As I said, it depends on the matchup. It may also depend if you are on the play or the draw. But my strategy is to drop Vial over Lackey if I am on the play game 1 against an unknown deck. The reason is that there are more answers to Lackey than Vial (meaning more creature removal and blockers than artifact hate). Say that you are on the play for G1. You will resolve your 1-drop unless your opponent plays Force of Will. If you play Lackey over Vial, your opponent could remove it with Swords to Plowshares or some other cheap removal spell. They could also drop a blocker that you cannot get around. You then won't be able to swing with your Lackey on turn two. You can cast the Vial on turn two, but if you don't have a second one-drop, you are wasting unused mana. On the other hand, you could drop Vial over Lackey. If your opponent does not Force it, he probably doesn't have an early answer to Vial. You can bring in Lackey off Vial at the end of your opponents turn two, while still having mana to cast a two-drop or Port one of your opponent's lands (which could be key, such as Porting a white-mana land so your opponent cannto swords your lackey). Sticking a Vial on turn 1 is huge because you can vial all of your stuff in a turn earlier than if you had waited until turn two.Originally Posted by Nelis
There are cases in which playing Lackey first is the best option. You should do this against combo decks and decks that do not play much removal or answers for Lackey. As you note, playing around daze may be another reason to not play Vial turn one if you are on the draw. Having more than one Lackey in your opponent hand might also encourage you to play one of the on turn one.
When Nimble Mongoose was being played like crazy, I think most Goblin players had concluded that Vial is generally a better first-turn play than Lackey. With the disappearence of Mongoose, it might be worth reconsidering this question, but I still believe that Vial will usually be the best choice.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
Vial x Lackey.
This is a good subject.
Usually I tend to go for Vial against an unknown opponent.
The reason behind this is that my lackey usually gets removal, and than we have to wait to play Vial on turn 2, making it useful only by turn 4...
When you drop Vial first, your opponent can do whatever he wants turn 1, but usually turn 2 he plays a blocker or leave W open, to StP.
In situation #1, we can remove the blocker, either with Bolt, or getting a MWM into play by vial, and dealing 3 dmg to the blocker in your turn. That's usually enough.
In situation 2, we can Port or Waste his manasource during his 2nd mainphase, and get Lackey into play eot.
Of course, against combo (and I count all Survival builds here too), Lackey is usually the best card. (Unless you're up against something like TES, and opens Mountain, Port, Waste, Lackey, Vial, Driver, Matron). <----- Just realized that Lackey is better even in this case... =p
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Against an unknown deck on the play for game 1, what if you had the following hand: MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, LACKEY, LACKEY, VIAL, RINGLEADER, BOLT? You might opt for Lackey first in this example, because in order to win, you need to cheat the Ringleader in ASAP (I would say the same if the Ringleader was a Siege-Gang). Because of your lack of 2cc and 3cc goblins, Vial may not be too good to you in this situation. You can always drop Vial and a second Lackey on turn two, or one of them and a lightning bolt to a blocker.
On the other hand, if your starting hand was: MOUNTAIN, WASTELAND, LACKEY, VIAL, PILEDRIVER, WARCHIEF, RINGLEADER, you would probably want to drop the Vial first against an unknown deck. You don't have any removal in hand to help clear a path for the Lackey. You also have a nice curve for your goblins (with a one-drop, two-drop, three-drop, and four-drop), and this makes Vial very strong.
You really need to study the particular starting hand and make a determination of which is the better play. From my experience, however, Vial will be the best play most of the time.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
Lackey or Vial? Sounds like a Luxury Problem to me :)
Lackey or Vial?
Lackey. Almost always Lackey.
Why?
If they don't have an answer for it they just lose.
Yes, Vial is harder to hate. Yes, Vial T1 allows for open mana AND a Lackey T2. But Lackey wins.
Also, what would your opponent want to see? If they're on Combo they want to see as little easly pressure as possible, so they'd rather you play Vial. If they're on Survival they don't want to use their Heirarch to block a Lackey. They'd rather you Vial too. Really any matchup wants to see Vial over Lackey because Vial doesn't punish them for missing a 1 drop like Lackey does.
