Survival of the Fittest

[Koby]

It will become even more comical when Survival is banned and Vengevine still continues to dominate T8s with BUG lists that utilize Buried Alive and Intuition.

I will laugh at no end when I bring up how many failed ban attempts DCI made before finally axing Necropotence, because "it's better to kill the engine than the offending card". Vengevine is the clear culprit, and removing it from the equation will stabilize the metagame.

[Rune]

Unlike SotF, Intuition -> 3x Vengevine actually gets hosed by yard hate, so I don't see why that deck would happen.

[SpikeyMikey]

How so? EoT, I Intuition for 3 VV's, untap, make a mongrel, pitch VV and walla and beat for 12. How does that give you more time? They can still easily play around Relic and Crypt.

[4eak]

How so? EoT, I Intuition for 3 VV's, untap, make a mongrel, pitch VV and walla and beat for 12. How does that give you more time? They can still easily play around Relic and Crypt.

Relic/Crypt activation in response to VV triggers seems difficult to 'play around' in that circumstance. SotF has other options. Perhaps it depends on the build. I always have at least one Disenchant effect to tutor up with SoTF in GW versions, e.g. QPM. I'll tutor up, drop, and pop QPM against relic/crypt before I endanger my VVs. Intuition lacks that ability.



peace,
4eak

[AriLax]

1. 3 >> 2 when talking about mana. Survival being able to come down so fast while dodging Daze and Wastes more easily is huge.

2. One shotting the effect makes the deck much less resilient. I Wrath after the VV's come back off Intuition and I probably have a bit of time to stabilize. Against Survival I'm lucky to have a turn.

3. The difference between engine + 1 creature and engine + 2 creatures is not to be under estimated.

Also, I don't think WotC generally wants to promote a metagame where the "leveling" of people in the long term is to play non-interactive combo decks. And I say long term as Survival has the tools to hold it's own (albeit unfavorably) against those decks well enough to still exist in a metagame flooded with them and scare off the anti-anti-Survival decks.

[dahcmai]

Curious question would be if they do ban it, what's going to be top dog all of a sudden? Makes you wonder. I have to say reanimator since everyone will pick Zoo back up again and the newer Reanimator combo deck is silly fast.

[Artowis]

Buried Alive

You already fucked up if you plan on playing Buried Alive in Legacy.

SCG results, 4 survival decks in t8 with GW survival winning. Shocked I tells ya, shocked!

[keys]

In my opinion the best thing to do would not be to ban survival, or even vengevine; it would be to print some actual solid activation or search hate, so that Survival can be effectively hated out. Take Aven Mindcensor, shave a mana off and ditch the flying, and you have a solid card. Take suppression field, make it 1 per activation, and throw it on a grizzly bear for the same mana cost. I don't know, just ideas.

Knock yourself out...

[f|i[p]]

In a 66 player tourney yesterday no vengvine survivals made top 8. There were around 4 players or so, and what was interesting was, most of them got raped by affinity and dredge.

People are adjusting to vengevine survivals, it may not be as fast as people assume but survival decks act like combo decks but kills you around turn 4 or 5 instead requiring tons of mana and other requirements to be satisfied. I am long time survival player myself, and things just got stupid when vengevine came. It gave survival a very good option against control as well. Other than that, I dont think survival is going to be banned.

[Grollub]

Here's why the European meta is slower:

http://www.magiccardmarket.eu/

Bare in mind that 1.00 EUR = 1.34158 USD

This means that people in the US can buy an expensive deck for 1/3 of it's price here in Europe.

Cards are not an availability issue in Europe, sorry.

It's true that they have always been more expensive here than in the states, but we just grit our teeth and choke up or buy them online. Did you expect our PTQs, nationals and local tournaments to be dominated by junk.dec? If that's the case, I only have one thing to say, "lolz".

[Tacosnape]

On what are you based to claim that european meta doesn't change as fast as US meta ? Forgive us if we mainly don't play survival because we tested enough to know it is not the best deck. By the way, you lost your credibility when you said that survival has a good MU vs combo... It ill probably be my new signature...

Oh, and tell me why American people are ot able to win their own legacy GPs...

Can you READ?

The point of my post was that claiming general distinctions between Europe and the US was a ridiculous exercise.

Secondly, I never said Survival has a -good- matchup against combo. Never. Quote me on what I actually said and I'll stand by it.

Oh, and also, Survival beat ANT in the quarterfinals of SCG Richmond. Not that this matters to you, because clearly all results in the US are null and void on the grounds of us being a country of complete morons incapable of matching wits with your superior cranial prowess. Just saying.

