Survival of the Fittest

[dontbiteitholmes]

These Survival discussions have really reached critical mass. It's really just coming to the point where there are about 6 threads about the exact same thing and everyone is just spitting out bad opinions like unban Flash, Mana Drain, or Library or people comparing Survival to Necropotence. I just wanted to point out to anyone that hadn't noticed yet that most of the people with sensible opinions left these threads long ago and now they have just turned into the standard ban this/unban that thread along with all the typical nonsense that is said in such threads.

[Koby]

Apparently the reply was too short. I think it was 1000words too long.

[menace13]

These Survival discussions have really reached critical mass. It's really just coming to the point where there are about 6 threads about the exact same thing and everyone is just spitting out bad opinions like unban Flash, Mana Drain, or Library or people comparing Survival to Necropotence. I just wanted to point out to anyone that hadn't noticed yet that most of the people with sensible opinions left these threads long ago and now they have just turned into the standard ban this/unban that thread along with all the typical nonsense that is said in such threads.

I agree all these Threads on Surv are the same posts all over the place.

But Why is unbanning LoA a bad opinion. The card isn't even played anymore in Vintage. Like seriously, maybe all of 10 decks played it all of this year. Its time has passed like so many of the cards on their archaic list. Turn one on play, drop LoA leaves you with 6 cards and no spells. BoB is far better.

[GGoober]

I agree all these Threads on Surv are the same posts all over the place.

But Why is unbanning LoA a bad opinion. The card isn't even played anymore in Vintage. Like seriously, maybe all of 10 decks played it all of this year. Its time has passed like so many of the cards on their archaic list. Turn one on play, drop LoA leaves you with 6 cards and no spells. BoB is far better.

...

Sorry but LoA would be a tad too strong in the format. It's not played in Vintage because of the way Vintage is i.e. there are better cards to run. However, if LoA is in Legacy, there would not be better cards to run over it e.g. Mox, Vault, Crypt, Time Vault, Powers. i.e. "This card is not played in Vintage" does not always mean that it is safe for Legacy.

Also, being a restricted card in Vintage makes it questionable to run it at all. If LoA is unrestricted (As in the case for Legacy cards unbanned/unrestricted), I'm pretty sure Vintage decks will work an unrestricted list of LoA in some form of control decks. I'm not the Vintage expert here, but I believe there would not be a strong reason not to run 4 LoA if a deck could support it.

[menace13]

...

Sorry but LoA would be a tad too strong in the format. It's not played in Vintage because of the way Vintage is i.e. there are better cards to run. However, if LoA is in Legacy, there would not be better cards to run over it e.g. Mox, Vault, Crypt, Time Vault, Powers. i.e. "This card is not played in Vintage" does not always mean that it is safe for Legacy.

Also, being a restricted card in Vintage makes it questionable to run it at all. If LoA is unrestricted (As in the case for Legacy cards unbanned/unrestricted), I'm pretty sure Vintage decks will work an unrestricted list of LoA in some form of control decks. I'm not the Vintage expert here, but I believe there would not be a strong reason not to run 4 LoA if a deck could support it.

I disagree. Outside of the control mirror, what decks can afford to not play a colored source on turn 1 and on top of that not play many spells, seeing as if you ever fall below 6 cards you need at least 2 turns of no spell casting and no land drops just to get it active. Maintaining a 6 card grip all game long rarely happens and god forbid if you have to play a land, a spell and then fow all in one turn...youll never get it active. Giving up a colored source,Tempo and Spells to draw a card seems so much worse than BoB/Jace.

The lack of fast mana makes LoA worse than it would be in Vintage. Doing nothing for the first 3 turns aside playing 2 more lands while the opponent is on Goyf/Surv,Ritual/LED or Aether Vial/Wasteland is a beating. Most decks kill turn 4-5-Zoo,Merf,Gobs,Surv-. It isnt because there are other cards like Mox,Lotus,Recall/Walk, but because there are better draw engines like Bob and Jace that work every turn no matter how many cards are in your hand.