I already said that Lackey is a better first turn play than vial against Combo. We don't disagree there. Most of the time, however, vial is a better play against control or aggro. Resolving a turn one vial is huge against control decks because you can cheat in goblins every turn without having them hit by normal countermagic. If your turn one Lackey eats a Swords, you are really behind the 8-ball against them. Against aggro decks, such as Zoo, you generally want to get your vial down on turn one. A Lackey is just likely to eat a bolt spell.
Here's another advantage of landing a turn one vial: it forces your opponent to reconsider his plan. If you have a vial with one counter on it, the opponent will have to respect that. He will need to either leave mana open for a removal spell (instead of casting more creatures or sorcery spells) or leave two creatures as blockers (in case you vial in Lackey and have removal). The threat of vialiing in a turn two Lackey buys you time in many control/aggro matchups.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
By playing the turn 1 lackey you bait out their countermagic removal. This also allows for a daze proof turn 2 vial. Not to mention, the loss of 1 turn vs. control on the vial is not a huge issue. Your still super favored in the match up.
Yes, I already said this a few posts earlier. You might play Lackey first over vial if you are on the draw and playing around Daze. Of course, against control decks that don't run Daze (Thopters, Landstill, MUC), you might prefer to play vial first, even on the draw.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
I must say I asked some of my local players (better players than me) and until now they all agree on playing Lackey first against an unknown opponent. (I asked objectively and did not tell them my opinion when I asked.)
They all agree that the possible tempo gain from a connecting lackey outweighs the other possibilities. Goblins is still an aggro deck after all (even though it can take on the control role as well).
I think the question is if you believe a turn one Lackey vs Control is always the better option or not. Control and combo together is 2/3s of Magic's deck archetypes so I would still argue that turn one lackey is best play in an unknown environment.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
I agree with what Justin said earlier - it depends on your hand. Against an unknown opponent and my hand consists of Goblin Lackey and Siege-Gang Commander, I would definitely play Lackey over Vial. But if I have something like Lackey, Piledriver, and MWM, then I would play my Vial first.
There is not that much of a tempo gain, I'm going to be dropping a MWM through my Lackey.
I posted this question a few pages back but I think it got lost amongst all the survival discussions, so forgive the repost. Also, I have been following the thread and I know this question has been addressed to some degree, but I was hoping for an on point explanation and strategy analysis on this issue in particular.
As a preface, I ask this because of the apparent upswing in mono-red builds. The times I have tried mono-red, my biggest problem becomes facing decks with goyf and knight. In the black splash, you have WW main and Perish board to help handle these big guys. Mono-red is reduced to GI, which may not be enough when dealing with their removal and the need to chump alot, and pyro, which often times still cannot deal with those big green guys without a 3 for 1 or somesuch. Knight especially seems completely out of range at times.
How does one go about handling gofy and knight in mono-red?
I prefer the black splash, but it is tougher to beat decks that use those big creatures with mono-red. Goblins runs about 30 creatures, and a lot of New Horrizons and Rock builds only run about 12. Zoo runs more, but you still have the long-term creature advantage. You can win the long game by overwhelming them with too many goblins if you can live long enough. Mogg War Marshal helps you do this. He can provide up to three chump blockers for a single card. Fortunately, Goyf and Knight do not trample. Stingscourger can also buy you some time by bouncing one of their big guys and chumping another. It can also clear a path for Lackey or remove a blocker during your alpha strike. Relic of Progenitus can help in the side against some decks. Against New Horrizons, it turns their Knights into 2/2s, their Goyfs into 0/1s, and kills their Terravores dead.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
Yeah, I definatly like MWM in the matchup, but I've fallen out of favor with SS. It rarely seems to help get lackey through since they usually just path/bolt/cl your lackey instead of assuming that they can block it and that you won't have a removal. At other times, it stalls for a turn but rarely does it seem to accomplish much in the long run, at the cost of a card. I'm iffy about Relic because, while it will hurt those guys, it doesn't do much against the rest of the creatures and is pretty low-impact for a non goblin off the top. They still have their creatures, goyf still counts your GY, and they can just rebuild pretty fast with a knight on defense. While you do have the long term creature advantage, all your creatures are smaller, and they have lots of removal.
