[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Lejay]

I think we need to discuss Cabal Therapy. With 3-4 Mogg War Marshall in the main, 3-4 Cabal Therapies in the board seem really sick in a lot of matchups. It helps against TES, enchantress, stax, other controlly/comboey decks, etc. After the first few turns, you can probably name 56 of the cards in your opponents deck. Siding them in gives us 3-4 more one-drops. Leading with a Therapy then playing MWM and flashing Therapy back on turn two is ridiculous. It also gives us a way to fight Engineered Plague without being forced to splash green.

Has anyone used Therapy successfully (or unsuccessfully) yet? If so, what decks did you bring it in against? There is a slight chance I'm going to SCG Indy and if I do, I will either play g/r with Rancors (if i'm feeling adventurous ) or b/r with Therapies in the board

I have been playing cabal therapy main deck for 6 months and it is simply awesome. You don't run MWM with therapy though, the synergy with stingscourger is much more powerful, and without therapy stingscourger is about as good as a time walk effect than MWM.

[Mantis]

Cabal Therapy is extremely solid against storm combo, at least as good as Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst against storm. It certainly turns storm into a winnable matchup, if not a great one.

No it does not. You will slow them down by using Therapy, but at the same time you also slow yourself down by using mana to cast it and Goblins to sacrifice. Cabal Therapy, while passable against TES, is way, way worse than Chalice. I would appreciate it if an expert storm combo player could comment on this though.

I was 8-0 at GP Madrid and then lost to David Do-Ahn, who it to the finals there, while I drew 2 Therapy and I did not name the wrong cards there. If those 2 Therapies were Chalice of the Voids, I would have beaten him.

[GoboLord]

I have been playing cabal therapy main deck for 6 months and it is simply awesome. You don't run MWM with therapy though, the synergy with stingscourger is much more powerful, and without therapy stingscourger is about as good as a time walk effect than MWM.

That maybe true but this isn't a question of wether to run Stingscourger OR MWM. Stingscourger uses 1-3 slots of our 6-8 removals whereas MWM is played in addition to removal.
If you play against combo you probably side out Stinger and bring in CT, which means that the synergy doesnt matter in the combo MU. If you run MWM in MD i wouln't boar it out against combo, which means that here the synergy with CT does matter.
Against control however you may use Stinger to bounce a creature and then just flashback CT and let your opp discard it; but I guess most of the time you won't name creatures with CT anyway but more dangerous permanents as E.Plague, Moat etc.

Against what decks (other than combo of course) did you bring in CT?`And could you share your list and explain what you board out in those MUs?

//EDIT:

No it does not. You will slow them down by using Therapy, but at the same time you also slow yourself down by using mana to cast it and Goblins to sacrifice. Cabal Therapy, while passable against TES, is way, way worse than Chalice. I would appreciate it if an expert storm combo player could comment on this though.

I was 8-0 at GP Madrid and then lost to David Do-Ahn, who it to the finals there, while I drew 2 Therapy and I did not name the wrong cards there. If those 2 Therapies were Chalice of the Voids, I would have beaten him.

I second that. We should run CT in addition to and not instead of combo-hate.

[Lejay]

CotV is for sure better than CT against storm combo. The reason I prefer Cabal over CotV is that it is far more versatile, up to this point that apparently has been missed :

I have been playing cabal therapy main deck for 6 months

// NAME : [T1.5] Goblin Therapy
// CREATOR : LeJay (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Classic
2 Auntie's Hovel
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sparksmith
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Æther Vial
1 Warren Weirding
3 Cabal Therapy

SB: 3 Skirk Prospector
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Earwig Squad
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

Cabal therapy when facing non-control non-combo match-ups is used to empower stingscourger as targeted removal or to discard creatures preemptively naming the most dangerous/ obvious.
I won't underline every use of the card because you know... it can deal with everything. But you have to realise the card is very synergistic with a deck playing 50% creatures AND with the mana denial.
This also completely changes match-ups that are perceived as very bad. Firespout, moat, solitary confinement, wrath, Humility, Infernal tutor etc... are all cards that when hit will probably allow you to win the game instead of loosing it.

As you will see there is no dedicated hate in my sideboard. This is how I build in legacy. I sideboard according to game plans, reinforcing the one that is the more suitable for the match-up. This means I have NEVER dead cards in my deck post sideboard. This also allows me to run a very strong disruptive suit against combo without being unprepared agaisnt other match-ups.
Against match-ups like control and combo where you have a lot of removal to side out you bring in discard and more threats to become more disruptive.
Against match-up where you act as a board control you side out the agressive elements to bring in pyrokinesis and the 4th cabal therapy.
Against match-ups where vial is too slow (tendrills decks, elfball, affinity, enchantress...) you bring in prospectors. They also act as hate against bridge from below, to handle jitte, or to support an agressive game plan against prison decks or aggro-loam.

As a side note running 7 goblins in the board helps keep the ringleaders pretty good in G2/3.

[Nelis]

As you will see there is no dedicated hate in my sideboard. This is how I build in legacy. I sideboard according to game plans, reinforcing the one that is the more suitable for the match-up. This means I have NEVER dead cards in my deck post sideboard. This also allows me to run a very strong disruptive suit against combo without being unprepared agaisnt other match-ups.
Against match-ups like control and combo where you have a lot of removal to side out you bring in discard and more threats to become more disruptive.
Against match-up where you act as a board control you side out the agressive elements to bring in pyrokinesis and the 4th cabal therapy.
Against match-ups where vial is too slow (tendrills decks, elfball, affinity, enchantress...) you bring in prospectors. They also act as hate against bridge from below, to handle jitte, or to support an agressive game plan against prison decks or aggro-loam.

I like your style! I use to have the same philosophy but somewhere down the line I somehow forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me. You've given me the last incentive I needed to change my MonoR back into R/B.

[jin]

CotV is for sure better than CT against storm combo. The reason I prefer Cabal over CotV is that it is far more versatile, up to this point that apparently has been missed :

// NAME : [T1.5] Goblin Therapy
// CREATOR : LeJay (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Classic
2 Auntie's Hovel
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sparksmith
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Æther Vial
1 Warren Weirding
3 Cabal Therapy

SB: 3 Skirk Prospector
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Earwig Squad
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

Cabal therapy when facing non-control non-combo match-ups is used to empower stingscourger as targeted removal or to discard creatures preemptively naming the most dangerous/ obvious.
I won't underline every use of the card because you know... it can deal with everything. But you have to realise the card is very synergistic with a deck playing 50% creatures AND with the mana denial.
This also completely changes match-ups that are perceived as very bad. Firespout, moat, solitary confinement, wrath, Humility, Infernal tutor etc... are all cards that when hit will probably allow you to win the game instead of loosing it.

