[Deck] Solidarity

[Seraphus]

You can just think about this: solidarity can, and do, respond to every spell every play that your op throw at you, now think that spring tide is depended on the faeries, for me solidarity is better, although slower, the advantage of being capable of respond to something and stack war you op is the ultimate advantage that this deck have, however it is also it's great weakness, since solidarity is largely accepted ( except by the future Nobel prize winners,) as the most complex and hard to play deck ever made!

Considering all variables solidarity is best in my opinion, but to give you more flaws on spring tide i have to stay all day writhing lool

[MGC_player]

I've had fun playing both Spring Tide and Solidarity but here is a little more idea on the differences. As mentioned by the post above mine Solidarity plays everything at instant speed which gives it the ability to just go off in the face of anything and most likely win the stack war. It also has a stronger Untap engine that Spring Tide in the form of Reset. Although slower than Spring Tide, the speed is traded for consistency and a stronger late game.

Spring Tide is faster than Solidarity (it being capable of going of turn 2), but it trades the consistency and ability to respond to spells that Solidarity has. Also unlike Solidarity which waits till the last possible moment to go off, Spring Tide wants to go off as soon as it can. It does have a better draw engine and is capable of assembling its combo faster due to things like Merchant Scroll, but it is much more dependent on a resolved High Tide due to the weaker untap engine (Cloud of Faeries and Snap). It can also play with the stack, but is not as good with it as Solidarity.

[Bahamuth]

since solidarity is largely accepted ( except by the future Nobel prize winners,) as the most complex and hard to play deck ever made!

I can without doubt give you a decklist that's much harder to pilot correctly actually. Also, I doubt anyone on these boards has the info to claim that it's the most complex deck 'ever'.

[i-never-smile]

Round 3: Goblins
Game 1 – Turn 1 vial. Turn 2 Lackey countered, vials in Lackey. Turn 3 Warchief et-al. Turn 4, dead.

You say the turn 2 Lackey was countered. What did you use to counter it? I asssume from your list that you posted that you didn't play Hydroblast, so I'm guessing you used a Force. So what did you pitch to Force? Odds are actually fairly high that you probably pitched something that could have given you the gas to combo off, or at least give you a better shot at it. A lot of the time, I think Forcing something is actually a blunder. In the case of playing versus Goblins, I never ever force a turn 1 Vial, but I will force a Lackey. A turn 2 lackey, however, is basically something that can stick--at that point, it's too slow to actually do the damage intended. Especially if they have a Vial on the table as well, it's not like countering that turn 2 Lackey is actually going to stop much. In that case, you're already losing the game as a control deck, so shift gears and play like a combo deck.

You really should be boarding at least 2-3 Blasts in your board. I like boarding out 2 Forces and something else (usually the second Brain Freeze) for 3 Hydroblasts against Goblins, and this really makes it easier to handle that deck. Hydroblast is also arguably a better solution to opposing Red Blasts, and it can be used to shoot down Lackeys if you draw it on turn 1 on the draw.

[Seraphus]

I can without doubt give you a decklist that's much harder to pilot correctly actually. Also, I doubt anyone on these boards has the info to claim that it's the most complex deck 'ever'.

http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article...olidarity_deck


Can someone give me a list of the matches where usually you'll win by playing Hunting Pack?

[Sims]

http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article...olidarity_deck

No offense man, but just because it says so in a Wiki, especially one on Salvation, doesn't mean it's true.

[Seraphus]

No offense man, but just because it says so in a Wiki, especially one on Salvation, doesn't mean it's true.

Good so to finish the discussion and move on with the deck related questions: solidarity isn't the most complex nor harder to play deck...

Moving on...

Please if someone that usually plays the green splash would do me the favor of post the list of decks that hunting pack is normally used against, i appreciate it, Thanks....

[GoldenCid]

Guys...i'm going into a big tounament tomorrow and i want to play Solidarity. My list:

// Lands
9 [4E] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Tropical Island

// Spells
3 [TE] Meditate
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [US] Turnabout
2 [RAV] Remand
4 [LG] Reset
4 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [FE] High Tide (2)
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
3 [IN] Opt
4 [VI] Impulse
2 [CHK] Peer Through Depths
2 [VI] Three Wishes

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [FE] High Tide (2)
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [OD] Words of Wisdom
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away (indeed necesary?)
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [UL] Snap
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact (Yes, i expect survival with retainers and iona MD)
SB: 1 [SC] Hunting Pack


I really need some tips or tricks from you to have in consideration for the event. The meta could be quite open but i need general advise. I'd like to add 1 mindbreak trap in side but i'm not sitll sure what to cut.