I've read some people post that "you don't need perish" to deal with those creatures, and I'm just not sure how the game is supposed to play out in your favor when you have to suicide your guys into their blockers every turn, or be forced to continually chump. Combined with their removal, I just find it hard to stablize the board in my favor. Its an attrition war that seems tough to beat for me in my experience.
With MWM and Siege-Gang Commander you can stall them a couple of turns. When you combine these with Lightning Bolt/Sharpshooter/Gempalm Incinerator you may even get the chance to kill a couple (Sharpshooter kills x/3 in combat with one blocker with power 1 and kills x/5 with two blockers with power 1, very nice!).
I noticed Aether Vial is an essential piece when playing against a deck with Goyf/KotR, because you have to build blockers ánd an attacking force. Otherwise you won't keep up.
Grt, Tom
@Talanos: Goblins don't NEED black do deal with Goyfs and Relicarys, but it sure help.
When playing against those big guys, you need to get defensive. Stall with MWM, chump with lousy Matrons and such. Bring enough goblins down to get their creatures into Gempalm range.
Do NOT cycle Gempalm when they have removal mana open, cause they can nullify your gempalm.
Other tactic is just to get 2 Piledrivers and a Warchief out. There you go. When you hit with 2 5/2 goblins, or more, and they'll probably block Piledriver, and trade him with their guys. This is great for you, since you have shitloads of Goblins, and they have only few big guys.
Oh, and if you play Bolt, you soon find out how many Goyfs and Relicarys he's capable of killing. The first one they play is usually in Bolt range.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
4x AEther Vial
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger
2x Warren Instigator
2x Warren Weirding
1x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
6x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Earwig Squad
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Extirpate
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pulverize
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher
So I played in my local Thursday night Legacy tourney yesterday with the above list. I thought I'd tell you all how it went.
Round 1 - Staxx
G1
I win the roll and open on a T1 Vial. He has T1 Trinisphere. I get some guys on the board while he plays Ghostly Prison. This card is a pain to fight through, but I'm paying the 2 to hit him with Lackey and put a Chieftain into play. He plays a Magus of the Tabernacle. I Warren Weirding it away and pay 4 a turn to attack with Chieftain and Warchief and take the win.
G2
I side out 4 Piledrivers for Tinkerer, Pulverize, Shusher and Pyrokinesis. G1 I saw Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere so I know I'll be needing artifact hate.
He has no T1 play so I get a T1 Vial again. It's a much more difficult match on the draw. He plays Chalice at 2 then a Magus of the Tabernacle. I Matron for a Weirding since I also have Shusher in hand to get around the Chalice. Unfortunately he plays two Baneslayer Angels and I can't go off. I chose not to play the Shusher because i don't want him knowing what I sided since I'm losing this game anyway.
G3
On the play again and life is good. I mull to 5 but have much more business than he does, and I get a T1 Lackey and Port him T2 while filling the board with Goblins.
This was a decent MU though I should have been more aggressive with my Shusher G2.
REMEMBER: IF YOUR OPPONENT HAS GHOSTLY PRISON OR PROPAGANDA IN PLAY YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAY 2 TO ATTACK A PLAINSWALKER. THEY ONLY TRIGGER WHEN YOU ATTACK A PLAYER.
2-1
1-0
Round 2 - GBW Survival
G1
I'm on the draw. T2 he has a Survival in play and a Vine in the yard. He starts eating my face T3 and I'm dead T4. All I manage to do this game is Gempalm his Heirarche, but its too late. I lose.
G2
I side in 2 Needle, 2 Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt, Perish, Pyrokinesis, Tinkerer. I side out my Aether Vials since I don't want to dilute the deck too much.
