Ok so I've taken the various input and updated my list:
MAIN DECK
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Creatures [23]
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
Spells [16]
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Lands [21]
SIDEBOARD
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
I actually moved to a new city recently, and today the local shop was running a legacy tournament, so I went to check out the location and the metagame.
Watching people play I noticed 2 Storm decks, 2-3 Countertop, 2-3 Infect, 1 (small?) Zoo, 1 Elves, 1 Junk, 1 Team America, and some other decks I don't remember. I talked to the shop owner and he said 4-5 of the more serious players weren't there today (probably sleeping off hangovers), so the normal metagame is probably a bit different from what I saw today. Based on what I did see however, I think I like the current configuration. The present set-up might be a little soft to the Countertop decks, but I think for most of the other decks I'd rather just try to outrace them.
What do you guys think of my updates? I realize that what I saw today probably isn't too indicative of what the new metagame will look like (infect...), but I do like my list given what I would expect to play against.
Well i think i wrote twice that after survival was banned... So of course you havent seen any top16 with countertop, survival was just better, and people stop playing with countertop, wich is what i'm pointing out, survival banned means Countertop will be tier 1 again...Countertop is not finishing top 8 or even top 16 in any recent events and even if it does pick up in popularity with the banning of survival, that is just speculation and hypothetical right now. Sounds like TES is probably not the deck for you based on that record you posted.
ANT is superior to TES, in terms of manabase, TES is way to vulnerable to wasteland and requires a extra mana to combo since it supports 4 colors, so it has a worse matchup against merfolks, wich ANT doesnt have...
Only one of those top8s is relevant to the discussion, the one from the GP Columbus, all others were with survival meta or Reanimate/Ad nauseam meta (legal MT)...TES is not worse than ANT and since the banning of Mystical Tutor TES has been a far superior and more consistent deck. At GP Columbus when there was a ton of countertop in the meta, Bryant Cook playing TES dominated that match up consistently. Moreover, two ANT decks topped 8 at the last Star City Games Legacy Open in Richmond. At the Dutch Eternal Championships Eindhoven which saw 207 legacy players the top 2 decks were TES and ANT. At the last two GP’s Columbus saw a TES top 8 and Madrid saw two ANT top 4. This combo deck continues to get better and is growing with popularity and keeps on getting better with time. Now that survival is banned, I suspect even more players will start playing it.
So bryan cook top8, if you read his report you'll find out that he only had 3 bad matchups, 2 of those were the first 2 rounds...He started with a bye so...i think you know what i mean...After round 3, he played against UW thopther wich is bad matchup and he lost...after that he had several good matchups and a couple even matchups... i would say that for only playing agaisnt 2 countertop decks was nice for a gp were you say there was a ton of countertop...
I Disagree with you, when tou point that TES popularity will grow and more people will play it...I believe that Countertop return to scene will clearly decrease the amount of storm decks, merfolks still beats TES and has good matchup vs countertop so it will increase popularity and again decrease the amount of storm decks...
That's the reason why you never saw fast zoo top8 in survival time...Big Zoo top8 in several tournments in europe and fast zoo didnt during survival era...I categorically disagree with you that big zoo is a better metagame call at present time. Traditional Zoo is substantially faster, more consistent and actually has a fighting chance at beating combo. Up until the banning which just took effect today, Big Zoo really could not be survival and fast Zoo could actually out race them and beat them with speed and consistency.
Fast Zoo has worse match ups vs control then Big Zoo, Landstill, 4C Countertop, just kill fast zoo, firespout + counters + explosives + jace + counterbalance + pernicious deed + edicts effects...are just too good for fast zoo, Big zoo normaly fights countertop due to have high CMC spells that are hard do counter trough balance and has bigger creatures that dont die to firespout, has for landstill planeswalkers are just insane against them, fast zoo can only rely on burn to win...Traditional fast Zoo has an equal if not better match up against Merfolk, has a better match against the vast majority of control and has a much better matchup against combo and was palpably batter against survival. Traditional fast Zoo will also be better then Big Zoo against the new Vengevine u/g/b madness that is replacing survival.
UGB madness is slower than Survival Madness so it will be a better match up to big zoo, since you'll have time to play high CMC spells, and have more sword effects than fast zoo...
I Believe the meta will become ZOO/MERFOLKS/COUNTERTOP, and i'm expecting it for the reasons i posted earlier i believe Big Zoo is a better call than Fast Zoo...And of course Big Zoo beats fast zoo...
Acima de nós só DEUS...
