Back when I played Landstill and there were Legacy events near me, I could not beat burn either. What I had to do was play Counterbalance with one Enlightened Tutor main and a C.O.P.:Red out of the board along with a mix of Blue Elemental Blast and Hydroblast. I'm not even exaggerating. The matchup is surprisingly terrible. That's all in addition to the 4 Force of Wills, 3 Counterspell, and 3 Spell Snare mainboard. However, when you board like this you're a definite favorite. Other than the C.O.P.:Red, the other cards aren't really dedicated for burn but universally good but also happen to crush Burn in conjunction with one another.By the way, I had a 60ish people tournament today and ended up with a rather disappointing 2-4. I realized that I can't beat Burn, wich is pretty sad, and heavy discard is really though. I am considering 4 Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard, however playing Leylines is something I really hate (the entire ''Mull until you get one'' is ridicolous , even more ridicolous in a control deck like Landstill) and Spell pierces are not enough. What would you suggest?
I've tried this and it definitely wasn't good enough against an opponent with any sense. It's far too slow.I loathe burn with every fiber of my being. That smug look a burn player gets when they beat you, that THEY beat your 60$ dual lands with nothing but their own PWNZR skills and 10c lightning bolts is something I NEVER want to see. My recommendation is [card]Pulse of the Fields[/card]. It's nearly impossible for them to get through an active pulse of the field if you have a counterspell anywhere in the first four turns. Nidd's suggestion is also a good one.
Counterbalance smashes Burn.
I'm going to test Leylines. Only thing that I dislike about them is that I need to mull into one, unless you want to cast them on turn 4 wich is a very slow plan.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Okay...I'm not going to be the guy that randomly jumps into a discussion and ask a completely random question....But I've read the past few pages (not all due to there being close to 230......and not all are relevant.) but here is my question, I'm having a horrible time with zoo right now and game 1 usually always ends in a lose for me, I'm playing a 4 color control build of Landstill and a decklist will be provided in a second, has anybody else already encountered this issue and has found a solution?
Here's my current MB:
Instants:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Spell Snare
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Fact or Fiction (Just added these today after reading the forum, not sure of there worth yet.)
Sorcery:
2x Life from the Loam
2x Innocent Blood
Enchantments:
4x Standstill
3x Pernicious Deed
Planeswalker:
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (Also added today, haven't used in a real game yet.)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands:
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
Sideboard:
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Arboria
3x Extirpate
1x Innocent Blood
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Hydroblast
Thanks for looking at this and any critisism is welcome, I'm really tired of losing to zoo and other aggro :(
Well I don't really have too much experience with 4 color Landstill builds save for a tournament or two, so I'm far from an expert but from what I'm looking at in your list, you shouldn't really be having a Zoo problem. With 4 STP, 2 Innocent Blood, and Pernicious Deed, along with Spell Snare and Elspeth, Zoo should not be giving you headaches. I wouldn't focus too much on tweaking that list as I would how you're playing the deck. I obviously don't know you, so I wouldn't say you're playing badly or anything, but if you say you're losing to Zoo with all those great cards against them I'd think maybe you're not approaching the matchup properly. Also, it's important to keep good hands when you're playing against Zoo because they can be pretty unforgiving. Any hand with those slow FOF and no early stabilizers like STP, Innocent Bloods, Spell Snare, need to be pitched back for a new grip. I know it took me a while to learn how to play against Zoo, and which cards were important. Maybe you just need to test the hell out of it until your matchup improves. Hope that helps.Originally Posted by Barbwire
Actually that makes alot of sense, I am still learning what a good hand to keep is or in what order to approach the hand. It may be that I'm approaching the situation wrong, thanks :)
That list should beat Zoo. Like chii said, it's how you leverage your early game. An important thing about control is that you need to know the inside and outs of your deck e.g. the % chance you will draw card X or card Y. What is the potential of my hand to stabilize, answer threats before I draw card X or card Y. Which card is relevant for me in this matchup etc, which card do I need to protect to win me games etc.
Landstill's not a forgiving deck because it doesn't have cheat-wins e.g. Show and Tell/combo, neither does it have a fixed strategy. The game is seldom won with thinking "I'm going to hit him with Factories with counterspells in hand". It's always interactive and one mistake costs you.
Against Zoo, the advice I have to give you is: Think of your life total with a bare minimum of 10. If you fall to 10, you are going to be in a red zone, no matter what you think (unless you have Counterbalance or Pulse of the Fields etc). The reason why burn is a bad matchup for Landstill is without Counterbalance, the burn player only needs to invest in "R"-costing spells to whittle your life down fast while you need at least "UU" or pitching 2 cards to deal with a Lightning Bolt that might cost you the game. If your meta is burn heavy, run Countertop, or run lifegaining cards e.g. Pulse beats them if you survive to that point.