As you will see there is no dedicated hate in my sideboard. This is how I build in legacy. I sideboard according to game plans, reinforcing the one that is the more suitable for the match-up. This means I have NEVER dead cards in my deck post sideboard. This also allows me to run a very strong disruptive suit against combo without being unprepared agaisnt other match-ups.
Against match-ups like control and combo where you have a lot of removal to side out you bring in discard and more threats to become more disruptive.
Against match-up where you act as a board control you side out the agressive elements to bring in pyrokinesis and the 4th cabal therapy.
Against match-ups where vial is too slow (tendrills decks, elfball, affinity, enchantress...) you bring in prospectors. They also act as hate against bridge from below, to handle jitte, or to support an agressive game plan against prison decks or aggro-loam.

As a side note running 7 goblins in the board helps keep the ringleaders pretty good in G2/3.

Sorry if I missed anything, I just joined the conversation...

I see the synergy you are talking about where you turn your stingers into removal through bounce and therapy, but it seems a little tedious to hold back your "1 drop" therapies for until after you have received your stingers. It seems like you are too focused on this mini combo and have dedicated too many cards to it going so far as kicking gempalms down to 2 and weirding down to 1. A problem I can see is if you had stingers as your only removal and you have no therapy. Looking for it would be nearly impossible as Ringleaders will surely push it to the bottom. In this sense I would even rather use Lightning Bolts maindeck or Pyrokinesis over extra Stingers/Cabal Therapy combo. I would go so far as calling your type of synergy the same as the Lightning Crafter Kiki-jiki package. Although I do not disagree with Cabal Therapy main, I do disagree with increasing the number of stingers and reducing real removal for this therapy/stinger package. I am not convinced that your removal package is stronger than traditional Goblin removal packages or even the more recent ones that include Lightning Bolt.

Sparksmith is interesting, although I don't know if I'd use him before having 4 gempalms.

Also regarding your sideboard, if you play black why not play Perish? I mean it goes with Goblin's removal strategy. If you have more creatures than your opponents, then you win. That's what Goblin does. What's the point of playing black without playing Perish? Is discard the only reason?

From your card choices on your sideboard, you must sideboard pretty heavily putting in 5+ cards into the main every game 2 or 3. Although your methodology on sideboarding has merit, don't you think that by NOT boarding in hate (aka more effective cards), you are weakening your game 2/3? Cards of versatility belong in your main board, cards of power belong in your sideboard.

I'm sorry, that argument about NOT having dead cards doesn't cut it for me. The point of a sideboard is not to have dead cards, so saying that your strategy provides that simply means nothing to me. Having discard simply because it is versatile doesn't warrent a strong sideboard.

For example, Pithing Needle is super versatile. Sometimes it acts as mana disruption, sometimes it acts as removal, sometimes ti acts as a way to stop a plainswalker. Do we board them in against every deck simply because it goes with Goblin's strategy of mana denial, removing blockers and stopping game winning jaces? No, because there are better cards for those match ups.

No it does not. You will slow them down by using Therapy, but at the same time you also slow yourself down by using mana to cast it and Goblins to sacrifice. Cabal Therapy, while passable against TES, is way, way worse than Chalice. I would appreciate it if an expert storm combo player could comment on this though.

I was 8-0 at GP Madrid and then lost to David Do-Ahn, who it to the finals there, while I drew 2 Therapy and I did not name the wrong cards there. If those 2 Therapies were Chalice of the Voids, I would have beaten him.

Agreed...

There is no way I'd call myself an expert storm player, but if you have no goblins... it's not hard to lay down artifact mana and wait for Infernal Tutor into Ad Nauseam. Discard-alone is NOT a valid strategy against TES as your "discard" is nothing compared to Rock, and the Rock matchup is not a hard match up at all. A combination of hate is always scarier...

Although there aren't THAT many good combo players, so you might get by with just the discard. In the end though, Chalice of the Void is better if it is the only combo hate you are playing as it completely shuts down the artifact mana into Storm Engine. Having an agressive board also shuts off Ad Nauseam which Chalice allows you to have. If you were playing main deck therapy like Lejay, then the Chalices would be even better.

[GoblinZ]

Hi everyone

My meta is full of zoo and affinity，Now I have 1 sharpshooter3 gempalm 2 mogg fanatic 2 stingscourger and 2 warren weirding as removal in my main board and I want to kick 2 fanatic off and add 2 Mogg war marshall。I donnot know if mogg war marshall is better than mogg fanatic。。。please give me some advice。。。

[Lejay]

I see the synergy you are talking about where you turn your stingers into removal through bounce and therapy, but it seems a little tedious to hold back your "1 drop" therapies for until after you have received your stingers. It seems like you are too focused on this mini combo and have dedicated too many cards to it going so far as kicking gempalms down to 2 and weirding down to 1. A problem I can see is if you had stingers as your only removal and you have no therapy. Looking for it would be nearly impossible as Ringleaders will surely push it to the bottom. In this sense I would even rather use Lightning Bolts maindeck or Pyrokinesis over extra Stingers/Cabal Therapy combo. I would go so far as calling your type of synergy the same as the Lightning Crafter Kiki-jiki package. Although I do not disagree with Cabal Therapy main, I do disagree with increasing the number of stingers and reducing real removal for this therapy/stinger package. I am not convinced that your removal package is stronger than traditional Goblin removal packages or even the more recent ones that include Lightning Bolt.

No no no no no.^^
Your main point seems to be, basically, that stingscourger + cabal therapy is a cute combo, but its components are bad (let's say not optimal) on their own. I'm not holding back cabal therapies.
Maybe it's my fault because it is the first thing I argued in talking about Cabal, but stingscourger is just a synergy. Like mana denial and cabal therapy have a synergy too. But you don't need to run cabal to see that mana denial is good in this deck. This is the same for cabal therapy, and this is the same for stingscourger.

Cabal therapy will be often weaker than lightning bolt as removal, as bolt is pure and simple removal against small creatures. But cabal therapy alone also gives you a shot at discarding tarmogoyf before opponent's turn 2, or knight of the reliquary before turn 3. If they don't have it, well that's pretty good news. Also if they have multiples YOU DEAL WITH ALL OF THEM.
More importantly you can deal with other spells. Of course removal, but especially you can deal with game breaking effects like a storm engine, a moat, firespout etc... I already talked about it. What can lightning bolt do against this ? Not very much.

Of course when you are paired against brad nelson's rock you'd rather play warren weiring than stingscourger the vast majority of the time. But stingscourger can deal with the big problem when your opponent has several creatures. It also can be played through a vial with two counters. It also deals 2/3 additional damage with a warchief/chieftain +2 per piledriver. It also doesn't gives +2/+2 to future goyfs and finally with everyone going crazy with Emrakul I just love to have an uncounterable answer playing it through vial or show and tell.