First off, your psychic prediction of the future metagame is pure subjective speculation and has no evidentiary foundation to support same. Moreover, in the future legacy format (whatever that will be) the metagame will definitely consist of more than the three decks you anticipate will be the most played. People stopped playing CB for more reasons than just survival. The fact that ANT is superior to TES in terms of mana base is inconsequential. TES is now a better, more consistent and an overall more popular deck. All of those recent top 8 finishes are entirely relevant because they deal with the present (non-survival) metagame not what may or may not happen in the future.
What are you talking about? A traditional fast zoo deck just topped 8 (actually a top 4 finish) at a legacy trial event this month while survival was still legal. Big Zoo was manifestly too slow against survival and traditional fast zoo could actually outrace them and match their speed which big zoo consistently fails to do. Plus if an opponent kills Noble which is so easy for so many decks to do, and big zoo is even painfully slower. If you want to go back in time and look at when CB was popular then look no further then the last Grand Prix’s; Madrid and Columbus. The three (3) zoo decks that topped 8 at Madrid and the one (1) that went undefeated on day one were all fast traditional zoo. The two (2) zoo decks that did the best at Columbus played by Tom Ross and Alix Hatfield were both fast traditional zoo. This format is about speed and consistency regardless of how the metagame will shape out to be. Ask any of the top zoo players with proven success and they will tell you which version that would opt to play at a competitive large scale event.Originally Posted by Catitas
You could not be more wrong! In fact, in this case you’re dead wrong. The new U/G/B Madness is actually faster than Survival/Madness was; it is just not as consistent. However, the starts can be much faster and more explosive. I have done an extensive amount of play testing with U/B/G Madness thus far and by far, the faster more consistent version of zoo is much more difficult to play against then big zoo which is consistently at least one to two turns too slow.
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
Wich are?...People stopped playing CB for more reasons than just survival
Well of course it is inconsequential... Having merfolks and tempo decks has bad matchups is clearly inconsequential... where TES is bad against merfolks ANT is good... You keep saying TES is now better bla bla...The fact that ANT is superior to TES in terms of mana base is inconsequential. TES is now a better, more consistent and an overall more popular deck
Why is it better and more consistent now? the only card unbanned was Time Spiral wich is a worse Diminishing Returns, and with countertop back it seems a lot worse than in survival time...i already said that but you keep ignoring my arguments and tend to not justify your opinion with arguments and just say is better now bla bla...
Did you check SCGs and big tournments in europe and japan? that top was in worlds and there was also a big zoo... but i dont recall any other top8 with fast zoo after survival become dominating...A traditional fast zoo deck just topped 8 (actually a top 4 finish) at a legacy trial event this month while survival was still legal
Check how many you'll find then compare the numbers...
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...=546&format=LE
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...=498&format=LE
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...=711&format=LE
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...=191&format=LE
Those are few tournments but keep checking the tournments and you'll see...
Again that metagame had MT wich made pretty much every side use mutiple cards for combo and less cards for zoo, because ANT was dominating... At Columbus there were no zoo in top 8 cause people pack more cards for zoo and less for combo in their sides...If you want to go back in time and look at when CB was popular then look no further then the last Grand Prix’s; Madrid and Columbus. The three (3) zoo decks that topped 8 at Madrid and the one (1) that went undefeated on day one were all fast traditional zoo.
Big Zoo was originally played in japan at legacy Championship 2010 (wich was in july 3rd... after GP Madrid and a month before GP Columbus) and then start spreading to europe...it wasnt a meta call its just a deck that wins vs zoo, merfolks, and has a decent matchup to Countertop, and right now i believe its a good call for post survival...
If i recall well that deck depends on mana creatures to play intuition on turn 2 or double entomb and then double creature for 2 veggies...so turn 3 you'll have 2 veggies...without mana dudes this will happen in turn 4 is it faster than UG madness...? you can say moeba discard double vegie then 2 rootwalla, well that use to happen in UG madness so i don t see the speed improvement you talk about...You could not be more wrong! In fact, in this case you’re dead wrong. The new U/G/B Madness is actually faster than Survival/Madness was; it is just not as consistent. However, the starts can be much faster and more explosive.
Acima de nós só DEUS...
TES is better than ANT now because in addition to Mystic Tutor’s banning at recent SCG and GP events it has posted better win percentages; that is why. Also, on paper it’s only unfavourable match as per statistics was survival and now that deck is gone. These are not erroneous opinion just stone cold facts. If you want to Know why TES is a much more reliable and consistent deck than ANT since Mystical’s banning read what Cook had to say on the subject in that forum. He comprehensively set out why TES is a better deck and how it can beat counterbalance. I am not going to debate this further for a variety of reasons with the principle of those reasons being this is a Zoo forum and it is not fair to the other players that come here to discuss Zoo. BTW, ANT is not good against merfolk either it is still a bad match up for them, nevertheless.