Back on topic, you have to view Zoo the same way as you view burn. It is not as bad a matchup as burn because you don't have dead cards (e.g. StP). However, in this matchup, you should not take 3/3, 2/3 lightly and let your life fall for granted. At the same time, you should not put yourself in a position where you use all your counters on creatures and end up dying to their burn. The balance is to try to snag 2 for 1s with sweepers/EE/Deeds without taking too much damage. you have to look at the board position, calculate ahead of time how much you are taking, always count how many cards they have in their hand i.e. do they have more burn/creatures? If they are not casting more dudes after you have plowed dudes, chances are they have burn. Debate if you want to counter that lightning bolt because the Fireblast/Price of Progress are the real threats.
As a safety guide, your life total can be at 2 against any aggro deck except Goblins/Merfolks/Zoo since Gobs can suddenly swing in with hasty piledrivers and Merfolks can win with a Lord of Atlantis and Zoo will just burn you to death. All matchups are different so see fit how to play them. Play and play and play. I've played this deck for 3 years now, still making mistakes, but that's how you learn. Also, just knowing your deck won't make you successful. You have to know all the decks out there, to truly get a grip of Landstill, so once in awhile, pilot another deck, learn those deck's tricks and inside-out.
Good luck!
Posting my list that I am most likely to take this weekend if I convince myself not to play Dreadstalker (playtesting hasn't been too optimal for Dreadstalker. Jace kills that deck :/)
Lands: 23
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Celestial Colonnade
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
Removal: 9
2 EE
4 StP
3 Lightning Helix
Counters: 11
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
Draw: 12
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
Advantage: 6
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Jace the Mindsculptor
Sideboard: 15
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Mindbreak Trap (autolose to boseiju.scapeshift otherwise)
2 Orim's Chant
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
2 Peacekeeper
2 Negate
Blue Count: 23
Mana curve (countertop flips):
0cmc: 25
1cmc: 11
2cmc: 15
3cmc: 3
4cmc: 3
5cmc: 4
Common Postboard Analysis: (listing only relevant cards)
Gobs: -3 Counterbalance, -1 Top, -2 Cunning Wish, +1 Path, +3 Firespout, +2 Orim's Chant, +2 Peacekeeper
Removal:
2 EE
4 StP
1 Path
3 Helix
3 Firespout
1 ETutor/Chant -> Scepter
Counters:
4 Force
4 Counterspell
Merfolks: -1 Crucible, -3 Counterbalance, -3 Top, -2 Cunning Wish, +1 Path, +2 Peacekeeper, +3 Firespout, +2 Chant, +1Etutor
(yes with this setup, I am confident with 3 Standstills against Merfolks)
Removal:
2 EE
4 StP
1 Path
3 Helix
3 Firespout
2 Peacekeeper
1 ETutor/Chant -> Scepter
Counters:
4 Force
4 Counterspell
Zoo: -2 Cunning Wish, -1 Crucible, -1 Force, +3 Relic, +1 Path
Removal:
2 EE
4 StP
1 Path
3 Helix
1 ETutor/Chant -> Scepter
3 Relic (slowing down damage)
Counters:
4 Force
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
Enchantress/combo/control/stax: -4 StP, +2 Negate, +2 Chant, +1 Etutor
updating the rest after lunch
Removal:
2 EE
3 Helix (can be boarded out for relic if needed)
Counters:
4 Force
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Negate
2 Chant
1 ETutor
I'm not too sold on Peacekeeper post Vengevine, but she is so brutal against Merfolks and Emrakul/Progenitals that I'm probably keeping her inside. She's quite decent against GWx decks, since you can protect her with counterbalance or counters against their swords and removals.
Last edited by GGoober; 01-11-2011 at 04:15 PM.
aren't you a bit too light on 3cc? You already know how this cc is full of dangerous spells in legacy: Vindicate, Maestrom pulse, KotR just to name a few. 3rd wish maybe?
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Ki, yes that is the only iffyness that I've been bugged for hours. 3 cmc is a tad too little to make CB worthwhile MD. I thought about running 3 Top and CB in the sideboard and playing more Landstill with Tops MD and bring in CB when needed, but when weighing out, CB improves more matchup and is less dead MB than SB.
3 years back, this would have been a golden ratio of cmc for Countertop flips: 11:15:3 but in today's meta, 3cmc is becoming ever more and more important. However, I feel that Landstill is capable of fighting things at the 3cmc cost by way of the deck i.e. if you survived to turn 3, a lot of your spells become relevant e.g. Counterspell.
