About the Candelabra for the deck metioned above.. I know that having 4 is a bit over kill but I think if increase the amount to 2 would be better.
Any thoughts?
I've been testing 3 in my list. Wouldn't go for 4 as drawing multiples early suck (aside from not being able to pitch for Force), however it gets better after spiraling. Ima stick with 3.
The guy from SGC said he only had 1, but would play more.Originally Posted by Ben
If I had Candelabra, I'd play 1 Capsize as wish target.
Capsize + 2 High Tide + Candelabra + 4 lands = absurdly large amount of mana...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Capsize is an interesting piece of tech alright as it generates infinite mana with 3 lands + 3 Tides + Candelabra (or 4 lands and 2 tides as you mentioned) and can the proceed to draw infinite cards with SDT, reducing variance to nil when comboing off. Have to try that piece of tech in my no-wish build.
@Infinitum, no love for C. Wish still? I find it the best tutor in the deck as it can pull you out of tight spots. When you find yourself without any option after spiraling, C. Wish suddenly can turn into a Meditate or a Stroke netting extra cards, or Turnabout which then lets me hardcast Emrakul. C. Wish also doubles as a win-con nabbing freeze, it's also a utility finding sb tech like Ravenous Trap (against Emrakul/Blessing decks), Mindbreak T. and especially Wipe Away. I wouldn't leave home without my 3 Wishes.
here's my list for starters,
Faerie-less Waves @TheSource, Take 1
4 High Tide - namesake
14 Islands/4 Scalding Tarn
Tutor: 4 Merchant Scroll/3 Cunning Wish -=kill
Protection: 4 FoW/3 Pact of Negation
Cantrips: 4 Brainstorm/3 Ponder/3 Preordain/2 Meditate/1 Stroke of Genius -=kill
Untappers: 4 Time Spiral/3 Turnabout/3 Candelabra of Tawnos
Secondary kill: Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: Meditate, Stroke, Turnabout, Brain Freeze, Hurkyl's Recall, (+10 meta slots)
Merchant Scroll and Cunning Wish are just insane, they let you grab instants inside and outside your library. How cool is that? I've played with Reset builds awhile back and was bored to death with it, this deck seems more fun. Not a tier 1, but absolute fun!
No love for wish still. I find it extremely slow, especially in the early game when I want to use the mana to sculpt my hand using cantrips and merchant scroll, and midcombo it's quite redundant since capsize, stroke and turnabout (the 3 spots I've given to it in testing) already generate mana and card advantage (and a universal hate solver in capsize). The deck already runs a full set of Scroll as well as Intuition for its tutoring needs, adding 3 more just gets awkward.
There's also the fact that it takes away pretty much the entire sideboard, slots that can be used to shore up the decks worse matchups such as Dredge and stuff with a lot of conditional counters (or artifact disruption) to keep us off high tide backed by a fast clock.
Intuition is nice and all but has a drawback in that it works only on 4-ofs. I don't mind running it alongside Wish, in fact I'm thinking of replacing Meditate with it. In testing, I still can't count the number of times C.Wish was able to pull that much needed Stroke/Turnabout/Hurkyl's or countermagic from the side.
Intuition is a total bomb in this deck.
After resolving Time Spiral the cards you put in the graveyard with Intuition just get shuffled back into the library.
I'm against cunning wish as well. I've got a list I'm working on, sans cloud of faries, I'll post it up later tonight.
Only posts when drunk.
As promised:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
10 [OD] Island (4)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
1 [UL] Palinchron
// Spells
2 [US] Rewind
2 [M11] Preordain
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [HL] Merchant Scroll
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [US] Stroke of Genius
3 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
3 [US] Time Spiral
3 [TE] Intuition
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [GP] Repeal
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [U] Tropical Island
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
A few observations:
Sometimes Rewind is the nuts, other times I wish it was a Fact or Fiction, or something...
Also, I dare you to try and lose to Merfolk with this. Goblins on the other hand can be rough if they have an aggressive draw i.e. Lackey into SGC.
It is for this reason that I'm contemplating Maindeck bounce in the form of Chain of Vapor.
What this deck needs is a Force Spike that cantrips. Disrupt wont cut the mustard.
Only posts when drunk.
IMO Palinchron serves this purpose better, since with the same lands/tides you only need one card to generate infinite mana/spell_count.
Cheers.
@kingtk3:
Thats why I run it. I've been tinkering with cutting a Stroke for a Scroll Rack. Its doing ok.
Only posts when drunk.
Not running the full 4 Spiral/Turnabout in an Intuition list, just seems so wrong.