Could you help me??

Thx in advance!

[Seraphus]

remove the Slaughter pact because it's a one of and mindbreck trap vs survival bant (with iona) is good enough since the retainers is a one of you can counter war your opp and mindbreack trap it removing the card from the game....

And yes the question of the wipe away can be put but only if you run main deck repeal and cryptic command...

[i-never-smile]

@GoldenCid: For starters, I think you are WAY overboard on the wishboard. This is going to seriously detract from your ability to properly sideboard, which will translate into weaker matches in the long run. All matches are best out of 3, which means that you're going to be playing at least 50% sideboarded games--and sideboarded games will ultimately determine your victories and defeats. I would strongly urge you to cut about half of the shit out of your sideboard and play a lot more stable solution cards in there instead. Even with 4 Wishes, at least a third of the stuff in your sideboard has to be superfluous.

When dealing with Survival, I prefer Spell Snare to basically anything else. I think this is just a really good metagame for Snares anyways, considering that it hits Surival, a number of relevant Merfolks (stalling their clock by a turn usually), Standstill, hatebears, Counterbalance, Goyf, Bob, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish, and Counterspell. I actually maindeck 2 of them in the slot where I would otherwise run some Peers or Cryptics or Twincasts--it appears this slot is occupied by Three Wishes in your deck.

By the way, how is Three Wishes working out as a 2-of maindeck? I like the card advantage aspect of it, but so often for me it just hit a land and 2 spells, and I couldn't even use that land as brainstorm fodder.

I understand Hunting Pack's strength, but why the fuck aren't you running Krosan Grip??! I thought that was the most prominent reason to splash a color (and weaken the manabase) in the first place.... I can understand only running one Wipe Away in a green splash build, but you should be sideboarding in some Grips to make up for that when you play CB and Dreadnaught decks (among other crap).

[GoldenCid]

To i never smile and Sepharus: Thx you both for your advices. I'll go for parts.

A - It's ok about S. pact i'll try the second trap.

B- What is exactly the crap of my wish board? Could you suggest one?

C- I'm not really sure about snare main deck. That's because when you go off is awful hit a counter as well as a land. Maybe 4 FoW and 2 Remand are tight i think that's is good when you're going off.

D- 3 Wishes does it well. Indeed it gave me move stability at the time of going off. Almost a medite, it frecuently hits a land, yes, but additional spells 2 spells too. I feel confortable with it.

E- Yeah, KG goes in the W. away slot. Was a copy paste mistake.

F- 18 Lands is right?

G- Would you run hydroblast in side??

[I am the brainwasher]

Hey Cid,
running 18 lands is fine (In 3 Tourneys I was screwed in only 2 Games, also playing 18 lands+3 Opt), but I am not sure if 7 Fetches are necessary or required. Also the 2 Tropicals are quite much and I would play rahter 1 Island more, then if you want it badly, you can play your 7 fetches if you felt good about it in the games youve played. The thing is you really want to avoid having that Trop. as one of your "normal" landdrops, Wasteland is really bothering when it comes down to that.

Spell Snare in the maindeck isnt tested by myself but I can tell you from the games Ive played (and Ive played a looot of games with the deck, not just those Tourneys ive mentioned) that I never wanted to have one.

You can beat slow counterdecks so easy when you got enough lands in play, even without Mindbreak Trap. I am rather worried about those hard Aggro-controlish Decks like Vengevival-UG or Merfolk. I normally play at least 2 Dispel in my board which works wonders here. The thing is that the Trap often cant be played for , because they have no 3 Counters, and Dispel is the card you need in those scenarios. I normally cut all or 3 of the Forces and board cards that give me time (Echoing Truth, Snap in your build, etc.) plus those Dispels. Its way easier to go off with more lands in play and just one Dispel than with 4 Mana and Forces.
And if he runs that many counters in such a scenario, wish for that Trap and wipe away his counters, if he counters again that Trap, remand it and whoop his ass.

I made good Experiences with Hibernation, thats what I would definetly play atm. Good against: Progenitus, Enchantress, NO-Elves, sometimes Zoo, Can-Thresh, Bant, Vengevines (Echoing truth is also very nice) and much more. Play it, really.

I dont play Hydroblasts atm, but thats only because I play at least 3 Repeals in the lists I am Testing right now. 1-2 Hydroblast is fine if you have a rather high count of Gobs and 5 color TES or some in your meta, just do some spy action before the tourney!
Three Wishes isnt necessary. I never wanted or missed it in a single game. Impulse, Meditate, Peer and others make long enough Spell-chains to ensure the goal of milling the opponent.

