This thread is so massive I don't know where to jump in. I just started playing this list as well as joined the site, I used to be a vintage player so I saw this deck back in the Mirrodin days, and decided to give it a whirl. I don't think I'm qualified to add to the discussion now, but I was wondering can anyone point me towards match up analysis for this list? I have read some vintage stuff but nothing legacy specific.
thanks!
Here's a slightly outdated primer I made for Belcher a while back.
The List:
1x Taiga
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Grim Monolith
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Manamorphose (Could be Pyretic Ritual, but sometimes you need G, UU, B, or BB)
4x Seething Song
Sideboard:
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Tendrils of Angony
1x Pyroclasm
4x Xantid Swarm
4x Ingot Chewer
Hurr Belcher Primer
1) Mulliganing Decisions
at 7: Keep any hand capable of
a) Burning wish with 4 mana floating- (on the draw you can have 3)
b) Empty the Warrens for 10 goblins (8 on the draw)
c) Goblin Charbelcher with maximum 2 topdecked mana source required to get there (on the draw 2)
at 6:
Keep any of the above, as well as ETW for 8, or burning wish needing 1 extra mana source.
at 5:
Keep any of the above and any hand with less than 3 win conditions
at 4:
Keep anything except 4 win condition hands.
2) When do you go off?
The answer is basically as soon as possible preboard. You WILL lose to FoW 8/11th of the time, and it's probably not worth trying to draw cards for Daze mana unless you have ETW, as you give your opp turns to establish other defenses. Remember that even if you are stopped by a force, correct playing of mana sources (never remove an SSG except as part of casting spells orplaying abilities, don't crack permanent mana sources unless you have to).
Postboard, I would go to 6 looking for Empty or Xantid Swarm, but if you don't have it, just go for it anyway.
3) What are your wish targets for?
Empty the Warrens-your basic Burning Wish Target. most time you will have 6 mana to go Bwish-Empty for 10-14 goblins.
Infernal Tutor-Helps with BWish-LED basically. If you have 4BR after LED/BWish, makes your ETW +1 storm. If goblins will not get there (like versus Tabernacle or something) you can tutor for charbelcher. (Don't get cute with Itutor if your opp has an island-Daze or Spell Pierce can ruin your day if you don't keep the extra mana open) If you can generate 4BBBR, it gives you +2 storm for a Tendrils (This is relevant because you need 9 storm+Tendrils to kill--mostly after a Diminishing Returns, but sometimes with multiple LEDs/Manamorphose). If you have 8B (Bwish+3 LEDs, probably) you can IT for Charbelcher and win.
Tendrils of agony--if your opponent somehow manages to damage himself, like with fetchlands, you can win easy with this. Also, On the draw, you might have 8-9 spells, depending on how many SSG/ESG and Manamorphoses you end up with. If it's high enough, BWish-Tendrils for 20 is an option.
Diminishing Returns--when you won't get there with Warrens and only have 4 or 5 mana so IT-Charbelcher isn't an option, or when you need to try and win THIS TURN and don't have enough storm or mana to IT-Charbelcher or Tendrils (like if you are facing down Emrakul or something.)
Remember, you can only generate B and U mana through LED and manamorphose so keep that in mind when you try to win "exotically"
Answers:
Reverent Silence-Leyline of Sanctity, Moat, Elephant Grass, and other troublesome enchantments. Remember you need Taiga for this to be free.
Shattering Spree-Ensnaring Bridge, Thorn of Amethyst and other troublesome artifacts.
Pyroclasm-Gaddock Teeg, Meedling Mage, Ethersworn Canonist (not on the same term) other people's ETWs, and other creature annoyances.
3) Sideboarding.
In general, you want to cut 4 Manamorphose for 4 Xantid Swarm in most matchups. Grim Monolith allows you to "bank" mana in certain situations, which is better than +1 Storm IMO. Bear in mind that you now are totally reliant on LED for your "exotic" wins, but such is life. You will still get rocked by Mindbreak Trap out of nonblue decks, so might as well belt and suspenders. If your opponent instead has Chalice or Trinisphere, go with Ingot Chewer. If they have both blue and artifact disruption, you are in for a bumpy ride, and should SB 2-4 Chewer 4 Swarm for 4 Manamorphose 2-4 Grim monolith. Obviously versus other combo you probably want to board nothing. Nowadays, you might want to cut Chewer from the board for Guttural Response, at which point you board out 4 manamorphose 4 monolith in every match where you see U and do nothing otherwise.