I'll go back on the stingscourger + cabal synergy though. I figured out playing this list that sting+cabal is probably (considering mana denial is not an option) the best turn 3 for this deck, better than a turn 3 warchief.
The reason is in legacy your opponent very often has an answer being either counters or removals. Turn 3 warchief is sensitive to all of them.
Playing Sting+ cabal means that you will almost always do something of your turn 3. If your opponent has removal, he will still loose his big dude/painter etc... and any additionnal copy in hand no matter what. If he has daze in hand that's the same. Worst case he has FoW. Most of the opponents will probably not force a stingscourger, and then they're screwed. Even if they do know you run cabal therapy, you can make them do a mistake by bluffing having a cabal therapy.
And of course best case if your opponent has no response you will still kill a dude with a peek effect and probably discard 1, 2 or 3 cards. It's not that rare I discard 5 cards with a single cabal therapy.

Sparksmith is interesting, although I don't know if I'd use him before having 4 gempalms.

For me sparksmith has been a staple in legacy goblins for 2 years. I tried removing it once and it quickly reached back its home.

Also regarding your sideboard, if you play black why not play Perish? I mean it goes with Goblin's removal strategy. If you have more creatures than your opponents, then you win. That's what Goblin does. What's the point of playing black without playing Perish? Is discard the only reason?

I essentially play black for cabal therapy, access to a warren weirding and squad in the board. I really find squad very good. It is at the same time a threat and disruption. It helps dodging propaganda effects. It dodges double plague. It dodges beb, CoP:red, sphere of law and pyrolasm (let's say volcanic fallout these days). And you can play it as soon as turn 2 either with skirk or with lackey + warchief.
About perish. This is probably the best targeted hate card for goblins right now as it is very effective and often useful in the current metagame. But I found a very well balanced equilibrium in the 15 cards of my sideboard which are all very versatile and complementary. Also as I optimised my main deck against aggro control I really don't feel it is necessary. When sideboarding I don't evaluate the value of the card I'm bringing in. I think the correct way to think about it is to evaluate the added value of the card you bring in minus the value of the card you sideboard out. With this philosophy, as I really like every piece of the main deck against aggro control (can vary but usually -1 FTG +1 cabal therapy) and have few to side out against zoo (-4 piledrivers -1 chieftain + 4 pyrokinesis +1 cabal therapy) I really feel the added value of perish is not that high. It is even more questionable when you add to the equation that 3 mana sorcery is a real problem against daze and spell pierce (because they expect perish !). I'd rather play pyrokinesis which is far more efficient against elfball (perish is too slow), maverick, merfolk, affinity, mirror match etc...

From your card choices on your sideboard, you must sideboard pretty heavily putting in 5+ cards into the main every game 2 or 3. Although your methodology on sideboarding has merit, don't you think that by NOT boarding in hate (aka more effective cards), you are weakening your game 2/3? Cards of versatility belong in your main board, cards of power belong in your sideboard.

This is true. Except you are not playing standard. You are playing legacy. There are so many competitive decks in this format it is insane. So you can in one tournament face ichorid and loose, next time run grave hate and loose against affinity. And next time play artifact removal loose against enchantress, then storm combo etc...

I'm sorry, that argument about NOT having dead cards doesn't cut it for me. The point of a sideboard is not to have dead cards, so saying that your strategy provides that simply means nothing to me. Having discard simply because it is versatile doesn't warrent a strong sideboard.

You are right. Except my sideboard isn't weak at all. I assure you I feel very powerful when I draw my sideboard cards. They are strong and versatile.
The notable exception is probably ichorid. This is a match-up where my sideboard isn't about quality but quantity. But the deck is really really under the radar right now because everybody else is running grave hate.

These considerations on metagaming the sideboard in a small event are perfectly valid. But this is not what we should discuss on an international board, or you have to give your metagame and justify your targeted sideboard along with. I personnally always play in 50+ people events, so I choose the versatile (and powerful) sideboard.

EDIT :

Hi everyone

My meta is full of zoo and affinity，Now I have 1 sharpshooter3 gempalm 2 mogg fanatic 2 stingscourger and 2 warren weirding as removal in my main board and I want to kick 2 fanatic off and add 2 Mogg war marshall。I donnot know if mogg war marshall is better than mogg fanatic。。。please give me some advice。。。

Play 4 lightning bolts main deck in this metagame with pyrokinesis in the sideboard. If you can add perish and artifact removal.

[Lorenzo767]

You manabase and MD are almost perfect IMO.
If you run Cabal Therapy in SB MWM is just killer! I would run 3-4 copies in MD you can cut Kiki-Jiki (hard to get RRR with 7 colorless lands), Wort and 1 or 2 Chieftain maybe.
YOu sideboard is good but I don't like the Goblin King. You could run the 4th Tormod's Crypt or 2nd STingscourger (against Show and Tell). If you want to stick to a Lord in SB I'd rather play Chieftain than Goblin King, because haste is simply better than Mountainwalk.

I'm not sure if Run CT or something different like 3 Pyrokinesi and 1 Tormods (the fourth) ora 3-4 Earwig Squad...and i also want to know if MWM is really more stronger than the 1x toolbox that i'm actually using, i think that MWM is stronger vs agroo deck like Zoo but i think that generally the Toolbox could be more performative...what do you think about that?
For the third Lord i prefear the King because of Mountainwalk, is auspicable that i wanna use it vs deck with removal or engineered plague and for example vs Zoo i think that King could be stronger because of Mountain-Walk...
Another possibility i wanna check is to play a 2° Sharpshooter in sideboard..but maybe without Fanatic/Prospector it's not too good...

Aniway, i need more opinion so i paste again my post:

Hi!
In the last month i restart playing magic after 4 years of stop and i decided to begin play Legacy for a lot of reason, expecially because i'm a goblin-lover :D
So i keep on hand again my old Extended Goblin deck (it was with the Patriarch's Bidding xD) and i try to Re-build the decklist adeguating it for legacy, for my purpose i visited and read a lot of forum,site and articles about Legacy and Vial Goblin and i tested my deck on mws ( :( in my zone legacy it's not too popular...)

The result actually is this:

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Badlands
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Goblin King
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

Or -4 Therapy -1 Tin Street + 2 Earwig Squad + 3 REB

I want to know your opinion about my decklist and my choice...
My biggest doubt are:
MWM Yes or not? if yes what can i remove from MD for it? and how many copy? 3?
It's the 1x tool a good choyce? if not why?
The mana-base it's ok? or i should improve ti with the 4° Rishadan port? 22 land are enough?
Warren Weirding 2 o 3 copy?
In the MD there are some card that i would like to play but i have no space: 1 Tin Street Hooligan,1 Skirk Prospector( some interesting trick and make me remove quickly the Bridge From Below) 1 Earwing Squad

And finally i'm not sure of what to play on SB but i think SB must be builded in base of Metagame...so i't just a teorically discussion...