If a land isnt called Bazaar,Academy,Strip Mine or WorkShop it is weaksauce!

[Koby]

You forgot Wasteland, which even in Vintage is still devastating.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I agree all these Threads on Surv are the same posts all over the place.

But Why is unbanning LoA a bad opinion. The card isn't even played anymore in Vintage. Like seriously, maybe all of 10 decks played it all of this year. Its time has passed like so many of the cards on their archaic list. Turn one on play, drop LoA leaves you with 6 cards and no spells. BoB is far better.

Sorry but Vintage is not Legacy and that is a bad argument, I mean...

But Why is unbanning Balance a bad opinion. The card isn't even played anymore in Vintage. Like seriously, maybe all of zero decks played it all of this year.

It's just not a solid reasoning

I disagree. Outside of the control mirror, what decks can afford to not play a colored source on turn 1 and on top of that not play many spells, seeing as if you ever fall below 6 cards you need at least 2 turns of no spell casting and no land drops just to get it active. Maintaining a 6 card grip all game long rarely happens and god forbid if you have to play a land, a spell and then fow all in one turn...youll never get it active. Giving up a colored source,Tempo and Spells to draw a card seems so much worse than BoB/Jace.

The lack of fast mana makes LoA worse than it would be in Vintage. Doing nothing for the first 3 turns aside playing 2 more lands while the opponent is on Goyf/Surv,Ritual/LED or Aether Vial/Wasteland is a beating. Most decks kill turn 4-5-Zoo,Merf,Gobs,Surv-. It isnt because there are other cards like Mox,Lotus,Recall/Walk, but because there are better draw engines like Bob and Jace that work every turn no matter how many cards are in your hand.

If a land isnt called Bazaar,Academy,Strip Mine or WorkShop it is weaksauce!

Well first off you hit the nail on the head at the end there. Why play LoA when Academy, Bazaar, or Workshop exist and are all better options for actually winning the game. Second you act like card drawing, Life from the Loam, and cards that net you even when played (Brainstorm, Ponder, Daze, Jace) don't exist. Third, we don't have restricted, so the only option is 4x LoA or 0x LoA. Sure there aren't many decks that can draw-go and keep a full grip, but with tricks like Life From the Loam it's just not unsafe to unban Library. Library trigger also goes on the stack, so if you managed to get more than one Library out and 7 cards in hand you can activate one in resp to another. It's not as broken as most people think it is, but at the same time it's not as safe as you think it is especially as a 4x. Not to mention there are probably 10 other cards much safer to unban so why are you moving straight to Library? Another thing is, not that this should be a consideration, but Library would probably be a $250 card if it was unbanned in Legacy and Vintage.

[menace13]

You got me on the 1200$ playset. But Balance? ..Pff, while you're at it why don't you mention Tinker and YWill?

No, I did not say Library would not see play. You are correct and it is a powerful card, but is it half of the SCGs 5k season's top 16?
Maybe some sort of combo deck could play 4 Library besides control. As long as it doesn't get Surv banned there has to be a way to preserve the archetypes that card makes and at the same time bring something to keep it in check.
Jumping straight to Library is better than jumping straight to something that would see marginal play for example; Land Tax, Black Vise and Earthcraft and not have Survival or anything else banned in the process. WotC does not like to look silly by banning then unbanning only to ban again and maybe unban an additional time for old times' sake. Granted they did this for Gush, but once they ban something it tends to stay banned for a very long time at the least.
I think more bannings leads to more bannings( Yes, captain obvious strikes again). Possibly unban something else, Mystical is not going to be allowed anytime soon-if ever again- cards like Memory Jar, Gush, Frantic Search. What other cards are left?
I am not sure which ones, but pretty sure banning even more cards feels unsettling.

[Jak]

but balance? ..pff, while you're at it why don't you mention tinker and ywill?

woooooooooooooooooooooooooooossssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[dontbiteitholmes]

woooooooooooooooooooooooooooossssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

LOL, I know right. Is it wrong I get some sick satisfaction from participating in these threads?

