Thanks for pointing out but we already know from the stats that when Survival is in the top tables most of them will make it in to top 8. You're right about this tournament, no different, with 3 survivals in the top 24, more than half of the top table ones made it in to top 8 with similar amount of TES and Landstill in the top 24 but not making top 8.Originally Posted by Meekrab
+1 again for your post though, you are right survival is dominant even though I don't think it is and don't think it should be banned, ho hum hum hum.
For what it's worth, I've been testing U/G Madness without Survival for the past couple of days. So far, the results are terrifying. The deck literally does not suffer any slowdown and with the addition of more discard outlets and Intuition actually seems to be only slightly less consistent. I have tested sets of 10 matches against Goblins, Countertop, Dreadstill, ANT, and Merfolk, and will be doing even more testing as the days pass.
Here are the results so far:
Vs Goblins: Madness won 9(!!!)/10 matches.
Vs Countertop: Madness won 7/10 matches.
Vs Dreadstill: Madness won 7/10 matches.
Vs ANT: Madness won 5/10 matches.
Vs Merfolk: Madness won 7/10 matches.
These results have led me to believe that Vengevine is the stone cold nuts all by itself. I want to test Zoo with Vengevine and Ranger of Eos next. My team is also working on a Breakfast variant that uses Vengevine as a backup plan - so far it's hilariously consistent in goldfishing, and I'll write a full report and primer once we are comfortable with its tournament performance, unless the DCI realizes how bonkers the card is and bans it first.
Edit:
Whether or not the DCI actually pulls the trigger determines what I get put on here next. If they do, underneath Survival Guy will say "R.I.P. Dec 2010". If nothing, it will say "I Survived Dec. 2010". If Vengevine, the dead Mogg will become a Vengevine.
Last edited by majikal; 12-07-2010 at 04:39 AM.
First of all I am not saying you have no respect for European players and I also have no problem with you personally at all. My comment was aimed at the banning and metagame discussions you've been in.
I'm sorry but I'm not going to spend a couple of hours to find an exact quote but should I happen to come across it some other time I am sure to let you know. But I'm referring to posts in which you basically disregarded the strength of combo decks and the role of MT in those decks in Europe and especially the Netherlands. Your reasoning basically was that because Zoo took so many top places in the US and combo didn't that there was no need to ban MT even though results in Europe proved something else.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
First alter ever I liked. Especially if that Mogg becomes a Vengevine.Edit:
Whether or not the DCI actually pulls the trigger determines what I get put on here next. If they do, underneath Survival Guy will say "R.I.P. Dec 2010". If nothing, it will say "I Survived Dec. 2010". If Vengevine, the dead Mogg will become a Vengevine.
Lol, I seriously doubt you can turn the dead mogg into a Vengevine :P
Ever heard of paint? I can turn it into whatever I want. :)
majikal can you post that list of UG madness here or on pvt?
To be honest I think it's because the american tournaments are generally larger, and thus the density of good legacy players is lower than in europe. If we had the same scale tournaments I wouldn't be suprised if we saw the same results over here, as VV-Sur is a brutal deck that smashes players making the slightest mistake while still being fairly forgiving for it's pilot.
Wasn't this actually the exact same scenario that happend during the Fires era in T2 some years ago?
-That's pretty insane.
-I'll be looking for it.These results have led me to believe that Vengevine is the stone cold nuts all by itself. I want to test Zoo with Vengevine and Ranger of Eos next. My team is also working on a Breakfast variant that uses Vengevine as a backup plan - so far it's hilariously consistent in goldfishing, and I'll write a full report and primer once we are comfortable with its tournament performance, unless the DCI realizes how bonkers the card is and bans it first.
(Imagines a Vengevine springing from the corpse of the dead Mogg).Edit:
Whether or not the DCI actually pulls the trigger determines what I get put on here next. If they do, underneath Survival Guy will say "R.I.P. Dec 2010". If nothing, it will say "I Survived Dec. 2010". If Vengevine, the dead Mogg will become a Vengevine.
Intuition + 3 VV has just about the same speed as Survival, argubly faster and more deadly since it's EOT 3 VVs. EOT Intuition followed up with Mongrel + Basking has a potential to kill turn 3.
Turn 1 Hierarch
Turn 2 Intuition
Turn 3 Mongrel + Basking or Shrieking Drake bounce Shrieking Drake
GB also has:
Turn 1 Ritual Buried Alive 3 VV
Turn 2 Putrid Imp + Basking etc
It looks janky, but the speed is still there, and the backup plan of VV is stil lthere to continue raping face. I've mentioned again and again that the deck is inherently a VV deck, not a survival deck, Survival is there to grab VV primarily, but used to setup for a backup win if VV are dealt with. Almost always, you win with VV.
I don't see VV going anywhere out of Legacy if Survival is banned. Note the above are the ideal plays. Less ideal plays still involve cheating 4/3 hasters slowly, which is argubly still a factor that stops the popularity of Countertop/Merfolks decks since they have a hard time dealing with VVs. The only problem these VV decks face without Survival is the risk of losing to Extirpate. And that's why Vengevival is strong. It doesn't simply lose to Extirpate (like Dredge losing to GY hate). If Survival is cut, the VV will be neutered, but saying they are completely useless is false. It's still terrifying with Buried Alive and Intuition, as janky as it sounds, it's still a fast and comparable clock considering most of the time, VVSurvival pulls out wins with VVs.