Thank you guys and sorry for my english and for the Post Repetition xD

[jin]

Hi everyone

My meta is full of zoo and affinity，Now I have 1 sharpshooter3 gempalm 2 mogg fanatic 2 stingscourger and 2 warren weirding as removal in my main board and I want to kick 2 fanatic off and add 2 Mogg war marshall。I donnot know if mogg war marshall is better than mogg fanatic。。。please give me some advice。。。

It is for your metagame... Blocking with War Marshal creates a lot of time for you to set up for an alpha strike.

No no no no no.^^
Your main point seems to be, basically, that stingscourger + cabal therapy is a cute combo, but its components are bad (let's say not optimal) on their own. I'm not holding back cabal therapies.
Maybe it's my fault because it is the first thing I argued in talking about Cabal, but stingscourger is just a synergy. Like mana denial and cabal therapy have a synergy too. But you don't need to run cabal to see that mana denial is good in this deck. This is the same for cabal therapy, and this is the same for stingscourger.

Cabal therapy will be often weaker than lightning bolt as removal, as bolt is pure and simple removal against small creatures. But cabal therapy alone also gives you a shot at discarding tarmogoyf before opponent's turn 2, or knight of the reliquary before turn 3. If they don't have it, well that's pretty good news. Also if they have multiples YOU DEAL WITH ALL OF THEM.
More importantly you can deal with other spells. Of course removal, but especially you can deal with game breaking effects like a storm engine, a moat, firespout etc... I already talked about it. What can lightning bolt do against this ? Not very much.

Of course when you are paired against brad nelson's rock you'd rather play warren weiring than stingscourger the vast majority of the time. But stingscourger can deal with the big problem when your opponent has several creatures. It also can be played through a vial with two counters. It also deals 2/3 additional damage with a warchief/chieftain +2 per piledriver. It also doesn't gives +2/+2 to future goyfs and finally with everyone going crazy with Emrakul I just love to have an uncounterable answer playing it through vial or show and tell.

I'll go back on the stingscourger + cabal synergy though. I figured out playing this list that sting+cabal is probably (considering mana denial is not an option) the best turn 3 for this deck, better than a turn 3 warchief.
The reason is in legacy your opponent very often has an answer being either counters or removals. Turn 3 warchief is sensitive to all of them.
Playing Sting+ cabal means that you will almost always do something of your turn 3. If your opponent has removal, he will still loose his big dude/painter etc... and any additionnal copy in hand no matter what. If he has daze in hand that's the same. Worst case he has FoW. Most of the opponents will probably not force a stingscourger, and then they're screwed. Even if they do know you run cabal therapy, you can make them do a mistake by bluffing having a cabal therapy.
And of course best case if your opponent has no response you will still kill a dude with a peek effect and probably discard 1, 2 or 3 cards. It's not that rare I discard 5 cards with a single cabal therapy.

Yes, that is my argument. I would also use "not optimal" because I am a fan of Cabal Therapy and Stingscourger. Oh I see, so you just use it but not necessarily together. That makes more sense.

Yeah, you don't have to sell me Cabal Therapy, I agree with what you said although what I don't agree with is what you say as therapy's possible targets. For your first example about goyf, would you really preemptively therapy for goyf over dropping goblins for a "chance" to hit some future threats? I'm not so sure about that. That is a huge tempo loss drawing valuable coloured mana. For your second examples storm engine/moat/firespout, do you really think therapy would hit these things unless they topdeck them? I'm not so sure since moat/storm engines are usually silver bullets and get tutored out. Unless they draw them, I don't think you'd get that many chances to strip it from them via discard.

I know where you are coming from with the stinger vs weirding argument. I myself hated weirding when I played it (that's why I continue to play mono R), but I wouldn't go so far as to have more stingers in a build that runs black since weird is hard removal and stinger is soft. I'm pretty sure most people black black because of weirding and not inspite of it. In terms of spot removal, stinger is better but you have main deck spark smith and sharpshooter to take care of the swarm. I'm sure your weirding can handle the rest.

It does seem like a defensive strategy and a strong turm 3 play. I don't know anyone who would counter a stinger on turn 3. But again, this relies heavily on you having both stinger and therapy on turn 3 which is asking a lot of a non-goblin card. Although, having flashback does work to your advantage.

For me sparksmith has been a staple in legacy goblins for 2 years. I tried removing it once and it quickly reached back its home.

It gets removed fairly easily in the Zoo matchup, so I'm thinking it's only valid in the aggro-control match up..

Do you keep it in against Zoo?

I essentially play black for cabal therapy, access to a warren weirding and squad in the board. I really find squad very good. It is at the same time a threat and disruption. It helps dodging propaganda effects. It dodges double plague. It dodges beb, CoP:red, sphere of law and pyrolasm (let's say volcanic fallout these days). And you can play it as soon as turn 2 either with skirk or with lackey + warchief.
About perish. This is probably the best targeted hate card for goblins right now as it is very effective and often useful in the current metagame. But I found a very well balanced equilibrium in the 15 cards of my sideboard which are all very versatile and complementary. Also as I optimised my main deck against aggro control I really don't feel it is necessary. When sideboarding I don't evaluate the value of the card I'm bringing in. I think the correct way to think about it is to evaluate the added value of the card you bring in minus the value of the card you sideboard out. With this philosophy, as I really like every piece of the main deck against aggro control (can vary but usually -1 FTG +1 cabal therapy) and have few to side out against zoo (-4 piledrivers -1 chieftain + 4 pyrokinesis +1 cabal therapy) I really feel the added value of perish is not that high. It is even more questionable when you add to the equation that 3 mana sorcery is a real problem against daze and spell pierce (because they expect perish !). I'd rather play pyrokinesis which is far more efficient against elfball (perish is too slow), maverick, merfolk, affinity, mirror match etc...

Earwig Squad is strong no doubt, but in today's metagame where Goblin is more defensive, don't you think it's harding to get him out? Would you destroy your own army preemptively just to get him out? My concern isn't with Earwig Squad's strenghts, it's with its weaknesses.

I think Perish is more for the aggro match up rather than the aggro control match up.

Yeah, Perish takes up the same slot as Pyrokinesis, so I'm questioning whether you should run them side by side, I'm asking shouldn't you run one over the other. In this case Perish over Pyrokinesis because of your black splash. It just seems stronger against Zoo. I'm not too familiar with the elfball list, but I'm pretty sure Goblin Sharpshooter can handle it. Your fish matchups improve with discard, and the rest is moot.