Thanks!! That's an awesome start!!
What's the ideal SB for Belcher (no BWish) deck in an aggro meta? Is the GenCon 2nd place Belcher still viable? I dont like his Sb though that's why im asking. Thanks!
Ideally you should be able to just go off before they kill you. In an aggro meta you are the combo deck, they need to answer you. That being siad, expect aggros decks to bring in hate cards against you. The biggest ones are probably "Chalice" "Null Rod" or maybe "Meddling Mage" or "Gaddock Teeg." I'd look at Krosan Grip to deal with enchantment and artifact hate and Grapeshot to deal with the creatures. Not playing Burning Wish is a problem here, but you should win game one, so you have to chances plus mulls to pull it off. Good luck!
In my non-Wish list I have the ff as SB:Originally Posted by defector
3 Deus of Calamity
2 Pyroblast
2 REB
3 Xantid Swarm
5 ?????
I want to try the non-Wish build first at it seems that that is not a complicated build for beginners like me because you just win via ETW or Belcher. I just need 5 cards for the free SB slot though. I dont know what to place. Thanks
LED and manamorphose aren't your only blue source. There is also lotus petal. Just a little nitpick.
For those 5 slots I suggest guttural response's. You can remove ESG to play them is the reason. And add in a wishboard really, wish isn't that hard to use. Game 1 it usually grabs EtW. Game 2 and 3, EtW is an option as is reverent silence as is diminishing returns. Infernal tutor is simple to use; if you have boat loads of mana, as in 9+ mana, get charbelcher and kill with belcher. It typically isn't that hard to get hellbent with it. And secondly, I suggest you max out pyroblasts before you play REB because you can pyroblast any card including a land to get hellbent or raise the storm count if you have 5 mana and an EtW in hand. Burning wish + LED is sick sauce. Also tendrils is a somewhat rogue choice in the SB most builds don't run it some do. The play I like against combo decks without ill-gotten gains is a first turn tendrils for 16 or something so AdN doesn't work at all since they have such a low life total
Also, why do people play deus of calamity and other such cards in the board? The man plan seems pretty terrible in this deck since a deus of calamity is essentially a charbelcher; counter it and you generally lose.
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Okay I will probably go with the Bwish. Will try to post list asap. Thnks guys.LED and manamorphose aren't your only blue source. There is also lotus petal. Just a little nitpick.
For those 5 slots I suggest guttural response's. You can remove ESG to play them is the reason. And add in a wishboard really, wish isn't that hard to use. Game 1 it usually grabs EtW. Game 2 and 3, EtW is an option as is reverent silence as is diminishing returns. Infernal tutor is simple to use; if you have boat loads of mana, as in 9+ mana, get charbelcher and kill with belcher. It typically isn't that hard to get hellbent with it. And secondly, I suggest you max out pyroblasts before you play REB because you can pyroblast any card including a land to get hellbent or raise the storm count if you have 5 mana and an EtW in hand. Burning wish + LED is sick sauce. Also tendrils is a somewhat rogue choice in the SB most builds don't run it some do. The play I like against combo decks without ill-gotten gains is a first turn tendrils for 16 or something so AdN doesn't work at all since they have such a low life total
Also, why do people play deus of calamity and other such cards in the board? The man plan seems pretty terrible in this deck since a deus of calamity is essentially a charbelcher; counter it and you generally lose.
I agree 100% about Deus being a bad idea. For the sidebaord go to 4 Xantid Swarms, thsi deck draws poorly so if your facing control you want the redundancy of your best anti control card. You'll be happy with the Burning Wish, also look at "Regrowth" in the board as wish tech, love it! Anyway, good luck with it!
You can't really afford to get too cute with your Wish targets or SB plans. Any answer that costs more than 1 mana costs too much, IMO.
Well, I'm new to the discussion, but here's what I've been playing lately. It's a bit off the beaten track of Belcher, but I think you might find it refreshing.
Maindeck: 60
2x EtW
4x Belcher
1x ESG
2x Wild Cantor
3x Tinder Wall
3x SSG
3x Summoner's Pact
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
4x Burning Wish
4x Pyroblast
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED
2x Manamorphose
4x Rite of Flame
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song
1x Taiga
SIDEBOARD: 15
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x IGG
1x D. Returns
1x EtW
1x Reverent Silence
1x Hull Breach
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Pyroclasm
1x Meltdown
1x Flame Slash/Innocent Blood
1x Duress
It's a weird build, however, its been fairly smooth sailing. Lmk what you guys think.
