I have heard some minor buzz around including Assault Strobe and splashing red to Berserk Stompy.
My question is this: how good could Kiln Fiend be with that kind of setup?
tnx necro.
@ mr. safety
klin fiend is good if your deck runs more instant or sorcery.
i would say 16 creatures, that would be silhana, kavu, bogle and klin
then 15-17 lands depending on your playing style.
then the rest instant or sorcery pump spells.
TJB
http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^
TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)
UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)
That's what I thought.
Current list I'm playtesting (I do not own a/b/rev duel lands...)
Slippery Bogle x4
Skarrgan Pit Skulk x4
Silhana Ledgewalker x4
Kavu Predator x4
Kiln Fiend x4
Elvish Spirit Guide x4
Assault Strobe x4
Berserk x4
Might of Old Krosa x4
Invigorate x4
Rancor x3
Sylvan Library x1
Wooded Foothills x1
Stomping Ground x3
Karplusan Forest x2
Forest x10
I worry I don't have enough pump spells to feed a big berserk...I'm considering dropping one of the dudes for Giant Growth...not sure how to figure this one out...
Help?
You have a high count of 2cc treats, and need 2 open forest for most of you berserk situations as well, so I recomend you to fix your manabase. I'd rather run more forests than running ESG, and if you decide to keep ESG, you might need to decrease your power somewhere else. You should try to reach 18 lands there, probably.Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I wouldn't use 4x Assault Strobe, and would always use 4x Rancor (Although I realize you don't want enchants, rancor is needed when you only got Strobe). Also, 6 Red lands won't be enough for the splash, considering you may end up with only Kiln Fiend as creature w/o a red land. You can try these new GR lands, or more karplusan forests if you can't add fetchs or duals.
And Giant Growth won't fix your Berserk, what can do that is Seal of Strength. With GG, you'll still need more lands than that, IMO.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Thanks for the insight...it will definately help me with playtesting. My thinking for Elvish Spirit Guide was entirely so I could get a 2 mana dude on the table turn 1.
I'll work up to 18 lands, get the 4th Rancor BACK in, and drop my Assault Strobe count to 2. Six Berserk-effects should be enough.
New list for testing:
Slippery Bogle x4
Skarrgan Pit Skulk x4
Silhana Ledgewalker x4
Kavu Predator x4
Kiln Fiend x3
Elvish Spirit Guide x4
Assault Strobe x2
Berserk x4
Might of Old Krosa x4
Invigorate x4
Rancor x4
Sylvan Library x1
Wooded Foothills x1
Stomping Ground x4
Karplusan Forest x4
Forest x9
Now for a tough question: Lightning Bolt...does it belong in a red-splashed stompy deck?
with what we have here, i could say no becauseLightning Bolt...does it belong in a red-splashed stompy deck?
our aim here is to finish our opponent via big
damage off an attacking creature.
I do not own a/b/rev duel lands....why only one foothills?Wooded Foothills x1
Stomping Ground x4
Karplusan Forest x4
Forest x9
i suggest this for your mana base:
4 wooded F.
4 stomping G.
9 forest
i know she's good butsylan library
i don't think drawing it in a crucial point of the game
would be useful. BUT im keeping it in the list
because it will help you fix your hand for that
juggernaut punch you'll deliver later on.
here's what's in my mind using RG klin stompy
4 klin
4 kavu
4 bogle
4 silhana
4 lotus petal/ ESG
4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa
2 assault strobe
4 vines of the vastwoods
3 seal of strenght/ g.growth
2 sylvan library
4 wooded F.
4 stomping G.
9 forest
about the sideboard let's talk about that later.
:)
TJB
http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^
TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)
UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)
paeng,
Don't you think 16 creatures is a little too low? I mean, I reduced my creature count to 20 to increase the pumps, and sometimes I regreat not having more creatures,,, how is 16 working for you?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I like the set-up...but the likelihood of getting a turn 1 threat is a lot lower without Skarrgan Pit-Skulk, you only have Bogle. I feel it's neccessary, as Gui_Brasil says, to have at least 20 creatures. Chances are good you're going to have one killed, and you need a creature to win, period. BUT, and this is the reality, if I'm committed to using Kiln Fiend, spells must be at their maximum count to make him work. If I find too many situations where I don't have a creature to play in my opening 7 cards, and I have to mulligan too aggressively to get one, then I'll go back to the mono-green list with Skarrgan Pit-Skulk, and possibly Nettle Sentinel.
I DO NOT consider Elvish Spirit Guide a creature...it's a free mana source like Lotus Petal, but essentially uncounterable (although tempo thresh packs 4x Stifle maindeck usually...yuck)
As far as the Wooded Foothills go, availability is a problem. I own one and I haven't found a reasonable source for the other 3. I have a playset of Arid Mesa, but I'm not feeling that would be the wisest choice to put an off-color fetch in there. It would ONLY fetch Stomping Ground, not a basic forest...late game against other aggressive decks would mean I couldn't dodge the 2 life-loss from Stomping Ground. Karplusan Forest would only ding me for one (same as Foothills) but I wouldn't need to fetch Stomping Ground and take 2.