Regardless, the dangerous 3cmc that are popularly played in the meta can be summarized below:
Knight of the Reliquary (StP/Path)
Vindicate (Not too commonly played, Counterspell v.s. Vindicate is a fair statement)
Vendilion Clique (this is quite gg in response to my standstill lol)
Show and Tell (this is problematic)
Trinisphere (this is problematic, not too commonly played)
Enchantress.dec (this is problematic, a bad matchup)
Crucible of Worlds (problematic but not popularly played)
Merfolk Lords (SB firespout, Peacekeeper, Helix, StP etc)
Doomsday (not popularly played)
Krosan Grip (against my list, but this is postboard and my postboard 3cmc spells are increased)
My only concern is Show and Tell and Enchantress.dec. Any 3cmc creatures are dealt with removal. one way I can deal with the problem in my list is run 3 EE to catch the 3cmc that slip past. I am primarily playing CBTop for 0-2cmc spells, I am not too worried about 3cmc spells. The list of spells I have to worry from 0-2cmc are much larger and more relevant than the list mentioned above, not to mention this is my honest opinion of Legacy (everything is usually decided by turn 2, in terms of tempo development etc. I feel that by turn 2, the rough state of the game is decided, whether you have played something relevant that is going through or generating advantage, or if the control deck has secured some board position on turn 2. It's true you can recover past turn 2, but I feel majority of matches depend heavily on turn 2-3. In this manner, Counterbalance sucks because it sets up a lock past turn 3 in most situations, but counterbalance decks don't necessarily suck because they have other elements to control the early game).
Anyway, back to the list, is my analysis somewhat convincing? I do not need people to convince me it blows etc, but what I want to know is that after boarding, does my new postboard deck look capable enough to have more than a 50/50 matchup against the said deck? I'm personally convince the choice of SB and MD gives a good balance to skew postboard games to more than 50/50 for the matchups listed above.
On Helix: I know this is card talked about and not explored, but IMO I think it is quite relevant with the potential "old" meta of tribal/Zoo/Bant. Fire//Ice is another good option but personally I don't like it. I feel that not having a 1-1 spell against bulk of Zoo's creatures or Lorded' Merfolks is going to cost some games where they are needed. Helix can hit everything except for a Goyf/Knight/RWM (RWM is not a threat). It hits Gobs, Merfolks, Lorded Merfolksx1/, 2/3 Goyf, Kird Ape/Loam Lion, Nacatl, Lavamancer, Bob, Elves, 3/3 KotR. IMO 3 damage is very important over 2 damage on Fire. Chii will think otherwise but this is my opinion. fire//Ice wins on a scepter but so does Helix, putting you many turns ahead. You may ask why not Bolt at 1cmc, and the main reason is Helix does 2 things: stabilize and bolts. The RW casting cost isn't an argument against Helix because R is the off-color. In UW landstill, that W may as well be irrelevant, so the only issue becomes is a 2cmc burn better than a 1cmc bolt? IMO yes because Helix squeezes 2 effects in one card. But this is a testing phase. I feel that the ability to stabilize and remove threats, while being completely broken with a scepter is a card I want to test. At the very least, it's a 2cmc spell, not a 3cmc spell, which means that I can catch a lot of plays on turn 2 EOT, and not affecting my tempo as much as playing something more expensive.
I actually want to cut the wishes, but they give me the option to grab a Chant if I'm losing, and most importantly up the blue count to a comfortable 23 since I'm low on blue count by playing Helix.
No, you're wrong about Merfolk. Reactive plans just do not beat Merfolk, even if you think Peacekeeper is the bees knees. If you want to beat decks like Merfolk, you *must* have a proactive, faster game plan than the one they are presenting. Sitting back and hoping to remove all their threats is a losing plan.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
I see peacekeepers being ran in alot of sideboards..are they really that useful? seems to me they'll catch the first spot removal the opponent draws.
(My thought process is due to the incredible amount of zoo metagame in my area....local legacy tourny's end up being 60-75% zoo.)
Also, in response to Rico, I agree and disagree with your statement. The fact of the matter is the speed in which a good pilot, behind a merfolk or other aggro deck, puts a threat on the board is the same almost every game. That is the consistancy of the deck, as a control player it is not the task to keep the speed of the opposing player matched, just keep the speed in check and controlable. It's not a matter of removing all there threats, just the ones that matter, the ones that in late game the control deck will have a problem with after the control deck shoots for its win con.
Barbwire, you only SB in PKs against decks with no removal (Merfolk, Dredge, SnT, etc.). You don't SB them in against Zoo, Goblins, etc. because those decks all pack answers to the PK.
I like the list Metalwalker, but I feel it needs moar REB/Pyroblast. They're just too good not to play, strengthening the Merfolk, Mirror, CB, and Combo matchups. Also, Pierce over Negate maybe? I've found that the extra mana is not worth the hard counter against decks where speed is most important. Good luck at your tournament!
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
That's the entire point, all of them matter due to the way in which Landstill wants to win.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
Agreed, they all matter but only to a certain point.