When sideboarding I don't evaluate the value of the card I'm bringing in. I think the correct way to think about it is to evaluate the added value of the card you bring in minus the value of the card you sideboard out.

Isn't that everyone's philosophy? No one boards in cards because they work, people board in cards because they work better. I'd say boarding out 1 ringleader is a common thing for me since boarding in nongoblin cards that are stronger in the matchup will essentially weaken my ringleaders. Also drawing a ringleader when digger for an answer is also a problem.

This is true. Except you are not playing standard. You are playing legacy. There are so many competitive decks in this format it is insane. So you can in one tournament face ichorid and loose, next time run grave hate and loose against affinity. And next time play artifact removal loose against enchantress, then storm combo etc...

I don't play standard so I wouldn't know. The reason why this metagame is so fun is because of its diversity. You go into it expecting lots of decks. That is why your maindeck has versatility to handle your good matchups while your sideboard is needed to bring in cards against your bad matchups.

If you have nothing to give you leverage against your bad matchups, you'll just fall quickly.

Let's use 43lands as an example since we can all agree that that is a bad match up. What would you sideboard here? Earwig Squad to get the Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm? I think we'd all agree that Blood Moon is a much more narrow card, but provides much more power. This is what I mean by leverage.

You are right. Except my sideboard isn't weak at all. I assure you I feel very powerful when I draw my sideboard cards. They are strong and versatile.
The notable exception is probably ichorid. This is a match-up where my sideboard isn't about quality but quantity. But the deck is really really under the radar right now because everybody else is running grave hate.

These considerations on metagaming the sideboard in a small event are perfectly valid. But this is not what we should discuss on an international board, or you have to give your metagame and justify your targeted sideboard along with. I personnally always play in 50+ people events, so I choose the versatile (and powerful) sideboard.

I don't think this is true. Metagaming exists in small tournaments as well as large tournaments. If you prepare for the more common decks, that is a type of Metagaming. If you'd notice during Kansas, Zoo was nearly non existant. In this case, it would have been safe to not play Perish. A better use of the sideboard would be to play more anti blue cards as a lack of Zoo presence often means a resurgence of fish and Goblins (and affinity apparently).

If you noticed, an example of this Metagaming is the 9th place Counterbalance Top finish. I would expect that he expected there to be little Zoo, hence the lack of maindeck Firespout. He simply opted for pure card advantage with a black splash.

For the third Lord i prefear the King because of Mountainwalk, is auspicable that i wanna use it vs deck with removal or engineered plague and for example vs Zoo i think that King could be stronger because of Mountain-Walk...

I've tried this. Goblin King doesn't work in decks that play Plague since Boartusk Liege barely works against decks that play plague because decks that play plague often have a LOT of spot removal.

Goblin King against Zoo is also not valid. I've tried this as well. It just seems win more if you are winning with it and sucks when you are losing as it can be easily removed from Zoo's 11 spot removal not including Lavamancer. A better option here, that I found, is Goblin Pyromancer. He gets the damage through like Goblin King, but he doesn't need to be in play for that to happen so removal on it doesn't matter at all. It's essentially there for the alpha strike. It is also a card you can sideboard in in the mirror match.

[Lejay]

Yeah, you don't have to sell me Cabal Therapy, I agree with what you said although what I don't agree with is what you say as therapy's possible targets. For your first example about goyf, would you really preemptively therapy for goyf over dropping goblins for a "chance" to hit some future threats? I'm not so sure about that. That is a huge tempo loss drawing valuable coloured mana. For your second examples storm engine/moat/firespout, do you really think therapy would hit these things unless they topdeck them? I'm not so sure since moat/storm engines are usually silver bullets and get tutored out. Unless they draw them, I don't think you'd get that many chances to strip it from them via discard.

My tarmogoyf example would of course be a bad one if you are on the draw and you have an aether vial in hand. Otherwise this is a perfectly acceptable target. This is the creature you are fearing the most. This is the card you are fearing the most. Therefore I'd rather suffer a small tempo loss in "vomiting my hand" rather than have a tarmogoyf in front of me. Also playing cabal as soon means you can flashback it or play another hitting for sure. The turn 2 pildriver on the play/on the draw (preboard) or the turn 1 lackey on the draw are not really important for this deck, so playing cabal is much more safer. When they don't have it, you are in a pretty good shape.
Also once again you can always maximize the use of cabal with mana denial. Use your ports and sometimes waste to slow them down a maximum letting them draw cards. Then name the threat before they would be able to play it.
Of course having stingscourger in hand means I can slowplay my cabal therapy until they play a threat.
About the tutoring effect, yes that can happen. But mystical is banned now. You can also discard the tutor like sterling grove, and you have to learn to name cards like enlightned tutor or brainstorm when they are fulltaped or feel they want to gamble with you to not be in a difficult situation when you flashback.

I know where you are coming from with the stinger vs weirding argument. I myself hated weirding when I played it (that's why I continue to play mono R), but I wouldn't go so far as to have more stingers in a build that runs black since weird is hard removal and stinger is soft. I'm pretty sure most people black black because of weirding and not inspite of it. In terms of spot removal, stinger is better but you have main deck spark smith and sharpshooter to take care of the swarm. I'm sure your weirding can handle the rest.

If you are a monored player by choice I don't understand your opinion.^^ I feel you have the same idea written in stone as a lot of players that Rb = warren weiring and MonoRed = Stingscourger. I remember a discussion on a french forum where I said that the only advantage to playing mono red was improving your manabase and a good player known as goblins adept answered that "no, monored build also has more punch thanks to stingscourger". You are not bound to play warren weirding ! I really like stingscourger better because of all the advantages I said earlier. I really feel 1 warren weirding to tutor is enough (except when playing reanimator of course).
My choice is to run black to have better stingscourgers + squad + a tutorable weirding. Not to run multiple weirdings. You are not a heavy control deck, you just need to gain a little tempo for either kill your opponent or establish board control with FTG, SGC or sparksmith (or Wort if you run it). Also warren weirding is very bad at controlling in a lot of spots.

It gets removed fairly easily in the Zoo matchup, so I'm thinking it's only valid in the aggro-control match up..

Do you keep it in against Zoo?

It's awesome in the AC match-up. I still play it against zoo. It has "must be dealt with" written on it when you had it in your opening hand. It's also a very good option to matron for when they fulltaped for KotR or when you discarded their removal.

Earwig Squad is strong no doubt, but in today's metagame where Goblin is more defensive, don't you think it's harding to get him out? Would you destroy your own army preemptively just to get him out? My concern isn't with Earwig Squad's strenghts, it's with its weaknesses.