I don't understand the idea that Seal of Strength would be better than Giant Growth...If I were using Goyfs, that's a different matter as it pumps Goyf to have an enchantment in the graveyard. Without Goyf, Giant Growth seems superior at instant speed.
One thing I really like is your inclusion of Vines of Vastwood...because it will protect Kiln Fiend from removal for only G. If I have GG available, it's another +4/+4. Pretty solid tech, and a reason to get 18 lands in there alongside the ESG's.
New list:
Slippery Bogle x4
Kiln Fiend x4
Silhana Ledgewalker x4
Kavu Predator x4
Bersek x4
Assault Strobe x2
Invigorate x4
Vines of Vastwood x4
Might of Old Krosa x4
Rancor x4
Elvish Spirit Guide x4
Karplusan Forest x4
Stomping Ground x4
Wooded Foothills x1
Forest x 9
Now for the sideboard...which can be tricky considering this is essentially a combo deck. Explanations for cards will follow.
I have been using this:
3x Winter Orb
4x Autumn's Veil
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
Winter Orb - some aggro decks are using Choke...but in such a low-land deck, this seems just as good. Choke doesn't let islands untap, but that doesn't stop Force of Will/Daze ANYWAYS. The cheaper cost of Orb seems smart considering the control decks need to get their mana rolling to eventually get enough board advantage to win.
Autumn's Veil - along with Vines of Vastwood, this is another green 'counterspell'. It protects from removal like Smother and can be a good response to Force of Will. If I have ESG in my hand, it's the same as playing Force of Will, but in green.
Vexing Shusher - an uncounterable creature that can protect against the control decks. Control decks can really mess us up when they counter our creatures. This ensures they hit the table. I'm thinking 3 may be too many though, 2 might be enough.
Tormod's Crypt - free graveyard hate, essential for the dredge matchup, hoses threshold, and can hose reanimator if it ever gets strong play again.
Krosan Grip - shouldn't have to explain this one. Trinisphere is a scoop if they land it before I can get their life low enough. I'm debating Ancient Grudge with the red splash...it seems really good considering flashback is so cheap. In a CounterTop heavy metagame, or one where Ravager/Affinity is trying to make a comeback, I would play Ancient Grudge x4 in the sideboard. Thoughts?
I believe that since we only draw 1 card per turn in this deck, so we will end up the game having seen something like 9-13 cards max, sideboarding so many 3 or 2 of something will many times be useless because we will most likely not get it.
I would recommend 4x Vexing, he is awesome, and He is a creature!!!
I also suggest not playing Winter Orb, but if you like it, go for it. I only see Winter in Elves decks with mana generating dudes.
Autumn's veil only works once, while Vexing can be used many times, but Veil is a good card anyway, although I believe that not 4x
Tormod's is good, but I suggest either Not running grave hate, or running 6 cards (4x tormod's, 2 ravenous trap or 2 faerie macabre, others..). It's either we draw it and win, or we lose against dredge. It's also good against aggro-loam, 43lands, reanimate and many other decks.
Krosan grip, at CMC 3 destroying only 1 target, looks weak to me, but that's up to everyone. I prefer Seeds of Innoncence or Reverent Silence, plus Gleeful sabotage, which copied is uncounterable :O
My sideboard in monogreen looks like:
4x Vexing Shusher + 2x Rushwood Legate
4x Tormod's (other) + 1x Trap
3x Seeds of Innocence + 1x Gleeful sabotage (I usually run 1 or 2 art/ench removal maindeck - Viridian Zealot or Sabotage)
By the way, the reason to use Seal of strength, is because you spend mana on it one turn, don't use it, and the next turn you have a +3/+3 for 0 mana, so running 4x Seal instead of Giant growth allows you to pretty much run 1 land less.
Ahhh...there's the trick to Seal of Strength. I don't think it belongs in Fiend Stompy, but in mono-green, yep it's better than Giant Growth. Thanks for the knowledge.
I think you're right about the lack of draw, you're counting on a densely packed dedicated list and not so much on library manipulation. Therefore the best cards, even in the sideboard, need to be at 4, or even having up to 6 copies of some effects.
Revised sideboard:
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ravenous Trap
2x Ancient Grudge
4x Viridian Zealot
I see many of you are running Shusher, which is great. Don't get me wrong, but it is quite mana intensive to make your spells uncounterable. Most of our spells are instants. Correct? Why not turn 1 Xanthid Swarm and pump on the attack phase?
