EE blows up a certain CMC, Deed does cost and under. Deed is much better against Tribal if it succeeds, but it is a turn slower. An EE for two takes two turns, usually running turn 2 and 3, wheres this is turn 3 and 4. Mind you, you probably wouldn't want to rawdog an EE on two with two colours against Counterbalance, so it ends up being the same. For me, I choose Deed unless you plan on facing Belcher or something, and need an out in the first 2-3 turns.
Diabolic Edict vs. Path vs. Swords
Although they serve slightly different purposes, you're still trying to kill creatures, plain and simple. Targeted removal is usually the best next to mass removal. Having someone sac Cursecatcher and save their Coralhelm Commander is terrible. Swords on Coralhelm would be better, in my opinion. Mind you, Ion on white takes away Path and Swords. I agree with Karakas in the main: if you expect Dredge/Reanimator/Emrakul, pack a Karakas backed with Extirpate in the board. If you're playing Knight, that is. I suggest running AT LEAST 4 Swords in this meta (Vengevines, Lackey, Lord of Atlantis). I also like having an extra 2 Path. Saved my ass plenty of times.
Maindeck Extirpate vs. 2 Path or something
Again, if you expect a ton of Vengevine, you could even pack 4 maindeck Jailers for all I care. It depends on your meta. If you have a ton of Veggies, packing 2 Extirpate isn't a terrible idea. I pack 2 extra Path, as it's more versatile in other matchups, such as Merfolk and Goblins. Yes, stripping a dual off a Hymn + Extirpate is good in the main, but so is just Hymning them and Pathing a dude.
Dueling Grounds vs. Engineered Plague
To be totally honest here, since I've discovered Dueling Grounds, I wouldn't go back to Plague. Plague is VERY good against Elves and Goblins, but Grounds trumps it by taking care of Merfolk and helping out with Vengevine. So far, the only problem is the fact that it has terrible art.
Noble Hierarch vs. Mox Diamond
Seems to be the most sway here. It really comes down to explosivity vs. stability. Mox Diamond allows for turn 1 Hymns, Verdicts, and such. I won't disagree. Turn 1 Noble into turn 2 Hymn is decent, only because you have to fetch a Bayou turn 1 for the Hierarch and play another land turn 2. If Hierarch tapped for Black, there wouldn't be any discussion. I agree Mox pumps your Knight, very true, but Hierarch pumps my Goyfs against his, and you have no way to get lands back. Mox allows for explosive plays, but it can also lead to lagginess afterwards if you don't follow up with big plays. Noble gives you a blocker, exalted, mana, and is good in multiples for the bonuses.
I've tried Mox, and I found myself mana hungry because I was losing lands. With Hierarch, I can survive Wastelands and keep trucking, and swing with Dark Confidant on turn 3 for 3. I like it, but Mox isn't a bad choice. I think it comes down to how your deck is built and personal preference.
Sideboard: to be continued, Dexter's on Bravo
-Matt
How many Dueling Grounds would you run S/B?
If I had to go to a Star City Games Tournament tomorrow, I'd bring the following side:
Sideboard:
4x Extirpate With Loam, Vengevine, and other graveyard based decks running around, I don't leave home without these. Whether you're running some in the main or not, you should have at least 4, if not 7 of these between the main and side. I may be tricky to hide 7 Extirpates between the main and side, but it's that good.
3-4x Dueling Grounds: I'm undecided on the correct number of these as of late, but I feel 3-4 feels right. It lets you compete with fast aggro, improves Vengevine matchup again, can help you take on Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Dredge, Elves Thopters, etc. I've found Plague to be not as good in comparison now that's I've played with it. But, I wouldn't say anything against running a mix of Dueling Grounds and Plagues, or Plagues if you don't have Grounds. It's not good against decks with singular large beaters, like Reanimator and Emrakul/Sneak and Tell shenanigans.
1x Bojuka Bog: As hokey as some of you may think this is, it is a very useful tool as a one-of in either the side or the main, so long as you're running Knight of the Reliquary. An instant speed graveyard removal destroys the opposing Vengevines, Terravores, and puts their KoTR's into the small zone. There's nothing like blocking a 10/10 KoTR with a 6/6, then searching for Bog before damage. As well, Maze of Ith cannot also be underestimated: It's very good with Dueling Grounds.