Why don’t you look at the last and most recent top 4 Zoo deck list posted on Magic-Ville which was also when survival was still legal and had culminated in its success. You will note it is fast traditional zoo!
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...op8?ref=208221
Traditional fast Zoo has an equally good if not better match up against merfolk, also has a decent match up against the decreasingly popular Countertop decks and has a way better match up against combo. Granted big zoo is better in the mirror but there are sideboard remedy’s for that. I have also asked Matt Elias and Tom Ross (and I will try and ask Alix Hatfield) arguably the best and the most celebrated and decorated legacy zoo players and they both unanimously agree that now, in the present day metagame that traditional fast zoo is better than big zoo. I agree that overall and pound for pound that a fast traditional zoo build will be superior to that of big zoo.
The attractiveness of Vengevines was and still is its explosiveness, perhaps even more so now. Paying one mana for a Putrid Imp to get a Basking Rootwalla and a number of Vengevines into play on turn 1 is nothing but pure explosiveness. I concede the new build lacks consistency that the survival build had, however; it is definitely not slower which is why big zoo is and will be too slow and traditional fast zoo has a better chance at beating it more often.
The moves you can pull are pretty sick: Turn 1 Land with Careful Study, discard Ghast and Vengvine(s): Turn 2 play Imp, discard Vengevine(s), land, bring back ghast, BOP, bring back Vengevine(s). You can play 5 creatures and attack with 2 plants and draw two cards all by turn 2; or Turn 1 Putrid Imp, discard 2 Vengevines, discard Basking Rootwalla, and swing for 8. Then Turn 2, pump Basking Rootwalla to a 3/3 and swing for 12 for a turn 2 goldfish.
The explosiveness is insane. Survival was slow, costing 1G+ GGGGGG in total. In the new U/B/G Madness explosive turn 1 and turn 2 openers seem to happen more often. I'm getting more explosive turn 1 and turn 2 opening hands with single and double Vengevines with the addition of black. You also can open with a single Vengevine on turn 1-2, and cast an Intuition to lay down more Vengevines/Wonder by turns 3-4. This is ostensibly faster although not as consistent as survival was. In any event, just like the TES issue, this is not the appropriate forum to discuss U/B/G Madness.
Last edited by Demonic_Attorney; 01-02-2011 at 03:32 AM.
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
Zoo for the new metagame.
/ Lands
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [A] Plateau
2 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [MR] Plains (4)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [A] Savannah
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PT] Forest (1)
1 [CHK] Mountain (3)
// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
1 [WWK] Loam Lion
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
// Spells
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
I am getting very close to playing mainboard Blood Moon...
Demonic Attorney, thank you for posting the majority of the things I'm far too lazy to type.
What is the reason for the lack of Sylvan Library?
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Well looks like my meta prediction sounds correct... as well as the deck choices... First big tournment without survival, look at the meta...
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5450
111 players no storm in top8, 2 countertop decks, 1 big zoo, 1 merfolk, 1 UW Standstill...
Acima de nós só DEUS...
Good thing those results aren't from a free online league full of godawful scrubs or anything.
Wait...
2011 Rookie of the year Andrea Giarola and his brother versus 6 scrubs(including me).
nice tournament brah.
If you're packing 4x wastelands then its time to switch back from PtE to Stp.
Just got back from a 500eur Legacy tournament with 46 (?) players. Made top 4 to a split, and actually played sudden death in my semifinal match :D Very interesting.
the top 8 was very diverse. 1 dredge, me with zoo, goblins, CT, GUB and GUR thresh, Eva Rock, TES
Free online leagues this early don't establish anything. In fact, I am more incline to lend more weight to a 50 player in person competitive 24K+ rel event then that.
The first true big tourney will be a SCG open, a Grand Prix or a Gen Con.
I also note that the first Grand Prix will not be until the end of May in Providence Road Island and then in December in the Netherlands which I will be attending. We will have to wait to see what happens at the first SCG Legacy open event of 2011. However, even then, I am very hesitant about SCG Kansas City which is taking place on January 9, 2011 as it still might be too early to establish a new post survival metagame and a lot of players will be exploring the new waters and adjusting from the results of that event. I think the metagame will not be established until late Feb to mid March, 2011 with a trial and error process.