I see Xantid Swarm as a functional substitute for Autumn's Veil...but it can be killed pretty easy. Shusher HIMSELF is uncounterable, and then you basically just slow down a slight bit to have a spare G to use on your pump spells. You are still going to outpace control decks this way, and Shusher gives you game. Xantid Swarm prevents spells from being cast when it attacks...but chances are good your opponent is going to counter it with Daze/FoW before you can use it. Autumn's Veil is superior to Xantid Swarm because you can cast it IN RESPONSE to Daze/FoW.
Xantid Swarm is more of a combo weapon, TBH. I see Xantid Swarm in a few different sideboards, mostly combo decks that are trying to combo out without fear of getting anything countered.
Well, isn't this exactly what we're doing?
I won many games with just an attacking xantid swarm, and he couldn't do anything about the followup of uncounterable pump + berserk.
If he does remove it in response, you play your second (now uncounterable) critter and pass the turn.
If he was a wiseguy, he removed it before the attack phase.
This card is great against any deck with counters and sometimes players who don't remove it but could.
It is a flyer, but has zero power which can sometimes be problematic; however I haven't seen this that much in testing.
Shusher looks nice, but it needs a lot of mana to get spells through.
What kind of deck do you think you're playing? You do the exact same thing as other combo decks. You play a chain of spells, hopefully for the win. Xanthid swarm protects all of those spells from counters. The ONLY case where shusher is better than swarm is probably against counterbalance.
This is not true. Berserk Stompy is ALSO a combo deck, but not exclusively. Mr. Safety's argument is right, against blue control, it's better to have creatures aggro than it is to have a combo that will most likely fail to FoW. Vexing Shusher is better than Xantid in many ways, and to be honest, I'd never use Xantid as protection while using Might of Old Krosa. Xantid will get countered and killed before it can help you to combo against control. Shusher is better against Counterbalance and against Chalice of the Void, and is better against UGx tempo decks as well as Merfolks.
If you deny that Berserk Stompy is also able to play the aggro role, the only big reason remaining to play it over ANT would be $$$.
@Mr. Safety
I'd play Gleeful Sabotage if you are not going to use Krosan Grip. Gleeful is superior to Viridian, IMO (it's superior to krosan on low mana versions too).
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Thanks for the backup, Gui_Brasil. I agree wholeheartedly. I see the 2 cards (Xantid Swarm & Vexing Shusher) performing 2 different functions. Xantid Swarm is NOT for the control matchup...as soon as the control player sees it, they'll clue in to what you're doing. That means Daze/FoW or Brainstorm to FIND Daze/Fow. They will realize that Xantid Swarm is going to be problematic. Shusher on the other hand is just flat out uncounterable (either with Daze/Fow OR CounterTop...just can't be countered period.) That means we ARE GOING TO HAVE A CREATURE ON THE TABLE which is key to winning. We don't need to be really fast in the control matchup, just consistent. I've played so many games against control decks where I was just trying to out-race them...and it couldn't be done unless I had free mana open and a Shusher in play. So that means CALM DOWN, settle into the game, make the safe plays, and wait for the mana to show up so you can grind through for the win.
Xantid Swarm, without haste, is a liability in my honest opinion. I just don't like wasting a G to play a dude that will be countered or killed before I can use it. There is so much cheap removal in the game and 8 free counterspells that make him just a waste. If I play a Slippery Bogle/Silhana Ledgewalker un-countered, it will most likely win me the game because of the troll-shroud factor. Xantid Swarm is a sitting duck.
I know what you're going to ask me: then why use Kiln Fiend? Because Kiln Fiend increases the chance for a turn 3 win. Xantid Swarm can't do that. Fiend grows all by himself, essentially giving you a free Reckless Charge with every pump spell. Might of Old Krosa = +7/+4. Stack a Berserk on top of that during combat, and you have a 21/4 trampler. That's a turn 3 win, most likely. If your opponent doesn't have a blocker, this is also a situation where it would be reasonable to cast Assault Strobe pre-combat. It will most likely 'fish' out their counterspell, if they have one. But you still played a sorcery...so Fiend STILL gets +3/+0.
Now lets take the same scenario with Xantid Swarm played on turn 1 un-countered. You pass the turn, giving them a chance to draw into removal. Let's say the don't draw it and pass the turn back to you, playing something like Sensei's Divining Top. You untap, play Might of Old Krosa on Xantid Swarm and attack for 4 with protection (16 life). If you have your second land/Elvish Spirit Guide, you drop another threat, maybe a Slippery Bogle or Skarrgan Pit Skulk as a 2/2. You pass the turn, and they have another opporutunity to draw into removal, with SDT helping them search, or possibly a Brainstorm/Ponder showing up to help them fish for one. Lets say they STILL don't get removal (lucky you...) You're still sitting on 2 threats on the board as you go into turn 3, GREAT!!! You drop your second land (now you're REALLY luck, lol) play Might of Old Krosa on Skarrgan Pit Skulk, and Berserk on him during combat so he gets in for 12 damage, protected by Xantid Swarm (you're lucky...Might and Berserk go uncountered...) They are now at 4 life. It's turn 3, you still haven't won the game, and you now have given your opponent ANOTHER TURN to find removal or draw into counterspells. If you get lucky and draw into another pump spell (probable) you can concievably win on turn 4. If you don't draw one, you're looking at another turn to set up the win, because you can only attack for 2 with Skulk (this providing they haven't gotten a blocker onto the table yet...) Need I go on? Xantid Swarm just doesn't cut it.