4x Leyline of Sanctity: I'm not really sure why no one is playing this card. As the popularity of Vengevine rises, the popularity of the "counter" to Angry Salad, ANT or TEPS, also increases. Leyline gives you a turn 0 out to combo, and buys you what you need: Time. Time is a combo deck's worst enemy. The main goal is to besiege you with a flurry of spells in turns 1 and 2, then kill you. Leyline makes them dig for an answer before they go off, allowing you to use your discard to strip away key search cards, or just to lay out threats. Leyline also protects you from Siege Gang Commander under a Dueling Grounds, Wheel of Sun and Moon, the opponent's discard, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Burn Decks, Zoo, just to name a few. Even running it out on turn 3-4 is still good, honestly.
2x Pernicious Deed: You should be running 2 Deeds or EE's between the main and board. I'm thinking about running a 1:1 split, just because it's useful in many matchups. Not a necessity, but helpful.
3x Duress: If you don't like Deeds, Bogs, or what have you, I think this is the next card you should consider. Again, with Combo on the rise, having 7 pieces of turn 1 discard backed with Leyline of Sanctity gives you a much better edge. As well, On the play against Survival gives you more ways to take Survival away before they can play it. It's good against Control by taking Jace, Moat, Humility; It's good against other Rock decks; It's good against everything non-tribal. This is totally fine though, we have tribal matches covered with some combination of a bajillion Swords/removal and the Vindicate/Pulse/Deed/Dueling Grounds/bigger creature approach our decks tend to take.
Honourable mentions for obvious reasons goes to Pithing Needle. If you feel the need to, play it.
My board so far looks like:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Duress
1 Deed
4 Extirpate
3 Dueling Grounds
Comments, questions, etc. post away. I'll be home tomorrow to answer
-Matt
I've dropped from 4 Vindicate to 3 to 2 because I found that a lot of decks ran too many basics to seriously crimp their mana base and it's too slow in a lot of matchups. It might be ok against Big Zoo where it can be used to kill a KotR or a Thoctar. It's not nearly as exciting against Cat Sligh where the first 2 turns are going to consist of them dropping some form of 3+ power beaters. Lynx into T2 double Nacatl is way too fast to be Vindicating things, even if you're on the play. Which is also the reason I run EE over Deed. Deed is better. Once it's on the board. But for answering nasty things that come down early like Nacatls and Vials, EE is just a bit faster, and that can mean the difference between being at 9 when I stabalize and being dead. Is Vindicate still useful? Yes, I just put Wastes and Vindicates to good use against AnT. Then later, I had 3 Wastelands in play against Quinn and they were dead. Obviously, it's still worth running some LD, but it's become less and less what my deck is focused on.
I'm playing more to the long game. Maybe it's a matter of play-style. I won G1 against Quinn because twice I extirpated him during his upkeep after an EoT E. Tutor, which kept him from getting Chant on a stick. Had that happened, I would've lost since I have no answer to it. Now maybe if I'd have been more proactive, running a full set of Hymns, Wastes and Vindicates, I could've avoided it through resource denial. Maybe. But whereas Hymn might hit that Chant and leave him with a dead stick in hand, Extirpate shuffled the stick away and removed all his Elspeths. Looking to the long game, I'd rather strip a win con (one of only 2 real win cons, since Painter/Stone is less than scary when you pack Plows and Edict, so the lone chicken factory was the only real threat at that point).
Also, on a different note, I would say that DG is far better against Gobbos than Plague. If you hit 2 Plagues, it's good, but if you only hit 1, they can still do nuts things with Warchiefs and Ringleaders and Piledrivers. DG means the biggest threat you face is a 2/2 swinging into you. Significantly less scary than say 4 1/1's and a 8/1.
I'm probably going to take this to a local tournament in a couple of days:
MD
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Chrome Mox
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
SB
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Extirpate
1 Duress
1 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Path to Exile
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Engineered Plague
Chrome Mox is there so I can reduce the land count, as opposed to Mox Diamond, which eats up a land. I have 20 mana-producing lands/fetchlands + 1 Maze of Ith. I can usually keep a hand with 2 lands or 1 land and 1 Mox, so it's like I have 23 lands. The deck has a few ways of generating card advantage to offset pitching a card to the Mox.
Comments and criticism would be very welcome.
i do not like chrome mox here at all, since besides confidant we have no drawengine, i'd rather loose a land, that pumps my knight than a businessspell, i think you understand my point, if you would have another "sick" drawengine or cardadvantagegenerator in your list i would approve of it
just as example, since you have enought threats i would recommend 2x jitte, ....just an idea, in that case i would up the count of mealstrom to 3 and cut the vindicates, since your LD is quite weak compared to the usual 4 wastelands and 4 vindicates
I'm not a fan of the Wastelands, I prefer to run more basics instead. I think it makes you better against Tribal, since they have few things to Wasteland anyway.