I start out with a Needle on Survival. He plays a Bird. He eventually hard casts a Vine. I Perish then Extirpate his Vines. I get a good look through his deck and see the Ooze combo in there, but not much else now that Vine is gone. He hard casts a Wispmare and then plays and equips a Jitte on it. That pretty much clears my board but I'm able to Needle the Jitte too. Once that's done the game is mine. He actually hard casts the Devourer at one point, then sees it die immediately when the first card he reveals is Triskelion. I win.
G3
He starts out with a Heirarch on the play. I play Needle on Survival. He casts Survival and passes. I play Tinkerer. He makes a land drop and passes. I play a Sharpshooter. Things are looking good for me. T4 he Natural Orders the hierarch for Progenitus, then plays a Shield Sphere and Rootwalla. I Tinkerer the Shield Sphere, Sharpshoot the Rootwalla, then need to topdeck a Wierding or Matron before Progenitus kills me. It doesn't happen, and I die.
I'm actually not too disappointed since G1 he was on the play, which puts us at a great disadvantage. G3 I was absolutely in the game, and was capable of winning had the cards fallen in my favor. They didn't this time, but that's Magic. I was in the game all the way and had outs for his game plan, so I don't feel too disappointed in the loss.
1-2
1-1
Round 3 - Team America
G1
I win! Nothing of interest to report.
G2
I side in Pyroblast, Pyrokinesis, Shusher, and Perish for Gempalms (most of his guys are too big to burn out unless I'm already in a dominant board position).
He keeps a 1 lander while I mull to 5. His 1 land is a Bayou, which doesn't help him cast the Brainstorm in hand. After I Wasteland it he dies without a permanent in play.
2-0
2-1
Round 4 - UG Tempo
This is a must win if I'm gonna make top 8
G1
He gets 2 Vials in play at 1 and 2, but has nothing to back them up. So goblins run over him.
G2
I side in Tinkerer, Pyroblast, Pyrokinesis, perish, and Shusher. I sided out Instigators and Gempalms.
Long story short he gets 3 Standstills off on me, replays Spellstutter Sprite after Ninjitsuing it back to his hand to draw more cards, and then gets an active Jitte on the board. I can't come back from that.
G3
I side out my Vials for 2 Needles (to turn off his Vials) and I side my Instigators back in.
This game was very unlucky for me. My first 7 were great, but my no land. My next 6 were 5 lands and a Siege Gang Commander. Down to 5 and I had a Perish, a Swamp, and red cards. I was really looking for a 1 drop still, so I mulled to 4. If I can get a T1 Lackey this game should be over. I mull to 4 and see that same singleton Swamp and same singleton Perish and 3cc red cards. Fuck. Keep
I play swamp. Go. I draw land, land while he plays some a Goyf and a Jitte. I cast Perish with no mana open because I know that if I don't this game is over for me. I can't have a Goyf with an active Jitte beating me down. He dazes the Perish. Game.
I think I tried to play this MU too defensively. Shusher was a bad side card, Tinkerer was too slow and I should have kept my Vials in for game 3 to give me as many 1 drops as possible. Siding in the Needles was too tricky. I was trying to be sneaky and my opening hands paid the price. So it goes. I really needed to be super aggro this MU and it just didn't happen.
1-2
2-2
I miss top 8 in a 17 man tourney. The Team America player from round 3 was going to drop at 1-1-1 after our match when I told him he should stick around since with a win he could still make top 8. Well, there he was in the top 8. Rough night.
Top 8
GU Tempo (R4)
UG Survival
GBW Survival (R2)
GW Survival
Team America (R3)
Aggro Loam
The Rock
43 Lands
What I learned-
Tinkerer is slow slow slow. Tinkerer and Pulverize are going to become Shattering Sprees. Spree is faster than Tinkerer and more versatile than Pulverize. But it just doesn't have that same WOW factor as pulverize. OK, so I'm not sure yet about Pulverize's future in my SB, but Tinkerer has got to go. Sorry buddy. Wait, I've made up my mine about Pulverize- it's out, Spree's in. I was worried about Spree being vulnerable to Chalice, but then I remembered its Replicate copies will still trigger even if the original is countered. Seems good.