I'm not playing the deck more defensively than before. The only real difference in my mind is that zoo is more agressive, and is (has been?) more popular than Taïga was. I feel goblins is considered to be played more defensively because people decided to play cards that are more defensive like MWM and WW because of zoo. I'm not.
With squad playing defensively is not an option. You typically side it in when you are the agressor. Against combo, against control, against aggro-loam etc... Therefore I don't have trouble sacrificing a prospector or matron to play him. Also connecting is not a problem since there is about 0 blockers in the match-ups I side it in. As I said I sideboard according to game plans.

I think Perish is more for the aggro match up rather than the aggro control match up.

Yeah, Perish takes up the same slot as Pyrokinesis, so I'm questioning whether you should run them side by side, I'm asking shouldn't you run one over the other. In this case Perish over Pyrokinesis because of your black splash. It just seems stronger against Zoo.

I think the most determining element in not playing perish has been at the very beginning of my testing sessions when I went back to Rb rather than Rg (for main deck sylvan library). I started playing full playset of perish as a start because I had 4 slots. When I sided it in I realised the card was not always effective, sometimes sensible to soft counters, and sometimes too slow. So since I thought as you that the zoo match-up was the best justification of playing it I playtested against zoo without perish in the board. To my own surprise the match-up was about 50/50. Since then I choose to rely on pyrokinesis alone and zoo being less and less played is not going to change my mind.

I'm not too familiar with the elfball list, but I'm pretty sure Goblin Sharpshooter can handle it.

You only run 5 of them though, and Elfball has the potential to kill you as soon as turn 2, regularly on turn 3.

Your fish matchups improve with discard, and the rest is moot.

Against Merfolk monoU I usually side out discard. I'm a board control deck against a very fast aggro deck so I can't risk topdecking discard when I need goblins to either gain time, deal with the board, or empower my drivers for lethal. However I have to keep the therapies against Ub. It's funny because I can side 4 different ways against merfolk, not considering the other splashes, whether I am against monoU, Ub, on the play or on the draw.
I'm not sure what you mean by moot. But I face these decks regularly, especially maverick which is very popular right now. And perish would be either marginal or completely useless against these decks, while I still have 4 piledrivers in the main that are far from optimal. I think that the survival era underlined how there is a difference between the US and Europe, american players being more inclined to play what is considered the deck with the most raw power, and europeans who prefer metagaming which involves more diversity and evolving trends. It may be because you have regular big tournaments now, so less pet decks in the equation. Also my point is bad if you are not american.^^

Let's use 43lands as an example since we can all agree that that is a bad match up. What would you sideboard here? Earwig Squad to get the Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm? I think we'd all agree that Blood Moon is a much more narrow card, but provides much more power. This is what I mean by leverage.

Well squad removing chiasm and tabernacle is a very good step to winning. How many moons effect do you play ? I play 8 squads + ringleaders. How many match-ups blood moon will be as powerful ? None. It is good against landstill, but so is squad. Also your opponent is very likely to fetch basics because of waste and squad is also far better against enchantress or storm combo.
You can prove everything with examples at MTG. Blood moon is good when you have 2+ people playing 43 lands into a 20 players shop tourney. When this configuration happened to me a few month ago, I sleeved 2 blood moons just before the tournament (and as a side note didn't face them^^). So unless that happens again I'll go with the squads.

If you noticed, an example of this Metagaming is the 9th place Counterbalance Top finish. I would expect that he expected there to be little Zoo, hence the lack of maindeck Firespout. He simply opted for pure card advantage with a black splash.

I know where our points of views diverge. When I am metagaming, 90% of my metagaming consists of choosing the deck, not a sideboard. The last time I played in tournaments it was in an expected meta of survival, storm combo, and no counterbalance. I chose not to play goblins for obvious reasons nor my other favorite doomsday. Instead I chose to play a deck I only played once (at GP Madrid), reanimator, and made top 8 in both events : the 71 players side event on saturday and the 235 players event on sunday.[/cocky]
If people in this thread can't switch decks for budget reasons and can't borrow one, I understand metagaming with silver bullets in not too big tournaments. But you have to keep in mind when discussing about it that this is not optimal for competitive tournament play.

[jin]

My tarmogoyf example would of course be a bad one if you are on the draw and you have an aether vial in hand. Otherwise this is a perfectly acceptable target. ... creature you are fearing the most.

I do not feel that Tarmogoyf is the creature I fear the most. I would say Rhox War Monk is as it has a big butt and can gain life making the race very difficult. Against my Goblin deck, goyfs are at most a 2/3 unless my opponent puts his own stuff in the yard...

About the tutoring effect, yes that can happen. But mystical is banned now. You can also discard the tutor like sterling grove, and you have to learn to name cards like enlightned tutor or brainstorm when they are fulltaped or feel they want to gamble with you to not be in a difficult situation when you flashback.

What i mean is, you can play around their tutors, but their tutors can play around your discard on their silverbullets. Yes mystical tutor is banned but Enlightened Tutor and the one you mentioned Sterling Grove are still in the format.

If you are a monored player by choice I don't understand your opinion.^^ I feel you have the same idea written in stone as a lot of players that Rb = warren weiring and MonoRed = Stingscourger. I remember a discussion on a french forum where I said that the only advantage to playing mono red was improving your manabase and a good player known as goblins adept answered that "no, monored build also has more punch thanks to stingscourger". You are not bound to play warren weirding ! I really like stingscourger better because of all the advantages I said earlier. I really feel 1 warren weirding to tutor is enough (except when playing reanimator of course).
My choice is to run black to have better stingscourgers + squad + a tutorable weirding. Not to run multiple weirdings. You are not a heavy control deck, you just need to gain a little tempo for either kill your opponent or establish board control with FTG, SGC or sparksmith (or Wort if you run it). Also warren weirding is very bad at controlling in a lot of spots.

Yes I am monored by choice, but it's not my deck in question right now, it's your's. I feel that if you are going to go through the trouble of weaken your manabase with another colour, why not play actual removal rather than bounce?

against zoo without perish in the board. To my own surprise the match-up was about 50/50. Since then I choose to rely on pyrokinesis alone and zoo being less and less played is not going to change my mind.

This makes sense though as you have an abundance of stingers which can bounce and also block...