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
Isn't it obvious what decks are still good? It's the same format -1 card, and Vengevine is fairly recent. Countertop, Thresh, Merfolk, Zoo, Ooze Combo/Storm/Belcher becomes the basic metagame. Big Zoo is what I want to be playing against most of that picture. I honestly hope that Storm runs into the blue, and I ninja dodge combo somehow, but you can adjust your SB accordingly. Needle is pretty bad now.
my SB is
4 Crypt
2 Silence
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
Noble Hierarch is the card you want to be playing today, and it largely outclasses Loam Lion and Kird Ape. People say that Big Zoo is slower, but to what degree slower? It's not slower at dropping Knight of the Reliquary or Elspeth, because +1 mana is alot better than a 2/3 swinging, and Exalted matters. If you think fast Zoo is stronger in your metagame, then you should go that way. However, if you're expecting to play against Counterbalance and the mirror, I wouldn't suggest it over Big Zoo. I've beaten combo a fair bit with it too, Wasteland helps.
TES isn't the only tangible and playable combo deck in the format and relying on other decks to beat a key match up in a large scale event is a palpable mistake.
I disagree that Noble Hierarch is a card you want to be playing today, especially in a fast zoo build as it does not do the required and necessary early damage that zoo needs and obviously does not fit into the traditional fast zoo build that I am playing in any event. It may or may not be better then ape and lion and even if it is, in my view, it is not better then lynx (with 11-12 fetch land).
To a substantial degree slower. In legacy, one turn too slow can be fatal and killing an opponent on turn four as oppose to turn five can be all the difference. That is where doing 4-5 damage on turn two is key which fast zoo excels at and slow zoo simply cannot.
big zoo can be very slow at dropping Elspeth when Noble is not their to accelerate and that will be the case more often then not as almost every deck in the format has ways to kill Noble early. What you gain in terms of speed with Noble (if it lives long enough) you lose in aggression, tempo and invaluable early beats. That is what zoo is suppose to do; apply early THREATS that do EARLY game damage; not merely give you extra mana.
Wasteland is a weak answer to beating combo. Raw speed, consistency, MBT, Pillar, Teeg and Canonist are the answers to beating combo with zoo and I see that you play none of those tenacious and reliable answers.
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
Well pretty much no one but us know that here...
I run a very diferent side but, i remember playing with mages side, and i only had a couple diferences -1 crypt -2 silence + 3 blue blasts...
my side right now...
2 Krosan Grip
2 Enlightened Tutor (Team Zasca played with them to a top finish and loved it since)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog (Knight of the Reliquary working has a tutor, and i always like to diverse hate cards)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blood Moon (Try out agaisnt Standstill decks, hilarious, i remember games when i played choke they sometimes manage to return to game, but after blood moon is game...no chance of coming back, they normaly run only a swamp in UGB version, the white version is a little bit though, they pack more basics, but again is just a matter of perfect timming to cast it...)
1 Rule of Law (i used to run gaddock teeg and 3 traps but counterbalance is way to strong to believe combo will stand, so i tested and ended up liking it a lot, since you find it wherever you want with the tutors)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Pithing Needle (Jace...Vial...Top...Deed...Explosives, it's still awesome)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Yup, almost ever... Generaly that mana sometimes looks like a time walk, and if you 're on draw it's really awesome...
Last edited by Catitas; 01-04-2011 at 04:24 PM.
Acima de nós só DEUS...
Big Zoo still plays the same creature base. Nacatl is the fastest opener possible, and both decks can do it. I have not found Big Zoo to be "slower" at all, and speed is NOT everything anymore. Counterbalance punishes you for playing Loam Lion and more burn spells, and Combo decks roll over fast Zoo all the same. Games in Legacy can go long, and the best way to control your topdecks (past playing Sylvan Library) is to not play cards that aren't good late-game. Zoo is also fairly mana hungry. Loam Lion won't save you from mana screw, and that 2/3 body just isn't as damaging as it used to be. The combination of +1 mana and Stacked exalted triggers has been better in my testing, but to each his own.
I don't plan on dodging the combo decks, because Ooze/Storm/Belcher are great decks that win. I have terrible luck, and that's why I play the SB I do. Pillar/Teeg/Canonist have all been in my board, but I HATE the 2cc. MBT and Silence are where it's at, but I prefer Silence. Meddling Mage, while not fantastic against Storm combo, is a huge boon from the sideboard. It has numerous applications in the current format, stopping cards we would otherwise have no say about. I expect to see alot of decks like that in the coming months.
@ Catitas: I <3 your Enlightened Tutor SB, I'm gonna give it a try. It seems really strong, and not playing Tropical Island will feel nice :D
o hai
But Nacatl...consistency...
lulz
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