Thoughts about Sideboard analysis?
-Matt
how do you deal with show and tell decks? I played rock today at a local tournament and show and tell is the only thing that beat me.
Karakas helps.
Solid analysis I think. Everyone is different, but I feel that you covered most of the most reasonable choices. As of the moment, my S/B looks like this:
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Dueling Grounds
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Pithing Needle
1x Extirpate
2x Diabolic Edict
@ Evincarcrovax
What decks did you win against? I'm saying if you beat all other major archetypes/decks (Tribal, Combo, Survival, Landstill) and only lost to Show and Tell, need we shore up the match?
Most of the stuff they play is Legendary, or is targetable by Swords. Iona and Emrakul get raped by Knight of the Reliquary fetching Karakas, and most other beasts get taken out by targeted removal. I suggest siding in discard against these types of decks.
-Matt
Karakas is essentially useless, despite the weird misconception that it actually does anything. Off Sneak Attack (assuming Emrakul), a Karakas activation is negated with an extra R. Off SnT, they're only going to drop Progenitus anyway. Look for a hand with lots of early hand disruption and possibly a threat. SnT decks are weak to tempo matchups, so play that way; a Tarmogoyf, KotR or pair of Bobs backed by a constant stream of black discard is your best chance.
SnT decks need at least 2 of 3 types of cards to keep a hand; a threat, a cheat card and protection (which can alternately just be fast mana against nonblue decks or redundant copies against blue decks). If they've got redundant cards in-hand (i.e. 2 threats), take their cheat card or tutor instead. If can find an Extirpate, take Emrakul or a cheat card (prioritizing Sneak Attack > SnT > Emrakul, assuming none in play) and extirpate it. Obviously it's easier said than done; the matchup is obviously extremely unfavorable for you, but it's not unrealistic to pull away with a win if you can land an early Bob and follow up with discard+ an Extirpate or two.
Assuming Brad Nelson's top 8 list, your board strategy is -1 Pernicious Deed, -4 Swords to Plowshares, -4 Vindicate, +3 Duress, +3 Extirpate, +3 Diabolic Edict. You can adjust it to your particular list, but the idea is more or less the same whatever list you play.
Great success!
There was 4 rounds . First round I played against a really bad U/W control deck, the person told me it was his first time playing legacy so this was a pretty easy match. won 2-0
The second one was the show and tell deck, I lost 1-2. I did win one of the matches only because I drew a lot of discard.
Third round was fish, and I won 2-1. Choke and Plague and discard helped here.
The fourth round I played goblins and the lost the first match. I sided in dueling grounds, and engineered plague and won the next two.
I placed third and won 5 boosters of scars. First place was from the vault relics.
This was my list.
4 Swamp
2 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath
1 Murmuring Bosk
3 Tainted Field
3 Tainted Wood
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Doran
3 Eternal Witness
4 Loxodon Hierarch
SB:
3 Duress
2 Duelling Grounds
3 Engineered Plague
3 Choke
4 Leyline of the Void
I'll take the leylines out of the sideboard and add in my Diabolic edicts instead. Out of like 20 people nobody played any graveyard based decks. I'll try and find some karakas as well.
Last edited by Evincarcrovax; 11-21-2010 at 03:33 PM.
I'm waffling on Deed vs. EE again. When I was running Deed, I wanted EE instead most of the time. Now that I've made the switch, I find myself never liking EE when I see it. It's no good against Humility or Jace. I think I'm going back to Deed.
Well, just to play devils advocate, Deed doesn't help against Jace either. I've never been a big fan of EE, even when I played 4cc in Vintage. It's too narrow to be that great. Deed gives more play room once it's actually on the field, as opposed to EE which is limited once on the field.
i for my part play deed and prefer it over EE, exactly for the above stated reason, deed gives more options, ... just for example, it hinders an aggroplayer from overextending, and that way you keep control of the game, otherwise if deed comes a bit later it just wipes the board clear, and that is exactly why i like deed better than EE
honestly in what matchups is EE better than Deed if you are playing a Dark Horizons list? i cannot think of one other than belcher and to a lesser extend maybe dredge or TES if they are going for ETW
Not playing Dark Horizons though, playing a very controlling version of Rock. And the things that come immediately to mind are fast Zoo, Cat Sligh and Fish.
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