Palinchron doesn't draw cards or bounce permanents, and having infinite storm is pretty damn novel when my list doesn't run brain freeze to begin with.
Also ditto on not running the full 4 Time Spirals. Rewind looks like a good canditate to cut (the fact that it cannot protect your mana producers should be a cue that the card simply isn't good).
Well, Grollub, lets look at why I'm doing this:
Time Spiral itself is an untap effect, so more than 3 Turnabouts are unneeded redundancy. With my list, if you've made all your land drops, you should be able to win on turn 4 with counter backup. Intuition is used to actually thin the deck by three cards, and while its useful for finding you the first Time Spiral, after that, you really want it to get a Stroke or a cantrip so you can find the Palinchron. I would usually go with a Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain Intuition post-spiral just to filter into things like meditate and what not.
Remember that Merchant Scroll and Intuition can be used as shuffle effects as well, and for this reason you will want to use your Brainstorms before hand.
Against an opponent one line of play looked like this:
Sculpted my hand till turn 4, with 4 islands in play.
High Tide > Turnabout > Time Spiral.
Opponent FOW's, I Pact back.
Spiral nets me 2 more high tides, which I cast off floating mana.
Chain cantrips, Intuitions, and untaps to I have 33U floating.
Stroke myself for 26 and without passing priority cast Pact on stroke then Rewind on Pact.
Opponent Fow's rewind, I Fow back.
Untap my lands, Draw 26 cards, Infinite mana with Palinchron, Win.
You really shouldn't have to cast Time Spiral more than once after casting a High Tide or two.
Only posts when drunk.
If you have 33U floating, and a Stroke in your hand, with Fow, you shouldn't lose anyway....
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Frankly winning with High Tide off 4 lands is easy no matter what engine you use. This discussion really should aim for the turn 3 goldfish which is just leagues better vs the half of the format that doesn't run force (turn 4 on the draw is half a turn too slow vs aggressive strategies usually, force or not).
List btw. I'm still testing the optimal Impulse/Peer ratio and trying out different sideboard configurations (white for chants, defense grid and so forth) but kinda like the green splash for Krosan Grip and Swarm. Between Force, Top, eot Turnabouts to tap out my opponent (nullifying everything not force) and the sideboard I currently have a pretty comfortable time slowrolling blue decks and still have a pretty consistent turn 3 win (depending on whether can cantrip into Spiral or not). Having a lot of untap effects really adds to consistency in my opinion as it frees up your cantrips for business and lands, which is important since you only have 3 mana in all with which to find everything when aiming for the early win.
10 Island
8 Fetches
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Turnabout
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Impulse
1 Peer Through Depts
4 Force of Will
1 Capsize
1 Stroke of Genius
Sideboard
2 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Rebuild
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
What about using Cloudstone Curio with Cloud of Faeries/Palinchron?
The following list did recently result in a spanish tournement:
MAINDECK
Lands
----------
14 Island
4 Polluted delta
Cantrips
----------
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
Counters
----------
4 Force of will
3 Pact of negation
Tutors
----------
4 Merchant scroll
3 Cunning wish
Untaps & Drawings
----------
4 Time spiral
3 Tournabout
1 Meditate
Others
----------
4 High tide
3 Retraced image
1 Brain Freeze
SIDEBOARD
4 Spell pierce
2 Snap
2 Wipe away
1 Brain freeze
1 Meditate
1 Mindbreak trap
1 Rebuild
1 Slaughter pact
1 Tourabout
1 Stroke of genius
Is a strange list but I think quite performant because of the 7 counters with cost 0, even if I've not tested it yet . The logic seem to stock as much as possible mana to play more times Time spiral that untaps lands and permit us to draw. The need of many mana explain the presence of onlt Tournabout and not Cloud of faeries and Snap and the consistent draw that Spiral guarantees explain the only 1 Meditate. This list is radical in the use of cantrips to maximize the probability to find High tide and Spiral. I understand the use of Retraced image to put more island on the board and is good in early game, to start before, and in comboing, to enjoy other drown lands. i think this card can be also replaced by Sapphire medallion.
What do you think about?
Last edited by Di; 01-14-2011 at 11:49 AM.
Well this is my list, and I posted in the former page of the thread (and is the evolution of the list I posted in the first page). If you read the whole thread you will have for sure most of the answers to questions about specific cards if any, but still if you have anything that you need to clarify just feel free to ask.
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
P.S. btw the 1 of in the others section should be Brain freeze.
I'm assuming that the 4 spell pierces in the SB are there for the matches where your opponent has counters as well which means they will be having islands as well, which will then be affected by your high tides, which allows them to pay for spell pierce in counter wars... isn't dispel better in this case?
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