I can show you my current sb, but you really have to keep in mind that I play at least 3 Repeals and at least 3 Remand in my lists and also at least 19 lands. This is part of my playstyle I am trying to slow down my opponent way more than the most Solidarity lists I saw all over the net; it works for me really great, but thats not true for other players. I also play 3 Tide main and 4 wish. To return to the thing I want to show you:

1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius (Testing Vision Skeins in that slot atm)
1 Wipe Away (In some Metas I could see Curfew in that Slot)
1 Hibernation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Dispel
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 High Tide


I hope I could help you out, good luck!

[GoldenCid]

Thx you so much for your advices!!! If feel confidant to play this deck i'll report you every match!!

[Olesch]

@brainwasher

Your route by slowing down sounds interesting. Could you please post your deck and your thoughts about it and the different play situations that you do in slowing down?

Hey Cid,
running 18 lands is fine (In 3 Tourneys I was screwed in only 2 Games, also playing 18 lands+3 Opt), but I am not sure if 7 Fetches are necessary or required. Also the 2 Tropicals are quite much and I would play rahter 1 Island more, then if you want it badly, you can play your 7 fetches if you felt good about it in the games youve played. The thing is you really want to avoid having that Trop. as one of your "normal" landdrops, Wasteland is really bothering when it comes down to that.

Spell Snare in the maindeck isnt tested by myself but I can tell you from the games Ive played (and Ive played a looot of games with the deck, not just those Tourneys ive mentioned) that I never wanted to have one.

You can beat slow counterdecks so easy when you got enough lands in play, even without Mindbreak Trap. I am rather worried about those hard Aggro-controlish Decks like Vengevival-UG or Merfolk. I normally play at least 2 Dispel in my board which works wonders here. The thing is that the Trap often cant be played for , because they have no 3 Counters, and Dispel is the card you need in those scenarios. I normally cut all or 3 of the Forces and board cards that give me time (Echoing Truth, Snap in your build, etc.) plus those Dispels. Its way easier to go off with more lands in play and just one Dispel than with 4 Mana and Forces.
And if he runs that many counters in such a scenario, wish for that Trap and wipe away his counters, if he counters again that Trap, remand it and whoop his ass.

I made good Experiences with Hibernation, thats what I would definetly play atm. Good against: Progenitus, Enchantress, NO-Elves, sometimes Zoo, Can-Thresh, Bant, Vengevines (Echoing truth is also very nice) and much more. Play it, really.

I dont play Hydroblasts atm, but thats only because I play at least 3 Repeals in the lists I am Testing right now. 1-2 Hydroblast is fine if you have a rather high count of Gobs and 5 color TES or some in your meta, just do some spy action before the tourney!
Three Wishes isnt necessary. I never wanted or missed it in a single game. Impulse, Meditate, Peer and others make long enough Spell-chains to ensure the goal of milling the opponent.

I can show you my current sb, but you really have to keep in mind that I play at least 3 Repeals and at least 3 Remand in my lists and also at least 19 lands. This is part of my playstyle I am trying to slow down my opponent way more than the most Solidarity lists I saw all over the net; it works for me really great, but thats not true for other players. I also play 3 Tide main and 4 wish. To return to the thing I want to show you:

1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius (Testing Vision Skeins in that slot atm)
1 Wipe Away (In some Metas I could see Curfew in that Slot)
1 Hibernation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Dispel
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 High Tide


I hope I could help you out, good luck!

[I am the brainwasher]

Sure I can, youre welcome.

Here's the list:

1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Snow-Covered Island
13 Island (20 lands)

----------------------------------------

4 Brainstorm
3 High Tide
4 Repeal

4 Impulse
4 Remand
4 Reset
3 Brain Freeze
1 Flash of Insight

4 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate

2 Turnabout

4 Force of Will
----------------------------------------


1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius (Testing Vision Skeins in that slot atm)
1 Wipe Away (In some Metas I could see Curfew in that Slot)
1 Hibernation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Dispel
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 High Tide



I could literaly see the expression in your faces right here.
At first I want to say, that you should feel free to criticise! Really...
BUT
I would be pleased if that criticism is well thought and founded by testing as well the list as checking my arguments and decisions that created that list.
Ok, I try to sum up the most important points that you might have mentioned in the list I posted.

4 Remand:
Remand works for me not just as a cute trick with Brain Freeze. I play it most of the times to really kinda timewalk my opponent or Remand my own spells in the combo against counters. In my list you dont have to play it as well thought as in other builds, I always had a very confident feeling, knowing that it is just fine to cantrip and slow down the opponent and know that I dont have to worry about the number of those left Remands in my deck/hand.
Remand plays a very different role in my build than in the most lists and I am really not so conservative with it. I play only 4 Brainstorm and Impulse as Cantrips and Remand (plus those 4 Repeal) is often the card thatz gives me the land I need plus slowing down the opponent.