Lets take the same scenario again, only this time instead of Kiln Fiend or Xantid swarm, we have Vexing Shusher to play. Turn one, you play a Forest and pass the turn. Turn 2, you play your second Forest/ESG to get Shusher onto the battlefield. They might have FoW/Daze, they might not. Doesn't matter, it's hitting the table. They still get a chance to draw into removal (which, if you haven't figured out yet, is the biggest weak point of Berserk Stompy's non-shroud creatures like Kiln Fiend, Skarrgan Pit Skulk, Kavu Predator, and in some cases Tarmogoyf) They don't draw removal, so they set up with Sensei's Divining Top. Your turn, you don't draw a second land yet (probable) and you attack for 2 and pass the turn. This game will go on quite a bit longer, but if you can keep Shusher on the table and a spare mana open to protect your spells, you're GOING to grind through for the win. If they kill Shusher, that means you've emptied one removal from their deck, so you have better chances of landing a Slippery Bogle or Silhana Ledgwalker, which if go uncountered, will eventually win you the game. You're going to go mid-late game, probably 6+ turns. But you have some inevitability on your side that is powerful against control.
Sure, Vexing Shusher can get removed, but his potential is UNREAL compared to Xantid Swarm. Kiln Fiend, same deal. He's worth playing in stompy simply for the turn 3 win.
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm pushing for Shusher pretty hard because I strongly believe in his power level over Xantid Swarm. You have to switch gears in your head when playing against control...control has a GREAT matchup against combo decks, simply because of 8 free counterspells, and in a lot of cases CounterTop to lock you down. You need to play the aggro to win against them.
i played friday night and sunday afternoon local legacy tournaments
here using this deck and in both tournaments i landed 3rd. my losses
for both tournaments came from the same type: V.V. SURVIVAL.
i remember,i was so close of winning the game, wherein i was
able to pinned his life to down to one. but unfortunately, his 4 vengies
saved his as$. *sigh*
im still on the drawing board of "how to get around with v.v sur" thingy.
do you guys have any new inputs for this? thanks
*the meta by the way for both tournaments were as follows:
3 survival
3 merfolk
4 zoo
1 dredge
1 aggro elves
1 reanimator
1 landstill
2 goblin
1 belcher
x others i forgot :)
thanks..
TJB
http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^
TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)
UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)
I think, there isn't much against VV Survival, except maybe Needle... =/ too bad, but we are not the only deck, that suffers under VV-Sur =P
Actually... I am in a discussion with Gui and a few other Guys... If we have the standard creatures 4off Skargan, Bogle, Kavu, Ledgewalker..., and play our standard mono-G Pump 4 off Zerk, Rancor, MooK, Invigorate + xx Seal, VoV, whatever
What do you think is more important in the creaturebase, 1 Mana, 2 Power Creeps like [Nettle, Skyshroud, Jungle Lion], or evasive Critters [Scrybs, Treetop Scout, etc]? IMO its the 1 Mana, 2 Power Creatures, what are u guys thinking?
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
as much as possible i'll try to harmonize the two options here necro.
here's the list that i ran for both tournaments:
5 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 windswepth heath
2 scryb ranger
3 slippery bogle
3 skarggan
3 jungle lion
3 nettle sentinel
2 scryb sprites
4 silhana ledgewalker
4 kavu predator
3 skyshroud cutter
4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 might of old krosa
4 seal of primordium
4 rancor
SB
3 reverent silence
3 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
4 rushwood legate
3 Vov
:)
TJB
http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^
TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)
UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)
I've done splits like that with other creatures before, it really seems to be an option to me. Even some "unjustified" splits, like 3 Scryb / 3 Skarrg, in which Skarrg is probably better, can be justified by Moat and chump blocking some flyer. Seems like every creature of ours got an advantage and disadvantage over the others on the pile.
NecroYawgmoth is right, we've been discussing this, and I'm currently splitting 3/3 Nettle/Scryb to test their effectiveness. Against counterspells control, I'd rather have power 2 1cc's, but against aggro and mostly Tarmogoyf, I like flying better. What's the general oppinion and current choices?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
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