Shusher is awesome and lousy. He's super slow, and he slows down the aggressiveness of the deck, but there are tons of Chalices running around that he could be great against. I think he stays. He's probably a bad choice against blue counterspells, and is more appropriate against chalice.
Needle is kick ass.
I need to side fewer cards in certain MUs. The loss to UG Tempo was avoidable.
Pyroblast is good, but will have to become a Pyrokinesis to deal with T1 birds and hierarchs and the like.
I still like the RB build since Extirpate and Weirding make me a happy happy man. I'm still looking forward to Survival being banned. I continue to have a love/hate relationship with Gempalm, but I'll keep coming back to him.
REVISED SIDEBOARD
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Earwig Squad
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Extirpate
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher
2X Shattering Spree
@ Dealing with KOTRs and Goyfs with monoR goblins
I never really had a problem with that matchup as their removal suite is typically STPs and Engineered Explosives. Explosives rarely take out that many guys due to the varied casting costs of all our goblins. We have so many "must-kill" goblins (lackey, piledriver, warchief), that STP can't handle all of them. Usually, I just chump for a while, build an army, kill/bounce one of their guys, then swing. Typically if I have seveal goblins on the table, the opponent isn't going to be attacking.
Agreed. Goblin accels in the late game and we typically (in today's metagame) want to push the game to a battle of attrition. 1 for is ALWAYS in our favor. Therefore,Stingscourger is strong because trading their removal (sometimes netting us a land) for our Lackey isn't exactly a bad trade. I guess we lose our Lackey plus our stinger, but that's ok. Card disadvatange isn't always a big problem for Goblin and that we can recover from it pretty easily.
Please note that I didn't say it was a good trade or that it was a good play. I'm just saying it's not a big deal to get your lackey plows because (let's face it) we kind of expect it now-a-days.
Like a lot of people have said, the mono-red version of Goblins do fine against big green creatures. To be honest, goyf/KOTR typically grow slower against Goblins than any other deck since all we play are basic lands (which cannot be wasted), creatures and a very small amount of artifacts (so goyf doesn't get exactly huge). If they want their green creatures to be huge, they have to build it themselves and that takes time. Like I said, Goblins love to push the game to late.
Opening with Vial vs. Lackey versus an unknown deck.
First and foremost this decision relies on your hand.
A hand like: Vial, Lackey, MWM, Piledriver, Mountain, Port, Wasteland, lends itself much better to a first turn Vial. Whereas a hand with Vial, Lackey, Siege Gang, Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourger/Warren Weirding, and 3 lands you will obviously lead with Lackey.
Then it depends on whether I am on the play or not. If I am starting leading with Lackey is a lot more appealing since my opponent can't just drop a Goyf and block Lackey all day.
It also depends on how my opponents comes across. I like to believe I can make a decent estamation based on what my opponent looks like in which of the three categories: Storm, CB/Top or other deck he falls into. A player with messy shuffle habits and with a creased piece of paper that he pulls out of his pocket will most likely not be a control player. Against this player I probably want my Vial first as I'm gearing up for the long game. I will put a player that leaves a silent, pseudo autistic appearance on a storm combo pilot, against this player I definately want my Lackey first. This method is nowhere near waterproof obviously, but if you do notice you are good at the guessing game then by all means use it to your advantage I would say.
Team R&D
I guess to sum up, it is safe to say that BOTH Vial and Lackey are reasonable opening plays. At a higher level, playing either has its advantages and disadvantages, but the player has to be the judge of that and decide which is the best play.
As a more GENERAL rule (for beginners), it seems to be safe to say that Lackey is the play to go for first since Vial is the safer card to have and Lackey (aggressively) is the stronger card to have its effects resovle. This general rule is also how I began playing Goblins and is good for people who are less experienced with the deck.
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