[menace13]

woooooooooooooooooooooooooooossssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Sorry, I dont get the word woooooosssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sorry, I dont get the word woooooosssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh.

That was the sound of my point flying over your head.

When I said

Sorry but Vintage is not Legacy and that is a bad argument, I mean...

But Why is unbanning Balance a bad opinion. The card isn't even played anymore in Vintage. Like seriously, maybe all of zero decks played it all of this year.

It's just not a solid reasoning

I just took where you said

But Why is unbanning LoA a bad opinion. The card isn't even played anymore in Vintage. Like seriously, maybe all of 10 decks played it all of this year. Its time has passed like so many of the cards on their archaic list.

And replaced "LoA" with "Balance" to illustrate that the point you were trying to make by comparing a card that is a 1x in Vintage to it's strength as a potential 4 of in Legacy is entirely invalid. It's a pretty common debating tactic especially on this site to show that someone is applying questionable logic to a particular card. Anyways I expect this thread to be locked soon, no one wants to talk about Survival anymore and we are about a mile off topic. It's like Godwin's Law for MTG sites. As a thread gets longer the probability of it turning into a discussion of ban this vs. unban that approaches 1.

[menace13]

ummmm. I think you missed the point in the first place bringing up Balance when we were talking about Library. Those are not the same and terrible that you would say it is like saying so. IBL?

[brattin]

your logic:

if people rarely play a card in vintage, then it would be safe to unban in legacy
people rarely play library in vintage
therefore, library would be safe in legacy

he shows a counteraxample to your logic:

people rarely play balance in vintage
using your premise, (if people rarely play a card in vantage, then it would be safe to unban in legacy)
he can conclude it would be safe to unban balance in legacy
since it is obviously not the case that it would be safe to unban balance, there must be something else false in the preceding statements.
it's (presumably) true that people rarely play balance in vintage, therefore your premise (if people rarely play a card in vantage, then it would be safe to unban in legacy) must be false.

he didn't miss the point--the card is just irrelevent to the argument (if people rarely play a card in vantage, then it would be safe to unban in legacy).

on topic, sort of, i'd be happy to see all the vengevival discussion threads locked.

[menace13]

If that was my logic i would have mentioned Balance then.......

[GGoober]

I don't know why the hell are we suddenly talking about Vintage/Legacy transitions of banned/restricted cards. Just because a card isn't played in Vintage should never be a reason for it to be unbanned in Legacy. A card isn't played in Vintage because it isn't good enough for the meta. It doesn't speak of the power level of the card itself e.g. Balance is a terribly powerful card but is just terrible in the Vintage meta now. Does that mean it's safe to unban it in Legacy? Hell no. Because Balance could argubly be very well-played in Legacy looking at the meta. The color pie between the formats already suggests this. A big reason why Balance isn't played in Vintage is white is usually not a desirable splash color whereas in Legacy, white is considered a strong color due to the meta.

The same philosophies apply for other cards that are not popularly played in Vintage that are still banned in Legacy e.g. Library of Alexandria, Timetwister, Goblin Recruiter etc

[Gheizen64]

I don't know why the hell are we suddenly talking about Vintage/Legacy transitions of banned/restricted cards. Just because a card isn't played in Vintage should never be a reason for it to be unbanned in Legacy. A card isn't played in Vintage because it isn't good enough for the meta. It doesn't speak of the power level of the card itself e.g. Balance is a terribly powerful card but is just terrible in the Vintage meta now. Does that mean it's safe to unban it in Legacy? Hell no. Because Balance could argubly be very well-played in Legacy looking at the meta. The color pie between the formats already suggests this. A big reason why Balance isn't played in Vintage is white is usually not a desirable splash color whereas in Legacy, white is considered a strong color due to the meta.