[Crysthorn]

Oh, and also, Survival beat ANT in the quarterfinals of SCG Richmond.

It's more than that. According to Jared Sylva, various Survival builds had 58,33% matchup against Ad Nauseam during the last two months of SCG Opens.

[practical joke]

It's more than that. According to Jared Sylva, various Survival builds had 58,33% matchup against Ad Nauseam during the last two months of SCG Opens.

====> read tacosnape's previous post again.

I'll have to agree on that.
Let's get a bit deeper on that.

complete retards that play with combo can't win when the opponent makes it a bit difficult.
Every retard can play vengevival since it only has to drop survival, if not they can still drop random creature and beat face.

easy right. retards with combo < retards with vengevival



If you would have SCG's in Europe, that score would definately be a lot lower. Survival is having a hard time reaching top 8's at all.

[Mr. Safety]

Just piping in a few remarks that will hopefully spark some positive discussion:

1) How about UNBANNING some other cards in legacy, therefore creating a pull towards innovation?

2) Why not allow the format to 'suffer' for a short while, and then let itself readjust accordingly? Survival of the Fittest is not anything new to legacy, just Vengevine. It seems that players/deckbuilders just need to do some research and become a little more savvy with card choices.

3) Look at Mystical Tutor's banning...do you feel it was neccessary? I don't think so. Un-ban it, and you'll have traditional Reanimator to fight against Vengevine.

4) Is Pithing Needle NOT a good answer to Survival? Needle is pretty common tech that a lot of decks run in the main/side.

[deviant]

It's more than that. According to Jared Sylva, various Survival builds had 58,33% matchup against Ad Nauseam during the last two months of SCG Opens.

I'm sorry but I have this uncomfortable feeling that maybe not all of those people picking up storm can play it on the same level as those picking up survival.

Also, someone pointed out that we, who are proud to not have lost to deck x in tournaments should try to remember when we lost to bye.

Well, I went undefeated in our nats swiss and then punted my top8 mu against ww. A deck I would claim to be a bye for tes.

I have also lost a match 1-2 agianst an opponent making these plays:
G1: forest, llanowar elves, go.
G2: Forest, go (dunno what this was about, he prolly should have mulled)
G3: Forest, the 2/2 that untaps with G spells, go and then on his second turn some other elves.

I played Turn 2 Ad Nauseam, always from 18 or more life and fizzled twice.
EDIT: I was afraid he would be playing elf-combo and glimpse combo me if I waited. Well, he was just playing a casual elf deck..

(on a related note, I have also received an actual bye in a tournament, then proceeded to lose that round.)

[Skeggi]

There are so many ways to battle Survival of the Fittest. There are also alot of ways to battle Oath of Druids. Just sayin' (as a European, OMG!).

[Tinefol]

I'd even say there are many ways to battle Yawgmoth's Will. You know. And Bazaar of Baghdad.

</troll>

[jazzykat]

There are so many ways to battle Survival of the Fittest. There are also alot of ways to battle Oath of Druids. Just sayin' (as a European, OMG!).

Unban Oath! Aw yeah~!

[Amon Amarth]

Just piping in a few remarks that will hopefully spark some positive discussion:

1) How about UNBANNING some other cards in legacy, therefore creating a pull towards innovation?

2) Why not allow the format to 'suffer' for a short while, and then let itself readjust accordingly? Survival of the Fittest is not anything new to legacy, just Vengevine. It seems that players/deckbuilders just need to do some research and become a little more savvy with card choices.

3) Look at Mystical Tutor's banning...do you feel it was neccessary? I don't think so. Un-ban it, and you'll have traditional Reanimator to fight against Vengevine.

4) Is Pithing Needle NOT a good answer to Survival? Needle is pretty common tech that a lot of decks run in the main/side.

Whether Survival gets the axe or not there are certainly cards on the list that pale in comparison to many unbanned cards currently. Obligatory Land Tax sentence.

I'd still say there is room for innovation. I'm always suprised about what kind of decks people can come up with.

I'm still of mixed emotions about Mystical Tutor. I'm not sure, I'd probably leave it where it is.

I like Needle as a solution to Survival but it doesn't trump the deck. What it does is buy you quite a bit of time if it comes down early and is good against every variant and there is no shortage of other targets: Mongrel, jitte, mom, ooze, waste etc.

[DragoFireheart]

There are so many bad arguments being used that if each one was a pair of creatures coming down onto the battlefield, there would be dozens of Vegnevines munching on us.