In my case for instance, a T1 Nacatl is a pain, but the recursion of Factories provide me with mid to late game counter measures where as a 3/4 4/5 goyf needs immediate attention.
Did you ask me if that spell could resolve?????
-Team HRW-
High Roll Wins
Hey guys!
As a beginning Lanstill player I've been reading this thread for a while. As I read some questions popped up which I hope you can help me with.
1. On sites like Deckcheck.org there are Lanstill lists similar to the one below, but this thread seems to vary a lot with lists. This is quite confusing: why would you all go in different directions while the 'top8-lists' from deckcheck all look almost the same?
Furthermore, the primer doesn't have a matchup-analysis.
2. I wondered which decks UW(x) Landstill was good against?
3. What strategy should the Lanstill player pull of against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, AggroControl (as in New Horizons and Bant Control)
I'm sorry for my ignorance on the deck, but hope some of you can help me out.
Thanks in advance.
UWb Landstill by Michael Danis
Instants (19):
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
Sorcery's (2):
2x Wrath of God
Enchantments and Artifacts (11):
4x Standstill
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Humility
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Planeswalker (5):
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23):
2x Underground Sea
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Glacial Fortress
Sideboard:
1x Ajani Goldmane
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Extirpate
3x Meddling Mage
4x Peacekeeper
Maybe I'm not being clear.
I am saying that this approach is a losing strategy against Merfolk, which also does not run Nacatl or in most cases Goyf either. It seems you might be thinking of something else.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
Was interperting your point as an aggro front in general and just using Merfolk as an example..But it appears your specifically talking fish
Did you ask me if that spell could resolve?????
-Team HRW-
High Roll Wins
Rico, I 100% agree with this, maybe you are misinterpreing what I mean by Peacekeeper/Jace against Merfolks etc. Why do I 100% agree with you? Because that's how my games v.s. Merfolks went. Everytime I think I can fool around by dragging a turn, I end up being in a bad position. Merfolk is a deck where they are constantly putting out creatures (if they have a vial you're dead), and at every point, they can utilize standstill more than any deck to keep the pressure going.
I do not disagree with this statement at all, but in my experience, Scepterstill has one benefit that regular landstill lists don't. Merfolk just can't deal with Scepter if it sticks. If they run Echoing Truth, then too bad, but in most cases, ET gets countered and they lose to Scepter. Out of many games I played against Merfolks, I lost 50-60% of them because of the "reactive" gameplan you're talking about i.e. slowrolling and not wanting to win fast, and it is this very reason why Dreadstill has an edge against Merfolks since they can just go Stifle Nought counter enough disruption and win since Merfolks cannot deal with it. However, everytime Scepter imprints a removal, I have won about 80-90% of those games because I am netting 1 more card a turn with Scepter if they are playing a creature out a turn. Being Landstill has its disability in this respect, but the list I propose should be stronger than previous iterations I was running (UWb with EPlague which is too slow against Merfolks but awesome against Gobs. Not that UWb Scepterstill was a bad list, it was good in a Vengevine meta with Extirpates and is better against GWx decks but I think UWr is now argubly quite superior with the loss of Vengevines).
The recent matchups against Merfolks, I have been watching this incident on not letting my guard down, and apply pressure and try to win asap if possible (although that's quite oxymoronic for a Landstill deck to say 'win ASAP' lol), but the gameplay changes against Merfolks. Similarly, Gobs is a similar behavior. They don't run Counters and standstill, which somewhat helps, but if they chain Ringleaders or resolve one, chances are you are going to lose (Landstill has a much stronger gob matchup than Dreadstill though so the play decisions differ a little here e.g. Dreadstill can no longer go pro-active agaisnt gobs in most situations, and would have to be careful of having a plan B in case nought gets bounced/edicted)
@Mana Drain: Let me know what I can cut for 2 Jap FBB REBs. I know they're awesome, I should even have 1 in my sideboard since I'm running wish and could use a singleton-redundancy-SB, but so far I'm not sure which cards to cut to support REBs. Well, I could cut a Mindbreak Trap, but for my meta no way. Losing to Scapeshift is like losing to Primeval Titan in Legacy. I hate it.
I don't run Pierce because of 2x Chant in the SB. These effectively act as a Pierce or stronger (Chant in response to ritual or Burning Wish is almost equivalent to countering all spells on the stack). The only problem is it doesn't stop Duress which Pierce does. I run 2x Negate to have a total of 6 hard counters against the non-aggro decks. 6 hard counters also increases the chance on getting imprinted on Scepter, which then says they lose. While they are digging to find removal against Scepter, Countertop comes online, or I have enough counters in hand that it won't matter. I used to run 3 Negate 1 chant, although I think the 2-2 split is better since Chants are more useful in more matchups than Negates.
Shackles is pretty savage against Merfolk, if you have enough Swords and Paths to get that far.
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