The same philosophies apply for other cards that are not popularly played in Vintage that are still banned in Legacy e.g. Library of Alexandria, Timetwister, Goblin Recruiter etc

Beside the fact the logic was false, you have also to see that while Balance is "bad" in Vintage due to the fact that creature and lands are more often a non-issue and it's hard to capitalize on Balance in a format where a lot of the mana is off jewerly and the creatures played are usually bombs that lock you out of the game.
LoA suffer from more "universal" problems. First, it need a deck around it. Second, it need a very specific meta around it. Modern age decks tend to lay down cards too fast, in fact even control decks play quickly cards like top and counterbalance. In vintage, the main "control", prison, have to lay lock pieces as fast as possible. Draw-go isn't really a modern viable archetype. The only matchup where draw-go is a viable style is the control permission mirror. To make things worse, you can't actually play counterspells from LoA and you need to play counters with colorless in their mana cost (so no spell pierce, counterspell, spell snare, drain but cards like negate, mana leak etc...). If you start with a LoA on first turn, i can go Wild Nacatl or Lackey or Vial and invalidate your whole strategy. Playing FoW is also severely counterproductive with LoA on board. While LoA is probably too strong in modern Legacy, it's far more fair than people imagine. LoA was restricted because it was heavily distorting in old draw-go control mirrors and made them more luck-based than skill-based, times have changed from when Keeper was actually the best deck.
Imho it's overrated the same way Vault (and some other card, like Druid and else) is.

The philosophies that are applied in Vintage aren't to be applied in Legacy, but it's not like you can't learn anything from it.

[Tacosnape]

While it's probably not going to happen and I don't think it's really a big deal, I don't think Library of Alexandria would be all that nuts in Legacy, given that it requires you have a full hand to capitalize on and it dies to Wasteland. I think it's far less powerful than say, Bazaar of Baghdad. And it might even be less powerful that some lands still permitted in the format (IE, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.)

However, the prospect of getting two or three of these going at once is a little daunting and ridiculous and would probably be a game-ender for any control deck that wanted to fit it in (And a lot of them would.) So while you could debate its merit for quite some time, it's probably not going to be on the unbanning radar, especially given that card availability is one of the primary complaints of Legacy right now.

EDIT: Also, thank God there's only another week of me not playing Legacy until I figure out what they're doing with the stupid B/R list.

[DragoFireheart]

You know, you really have to admit the humor in the card [card]Survival of the Fittest[/cards]. Only the decks that are fit will survive in this meta change and I doubt survival will be banned. Combo decks are going to resurge up the wazoo once people get tired of losing with their pet decks. The meta may start to resemble Europe, where combo decks like TES are the deck to beat. I believe the meta will shift as following:


Vengevival
The Epic Storm
Ichorid
Anti-Vengevival Rogue decks (Enchantress, Combo elves, Burn etc)
Merfolk

TES and Ichorid are too fast for Veggies. Burn and combo elves can actually race a veggie deck, while enchantress can lock down the veggies with enchantments.

Merfolks will stick around as they are not terribad against veggies as they do have some counters to slow them down.

Zoo, Goblins and Countertop are likely to get pushed out. The increased storm decks will make sure the green men and cats go away, while Countertop gets stomped by veggies.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

You know, you really have to admit the humor in the card [card]Survival of the Fittest[/cards]. Only the decks that are fit will survive in this meta change and I doubt survival will be banned. Combo decks are going to resurge up the wazoo once people get tired of losing with their pet decks. The meta may start to resemble Europe, where combo decks like TES are the deck to beat. I believe the meta will shift as following:


Vengevival
The Epic Storm
Ichorid
Anti-Vengevival Rogue decks (Enchantress, Combo elves, Burn etc)
Merfolk

TES and Ichorid are too fast for Veggies. Burn and combo elves can actually race a veggie deck, while enchantress can lock down the veggies with enchantments.

Merfolks will stick around as they are not terribad against veggies as they do have some counters to slow them down.

Zoo, Goblins and Countertop are likely to get pushed out. The increased storm decks will make sure the green men and cats go away, while Countertop gets stomped by veggies.

I agree. Zoo and Countertop have done their top8's. It's about time the meta shifts. I don't think Goblins will be pushed away as long as they splash black though, especially with Zoo out of the way. Sounds like a healthy format to me.