4 Repeal:
Adding a full playset was just a rough test at the beginning, but I want to explain this evolution.
At first I played those 2 Cryptic Command in the classic lists. Then gone up to 2 Repeals and 1 Cryptic Command, because I always had the feeling that bouncing a CC1 Creature/Vial or Mox is just amzing against many decks. After a lot of testing, I was thinking about changing my maindeck to a build, that has a extremely powerful lategame. The problem was just that this wouldnt do well against all Aggro/Aggro-Control decks. So I decided to still rely on that lategame, adding cards that give me a few turns against the decks that I normally dont have ANY lategame against because they are too fast. What should I say, Repeal is just one awesome card for that. The only deck I dont wana see this against (or where it does matter if you draw it or not) is definetly TES, but thats okay for me, they just go out for Traps/Dispels or some in g2/3.
And besides that, I cant imagine the last game I lost against Counterbalance with that list, really. I dont say that this is the optimum, but I wouldnt go down to under 3 Repeals at the moment. It is just insane how much time you could buy yourself with 4 Remand AND 4 Repeal; as I mentioned before, this is my playstyle, you dont have to agree on that.

3 Brain Freeze:
In the games Ive played, I always recognized that I build up long spell chains to find the final Brain Freeze(Brain Freeze,Remand,Brain Freeze) or Cunning Wish. I didnt liked that because I always had the feeling that this makes me more vulnerable and is just a complication that is not necessary. 3 Brain Freeze make it way more easy to kil with a rather low stormcount and allow sick stacking actions with only 1 Flash of Insight in the whole 75. Another reason is that it is way easier to beat Show and Tell with 4 Remand/3 Brainfreeze and a Ravenous Trap/Stroke in sb. In counter-wars it is also nice to really have the last word with more than 2 Brainfreeze in the maindeck.

Normally I am not a fan of the Tide as a wishtarget but I really want those 4 Wishes and slowing down the opponent allows me normally to find a Tide on turn 3 or 4 with wish.

I always felt superior against all decks that dont put a fast clock on me with that list. My biggest problems are Merfolk with that very fast hands with counterbackup, Vengevival (all colors, that cards needs to go). Zoo and TES can be difficult sometimes.
Dont get me wrong, the deck by itself, as well as my list isnt something godlike or a guaranteed win. It is just the Version I feel very confident about. Going off with more lands and not losing to counterbalance anymore does a good job for me.

Greetings, IatB

[Silent Requiem]

Slowing down our opponents is a recurring theme with Solidarity, but the unspoken caveat is that our efforts should not slow ourselves down. Once our anticipated clock increases beyond turn 4, we are just a weak control deck with a combo finish. We would be better off playing MUC or Landstill or CounterTop.

Your build looks like it wants to combo off on turns 5-6, which I feel is simply too slow. You mention having a problem with Zoo, Survival and TES. All of those are matchups that (in tournaments and in testing) I generally win, and I think your issues arise from your build.

Zoo and Survival both require speed, and Remand is too slow if we are on the draw, as is Repeal. A real control deck has the tools to deal with multiple early threats, but we don't; we have to race. Any loss of speed will hurt your build's game against these decks.

TES is a different creature. We can't race it, so we have to disrupt. Here, our big advantage is our strong library manipulation and our ability to go off with very few cards in hand - at any moment we might top-deck our win - which means that the longer the game goes on the better things look for us. You seem to have traded better top-decks/control of your library for marginally more disruption. I'm not sure you can lock down TES for so much longer with your additional control elements that you will make up for your decreased card quality.

That said, it's awesome to see you experimenting with the deck and customizing your build; ultimately, if you are getting the results you want, you don't need to convince any of us of a damn thing.

I would ask how long you have been playing the deck, though. If your profile is anything to go by, I would be extremely wary of making such sweeping changes to such a complicated deck after such a short time playing the deck. My views on the subject can be found here.

http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2010/1...ilent-requiem/

-Silent Requiem

[Dark Ritual]

The problem with running 3 brain freeze MD is that pre combo it is a terrible card unless you have a brainstorm and shuffle effect to put it away or a PtD or Impulse which can act as pseudo shuffle effects while comboing and getting to stack your deck. I only run 1 brain freeze in my MD and 1 in my SB of course so mitigate drawing them in my opener or pre combo. I have no problem's searching for a brain freeze effect though since I run 4 wishes for the 1 in board as well as 4 PtD, 4 Impulse, 3 meditate, and of course the rest of the cantrips and stuff so it's easy to get to. And spell chains are generally really long with my list it isn't unusual for me to showboat all the way past 20 storm and beyond so I don't need remand + brainfreeze that often except in those big counterwars where both players play out their hands and I go brain freeze you, remand it, then do it again decking you lol.