Can anyone summarize the evidence that Survival is not dominating in Europe, or anywhere outside of the SCG Open series?
A lot of people have posted top 8s by, but top 8s aren't very informative by themselves. For example, if a deck puts two people into the top 8 of a tournament, that could be a very good performance for an unpopular deck, or an unsurprising performance for a deck making up 20% of the field.
We have very detailed data from the SCG tournaments that is far more useful than top 8 results. I'd say that a metagame breakdown along with a top 8 is the minimum level of information required to consider a tournament as a serious data point in the same realm as the SCG series. Still, a selection of the eight best-performing decks doesn't provide as much information as individual placings and complete records of all the decks in the tournament. A tournament where you just have a top 8 and a metagame breakdown is going to be useful, but not as useful as any given SCG Open.
Someone posted average placings from the Dutch Legacy Championship, and you can find the metagame breakdown here. This shows Vengevine and Ooze Survival performing above average, but several other decks performing better. Vengevine Survival was played by 14 players (6.8%) and had an average place of 85.00 (out of 207). Ooze Survival had 7 players (3.4%), with an average place of 96.43. One Survival deck made top 8.
This is information about a 293-person Spanish tournament featuring 23 Survival decks (7.8%), two of which made top 8. That's a very good performance, but only a single data point.
There are a couple of other tournaments referenced in the Top 4s & Top 8s thread, like this one, a 112-person French tournament in which 3 people played Survival (and one made top 8), which don't tell us much about Survival's performance because there was so little of it.
This is all I've found about recent large Legacy tournaments outside of the SCG Open series. Some people are complaining that some other people only look at data from SCG tournaments. Well, please show me what other data is available, because I'd love to consider it, and I suspect I'm not the only one.
It's fair to note that at least the Dreadstill games were without sideboards. I imagine things are a little worse with 'Pates. But still, it was rediculous to see in action.
Tusk up.
That is awesome.
Whether or not the DCI actually pulls the trigger determines what I get put on here next. If they do, underneath Survival Guy will say "R.I.P. Dec 2010". If nothing, it will say "I Survived Dec. 2010". If Vengevine, the dead Mogg will become a Vengevine.
BTW, if it is vengevine that gets axed, make sure to eliminate the last shred of root!
Many posters here would prefer the unbanning of cards to try and balance the metagame, rather than further bannings. I personally disagree, as I believe that the fewer game-warping power cards that are available, the greater the potential diversity of the format. Eliminating such dominating cards as mystical tutor and survival of the fittest seems like it would allow a greater variety of decks that can compete, and thus maintain the huge diversity that legacy is popular for, and allow for more home-brewing and innovation.
This is mostly in the US, but it clearly dominates in my metagame (where many people are playing legitimate decks):
Hence, my earlier comments where I said the deck seems excessively strong. Please note that before this deck I only had relatively average placings.
As most magic players only (or primarily) play in local tournaments, shouldn't local tournament dominance be factored in?
This is going to be hilarious when Vengevine shows similar dominance. Of course, WOTC can't ever be wrong, so they'll find another way to deal with it (probably ban Intuition -- break yours when you still can, boys!).
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
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Yeah the games I played against you in Richmond were pretty dumb. The thing that sticks out the most to me is how a resolved Intuition can just end the game. I'd love to get more actual testing in with paper cards, since most of my data is coming from sessions on MWS with some guys I know from NC. Maybe not the best metric for the brokenness of VV sans SotF, but I'm confident my friends have at least an average to slightly higher playskill, which is what you will normally come across in the SCG tournaments at least.
Extirpate, as you said, stops the recursion shenanigans, but I think that by changing up my tactics I would still be able to win by hardcasting VVs and swarming them with a bunch of little dudes. I think more of a problem would arise if people started playing Extirpate in addition to Firespout, but URB seems to be an unpopular color combination for some reason.
Something that I really want to try but haven't gotten around to is Greater Good. It serves as a late-stage advantage engine, protecting Vengevines from StP, while also providing a madness outlet. 4 mana may be a bit hefty though.
At any rate, you, me and Zack need to get together one weekend and just test the shit out of a bunch of stuff. Has he shown you the Breakfast list we came up with yet?
So can i get that "no survival" UG list?
I was going to sit on it until after Dec. 20, but since I won't be able to make it to the next few Open tournaments, I guess someone will ride in and destroy people with something similar before I get around to it, so sure.
Keep in mind this is still a pretty rough list and I'm constantly moving cards around.
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Quirion Ranger
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Aquamoeba
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Vengevine
4x Basking Rootwalla
1x Shield Sphere/Wonder
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Intuition
2x Umezawa's Jitte (I am going to test Greater Good in this slot soon)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
3x Forest
2x Island
1x Gaea's Cradle
One thing that I've noticed in testing so far, is that I hardly ever want to use Fauna Shaman. I'm thinking of replacing it and Quirion Ranger with Tarmogoyf and Careful Study or Daze.
This is exactly the problem with banning every problem card, rather than unbanning things. With 13,000 or whatever cards already printed, there will ALWAYS be another problem card.
Make a new topic then.. why not. If SotF gets axe.. I'd defo throw out Fauna/Quirion, maybe, MAYBE add burried alive.
Carefull study could work.
Goyf? perhaps.
Top 24? Is that a results bracket you just invented to maximize the denominator on that fraction?
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