--ABC
Does pact really work for you? That looks risky to me, as you don't have that many creatures to fetch out and if you don't go off that turn than you definitely die. Do you play in a really control heavy meta? Your not kidding as that is the weirdest belcher list i have seen yet. Do you usually pact for tinder wall or are you looking at cantor? Anyway, definitely interesting!
This looks like the online versions that ran pact because land grant isn't online. I feel like with this build you'll often times have too many dead cards floating around.
I had some sick hand in a simulated playtest yesterday which pretty much convinced me to go the BWish way. I really cant remember all the details, only this:
I Wished for Infernal Tutor after cracking LED which gave me 9 mana floating: BBB and RRRRRR (9 mana)
Cast Tutor for Belcher with B and R so I had BB and RRRRR (7 mana) left
Then I cast and pop the Belcher.
My SB basically looks like this now
1 ETW
1 Hull Breach
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Xantid Swarm
4 REB
1 I cant remember the other one.
I only have 3 Swarms btw bec I cant find the 4th one. I also dont know how IGG works with this deck. Can someone please explain?
The whole idea with Ill Gotten Gains is to create a short loop that ramps up your mana and storm count. IGG on stack sac LED, recur LED, B Wish, Seething Song, then seething B wish, sac LED in response, ETW for +4 more storm than before. Or swap in an Infernal Tutor and run that same combo except tutor for belcher. Most of these decks are about abusing LED, IGG is just another tool to use it, get cards back and use it again. Question for you, how is Goblin War Strike working for you in the side, I love that card in Belcher! It just makes the race with goblins so much less stressful and lets you worthwhile B Wish targets with the ETW plan. How has your testing been?
I experienced something like this, with 7 Mana float and a ETW at hand, I Wished (5 mana left) for GWS and I used RRRR to cast ETW which was @ my hand then I sued the 1 mana float to cast GWS
*used not suedI experienced something like this, with 7 Mana float and a ETW at hand, I Wished (5 mana left) for GWS and I used RRRR to cast ETW which was @ my hand then I sued the 1 mana float to cast GWS
Which cards would those be? I run 3 Infernal Tutor so that when the occasion that pithing needle names Belcher and I'm playing something that puts men on the field that hinder my 12-14 EtW tokens, I still have a win-con of 14-18 men, which, lets face it, is a much more comfortable number. The only thing I can think of other than those is the pacts you mentioned. However, they are extremely useful. The only other thing I may do with them is drop them down to two and put in the 4th SSG.
I hate drawing EtW. Hate it. It's almost never useful for me. It's my plan to drop one from the mainboard list, running 1x and then the 1 in the board, and putting a Tendrils in the mainboard so that I can igg for an actual win.
One last change I am definitely thinking of changing is -1 Pyroblast, +1 Manamorphose. My only problem is that I don't know where to put the Blast in my board because I like all of my SB choices. I think I may drop the Flame Slash slot for it as I already have Clasm for the problem critters.
It's not like I just threw this list together, it's been changing slightly over long periods of playtesting and I feel that instead of just running the traditional R/G build with tons of playsets, it should be more capable of handling some of it's more difficult matchups. I understand that sometimes a matchup is just bad (such as anything with 3sphere), but when you can improve your matchups, why wouldn't you?
This is just my first post here, not my first build. I also play SI, QSI, PSI,DDFT, DDANT Hybrids, FT, I have been playing FT since the before the days that it ran Street Wraiths and Death wishes, even before. I play hybrid lists of FT and TES, and also Belcher. I'm not being offended, but I would like a deeper explanation of what you think might be a better option for the issues you have with my list.
I'm glad I've sparked some discussion. Also, I don't play online, so its interesting to me that there are lists that reinforce some of the ideas I've had.
Also, on another note defector:
This doesn't work since BW is rfg when it resolves, making it impossible to loop without multiple BW in hand. This is the main reason I run as many Infernal Tutors as I do in my maindeck.The whole idea with Ill Gotten Gains is to create a short loop that ramps up your mana and storm count. IGG on stack sac LED, recur LED, B Wish, Seething Song, then seething B wish, sac LED in response, ETW for +4 more storm than before. Or swap in an Infernal Tutor and run that same combo except tutor for belcher. Most of these decks are about abusing LED, IGG is just another tool to use it, get cards back and use it again.
-ABC
I don't like rely the generation of B mana to just spells...why don't you run bayou??
I'm trying it out as I type actually. I didn't want to, but alas...
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