Also brainwasher how can you not run impulse as a 4 of MD? I absolutely love that card in here pre combo and during the combo. I guess you don't have to search for lands often with 20 lands total but I run 18 lands so I fizzle less when I combo unless I am forced to go off with 3 lands which is difficult unless I have a godhand with 2 high tides + lots of other goodies which I used in a tournament a week ago in response to a vindicate on one of my lands I had to go off since I was landscrewed otherwise. It was such a god hand though lol.

[I am the brainwasher]

@Silent Requiem:

A few things have to be said, which might were a bit misleading in my post. The matchups against TES and Zoo went out definetly more good than bad for me, but those decks can be more categorized to the decks that I dont want to play against as likely as against others. Those are not bad matchups, but not as easy as many other decks. I lost and won against them, but not enough to say that those are worse.

To the point that you mentioned about the experience of combo-players:
This is a very, very important thing in the whole discussion here and every other Thread about combo decks. I am glad that someone is touching that point. I agree with you that you should be very careful, especially if you are going to become a combo-player or start piloting a new combo deck. Agreed in all points.
For myself I can say, that I play Solidarity since I red the article of Simon Ritzka of placing 2nd at germany Legacychampionship.
This is rather late, because, as I found out later, this decks best days were over in most of the Legacyplayers eyes and the high times where this was THE deck to beat between Goblins and Landstill were years ago.
I played different kind of combo decks in the past, including KCI, Dragonstorm, Spinerock knoll, pyro-swath, Minds Desire as it was extended legal and Scrambled Eggs (one of the most impressive decks I have ever played, if someone remembers that deck).
I started playing Tourneys with Solidarity no more than half a year ago. Thats not much.
I started playing this deck not in Tourneys maybe since october 2008. Thats much more.
I can definetly feel honest and confident when I say that I do know how to play a deck when I am shuffling it in my hands. But this does not include that I am perfect or one of the best players, definetly.
That is the reason I joined this Thread trying to become a better player and support the playes that are also willing to improve their gaming skills, beeing ambitious is necessary if you want to be more than average!

To the bad matchups against Merfolk and Vengevival (which are definetly my worst). I see your points there. You are more experienced than I am and you are way more successful than me. I am thankful for every advice I could get, really. I am not winning those matchups (especially Vengevival) rather reliable and I need more experience and it bothers me that I loose to those more than I win
If you can decribe the matchups, your choices and boarding/playing-plans, I would be glad.
Survival isnt played much in germany and I really see that ban-hammer hitting it after Worlds, those are also reasons for my actual list (worlds is day 3 right?).

@Dark Ritual:
Uhm, I also wouldnt go under 4 Impulse. Thats why I play 4 of em. Isnt that realized in my list? If thats not the case, I am sorry, I play 4.
3 Brain Freeze:
Its the first time I have ever played 3 in a list, but worked out good as well as I have played. If it is not necessary or making any sense to you thats pretty ok. I was playing that rather classical list with 18 lands before I created my new list. The thing is, and thats the point which is important, I have won more games with my new list than with the old. Thats important for me.
It needs to be analyzed and tested out more, which change in my list is responsible for that and I am working on that one. If I have found out I well tell.
As mentioned before, this isnt the list that I would expect anyone to play. I showed my list because I was asked.
Besides that, my sideboard seems pretty solid to me, thats where it all started with.

[Morton_Salt]

I played again against Goblins and went off a lot more often than the last time I played. I think just playing the deck more allows me to get better at it. I still don't like having to wait for high tide to have to go off though. Sometimes if there isn't a lethal attack on the board I usually just accumulate lands until my opponent passes priority to me before his attack. Need to play against other decks as the decks that I face are DTB but on a budget (Goblins with Lackey but no ports or Merfolk without Vials, etc)

[Dark Ritual]

Sorry I fail at reading decklists apparently you do run 4 impulse didn't see it at the top of the third section of decklist there...

Sometimes it is the right move to go off before the opponent can deal you lethal if you think you won't be able to stroke/skeins them in the same turn or turnabout their team. Do what you think is going to win you the game the highest % of the time and sometimes this is correct. Sometimes it is very wrong though. Spring tide is a whole different matter though it's like TES, belcher, SI, and ANT.