Against Merfolk monoU I usually side out discard. I'm a board control deck against a very fast aggro deck so I can't risk topdecking discard when I need goblins to either gain time, deal with the board, or empower my drivers for lethal. However I have to keep the therapies against Ub. It's funny because I can side 4 different ways against merfolk, not considering the other splashes, whether I am against monoU, Ub, on the play or on the draw.
I'm not sure what you mean by moot. But I face these decks regularly, especially maverick which is very popular right now. And perish would be either marginal or completely useless against these decks, while I still have 4 piledrivers in the main that are far from optimal. I think that the survival era underlined how there is a difference between the US and Europe, american players being more inclined to play what is considered the deck with the most raw power, and europeans who prefer metagaming which involves more diversity and evolving trends. It may be because you have regular big tournaments now, so less pet decks in the equation. Also my point is bad if you are not american.^^

moot means they are pointless, or they don't matter. It's pointless to prepare for decks that aren't tier 1 since Goblin's aggro portion should be able to handle them,...

I'm not american, but I still see what you are getting at.

Well squad removing chiasm and tabernacle is a very good step to winning. How many moons effect do you play ? I play 8 squads + ringleaders. How many match-ups blood moon will be as powerful ? None. It is good against landstill, but so is squad. Also your opponent is very likely to fetch basics because of waste and squad is also far better against enchantress or storm combo.
You can prove everything with examples at MTG. Blood moon is good when you have 2+ people playing 43 lands into a 20 players shop tourney. When this configuration happened to me a few month ago, I sleeved 2 blood moons just before the tournament (and as a side note didn't face them^^). So unless that happens again I'll go with the squads.

Good answer. I actually don't run Blood Moons, it was just an example. I don't expect lands much.

I know where our points of views diverge. When I am metagaming, 90% of my metagaming consists of choosing the deck, not a sideboard. The last time I played in tournaments it was in an expected meta of survival, storm combo, and no counterbalance. I chose not to play goblins for obvious reasons nor my other favorite doomsday. Instead I chose to play a deck I only played once (at GP Madrid), reanimator, and made top 8 in both events : the 71 players side event on saturday and the 235 players event on sunday.[/cocky]
If people in this thread can't switch decks for budget reasons and can't borrow one, I understand metagaming with silver bullets in not too big tournaments. But you have to keep in mind when discussing about it that this is not optimal for competitive tournament play.

well, I think if you are stubborn like me, knowing the metagame will help you better prepare your sideboard. I don't like the idea of sswitching decks because the environment is too harsh for it. I feel a Tier 1 deck should be able to handle it, although players a lot better than I would beg to differ.

[Lejay]

I do not feel that Tarmogoyf is the creature I fear the most. I would say Rhox War Monk is as it has a big butt and can gain life making the race very difficult. Against my Goblin deck, goyfs are at most a 2/3 unless my opponent puts his own stuff in the yard...

Well a 2/3 or a 3/4 goyf in the first 3 turns doesn't really matter as you don't have 3/3s in your deck, at least at this stage. The important thing is that it is coming down one turn earlier, is more difficult to block (pildedriver handles RWM) and will grow in the future turns. And in these futures turns it will be more difficult do kill the goyf with sparksmith or gempalm.
Also my example was kind of general about turn 2 goyf turn 3 knight. This is valid against bant but also zoo or the rock which is definitively a DTB.

What i mean is, you can play around their tutors, but their tutors can play around your discard on their silverbullets. Yes mystical tutor is banned but Enlightened Tutor and the one you mentioned Sterling Grove are still in the format.

Ok. But even in this case they still have to resolve it next turn which is not always possible thanks to port and waste.

Yes I am monored by choice, but it's not my deck in question right now, it's your's. I feel that if you are going to go through the trouble of weaken your manabase with another colour, why not play actual removal rather than bounce?

If you only consider bounce vs removal it looks like removal is better. But this is targeted bounce versus edict effect where the targeted bounce has the potential to be targeted removal + that can deal damage, time walk freely out of a vial, that can be uncounterable and played as an instant, that is synergistic with gempalm, etc...
So this is far from being black and white here. I made the uncommon choice of not playing warren weirding after weakening my mana base but I really feel it is all in all the best one.

well, I think if you are stubborn like me, knowing the metagame will help you better prepare your sideboard. I don't like the idea of sswitching decks because the environment is too harsh for it. I feel a Tier 1 deck should be able to handle it, although players a lot better than I would beg to differ.

Yes a tier 1 deck is supposed to handle the metagame with small adaptations in the sb or the main deck. But goblins was no longer a deck to beat in this metagame and I prefer to opt for the solution with the overall best expectation. Facing the decks I faced in these events (combo, burn, zoo and survival mainly) I really don't think I would have been able to top8 twice with goblins whatever my adjustments were.

[Lorenzo767]

More i Test less i know what to play on my Sideboard...Tsk i can't make up my mind about wich side play...i posted two times my decklist... i need to build a sideboard that could be used in a various and unknown metagame, where i think i could meet a large number of Rogue Deck...

[jrw1985]

More i Test less i know what to play on my Sideboard...Tsk i can't make up my mind about wich side play...i posted two times my decklist... i need to build a sideboard that could be used in a various and unknown metagame, where i think i could meet a large number of Rogue Deck...

I checked out your decklist.
First, i would cut Wort and run a 4th Gempalm. Wort just is too damn slow, and Gempalm is simply amazing. It should always be a 4-of.

SB-
4 Tormod's Crypt (OR 2 Crypt and 2 Faerie Macabre)
4 Chalice of the Void (Or 2 Chalice and 2 Cabal Therapy)
4 Pyrokinesis (Or a combination of Pyro and Perish, but no more than 2 Perish)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

Goblin King isn't that good, so i cut him entirely from your side. I think you want to run 4 pieces of graveyard hate instead of 3, since Dredge is one of these decks you really need to mull into hate against. I prefer Chalice over Therapy because it slows down combo without slowing you down, and it can be played turn 1 for 0 without disrupting your board development. Therapy is a good card, but it's really better against control than combo (since it can grab ALL the FoWs from your opponents' hands [not that I would side it in for that, but that's how Cabal Therapy is usaully used in other decks- generally combo decks like Aluren, SurvivalOoze, Dredge]). Perish shouldn't be a 3 of. You'd much rather run Pyrokinesis because it's better against Goblins, Merfolk, Painter's Servant, blah blah blah, and it can be played on turn 1 for 0. Perish can only be played turn 3+, so while there might still be room for 1 or 2 in your side, I'd stick with Pyro generally. K Grip is very good. I used to run Rbg too, and I always played around my Taigas G1 and fetched into them G2 as needed. This produced a lot of surprise from my opponents that weren't even thinking about the possibility of me playing enchantment removal after G1.

[jin]

More i Test less i know what to play on my Sideboard...Tsk i can't make up my mind about wich side play...i posted two times my decklist... i need to build a sideboard that could be used in a various and unknown metagame, where i think i could meet a large number of Rogue Deck...

It could also be because of your sideboarding method. I think sometimes it's good to read some reports so you know how you sideboard differently compared to other people. I agree with many of the changes jrw1985 suggests though.

I'm also skeptical about kiki-jiki. I think there was a discussion about him last year. Seige-gang just seems better.

Well a 2/3 or a 3/4 goyf in the first 3 turns doesn't really matter as you don't have 3/3s in your deck, at least at this stage. The important thing is that it is coming down one turn earlier, is more difficult to block (pildedriver handles RWM) and will grow in the future turns. And in these futures turns it will be more difficult do kill the goyf with sparksmith or gempalm.
Also my example was kind of general about turn 2 goyf turn 3 knight. This is valid against bant but also zoo or the rock which is definitively a DTB.
Ok. But even in this case they still have to resolve it next turn which is not always possible thanks to port and waste.

It doesn't gain life. I'll still tank it or chump it. Yeah KOTR and goyf together is scary, but that's largely due to KOTR. The board shouldn't get so out of hand anyway. I don't think a Zoo player will have the balls to tap out against Goblins. Those that do usually lose them.

If you only consider bounce vs removal it looks like removal is better. But this is targeted bounce versus edict effect where the targeted bounce has the potential to be targeted removal + that can deal damage, time walk freely out of a vial, that can be uncounterable and played as an instant, that is synergistic with gempalm, etc...
So this is far from being black and white here. I made the uncommon choice of not playing warren weirding after weakening my mana base but I really feel it is all in all the best one.

Yeah stinger has a lot of merits.

[Lorenzo767]

I checked out your decklist.
First, i would cut Wort and run a 4th Gempalm. Wort just is too damn slow, and Gempalm is simply amazing. It should always be a 4-of.

SB-
4 Tormod's Crypt (OR 2 Crypt and 2 Faerie Macabre)
4 Chalice of the Void (Or 2 Chalice and 2 Cabal Therapy)
4 Pyrokinesis (Or a combination of Pyro and Perish, but no more than 2 Perish)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

Goblin King isn't that good, so i cut him entirely from your side. I think you want to run 4 pieces of graveyard hate instead of 3, since Dredge is one of these decks you really need to mull into hate against. I prefer Chalice over Therapy because it slows down combo without slowing you down, and it can be played turn 1 for 0 without disrupting your board development. Therapy is a good card, but it's really better against control than combo (since it can grab ALL the FoWs from your opponents' hands [not that I would side it in for that, but that's how Cabal Therapy is usaully used in other decks- generally combo decks like Aluren, SurvivalOoze, Dredge]). Perish shouldn't be a 3 of. You'd much rather run Pyrokinesis because it's better against Goblins, Merfolk, Painter's Servant, blah blah blah, and it can be played on turn 1 for 0. Perish can only be played turn 3+, so while there might still be room for 1 or 2 in your side, I'd stick with Pyro generally. K Grip is very good. I used to run Rbg too, and I always played around my Taigas G1 and fetched into them G2 as needed. This produced a lot of surprise from my opponents that weren't even thinking about the possibility of me playing enchantment removal after G1.

As i said in another post Kiki and Wort are two card on doubt, the could be a Bomb at the same thime they can be too slow...But Kiki could be alone a winning condition if i have in play any one of Ringleader,Matron or Siege-Gang..
About the side, i agree with you about the 4 Graveyard Hate, but i think could be better to play 3 Krosan Grip instead of 2, ok it's a bit slow but it's really great and also play the third color that give less stabilyt to my mana base just for 2+1 card i think it's not the best...
Pyrokinesis without doubt it's a great card but i fear more deck like zoo then mirror or merfolk...
So Maybe i Could Try something like 4 Tormod 4 Chalice 3 Perish 3 Krosan Grip 1 Tin Street...
What do you think of Earwig Squad? I tested it a few and i think it's a good card but in the MU where it can be used (first of all Combo) it would be too slow...
Chalice is a good option, i can use it of course vs storm combo ( setting it at 0 or 1) or vs Zoo (if i set it a 1 they lose a lot of spell StP,PtE,Bolt,Nacatl,Lion,Ape,) but maybe be Therapy could be more performative...i don't know i might test...the bigget problem is that i don't know what is the metagame that i could find at the tournament because i'm new of the format and here in my zone this fantastic format is not really famous...
Ah, the last thing: What do you think of MWM i read a lot of different opinion...

[jrw1985]

As i said in another post Kiki and Wort are two card on doubt, the could be a Bomb at the same thime they can be too slow...But Kiki could be alone a winning condition if i have in play any one of Ringleader,Matron or Siege-Gang..
About the side, i agree with you about the 4 Graveyard Hate, but i think could be better to play 3 Krosan Grip instead of 2, ok it's a bit slow but it's really great and also play the third color that give less stabilyt to my mana base just for 2+1 card i think it's not the best...
Pyrokinesis without doubt it's a great card but i fear more deck like zoo then mirror or merfolk...
So Maybe i Could Try something like 4 Tormod 4 Chalice 3 Perish 3 Krosan Grip 1 Tin Street...
What do you think of Earwig Squad? I tested it a few and i think it's a good card but in the MU where it can be used (first of all Combo) it would be too slow...
Chalice is a good option, i can use it of course vs storm combo ( setting it at 0 or 1) or vs Zoo (if i set it a 1 they lose a lot of spell StP,PtE,Bolt,Nacatl,Lion,Ape,) but maybe be Therapy could be more performative...i don't know i might test...the bigget problem is that i don't know what is the metagame that i could find at the tournament because i'm new of the format and here in my zone this fantastic format is not really famous...
Ah, the last thing: What do you think of MWM i read a lot of different opinion...

On the Zoo match: Don't be afraid! You don't need to make beating Zoo the be-all and end-all of your sideboard. Zoo isn't that bad of a match. Start off by eating the first 10 points of damage while you build your horde. Then start using your gempalms to burn out his guys and double or triple block his attackers to put creatures in his graveyard. It doesn't matter if you're getting 2 or 3-for-1ed because you will draw a shit-ton of cards from your Matrons, Ringleaders, Gempalms, seige-Gangs, and MWM. Zoo can't draw cards so you will win the battle of attrition. Just make sure you don't dip too far below 10 life. Zoo can easily burn you out if you're at 7 life or less. When I sideboard against Zoo i usually take out Piledrivers and side in removal (Pyrokinesis, Perish). Piledriver is always a removal magnet, so just siding him out is a pretty easy choice. MWM shines against Zoo because it pumps your Gempalms and puts a lotta chumpers into play to keep you above that critical 10 life. Pyrokinesis is also awesome against Zoo because it can blast Lavamancer, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Figure of Destiny... you know, guys Perish is useless against. So it's not all a Perish party, and I think you shouldn't rely so completely on that one card.

Earwig Squad- I've gone back and forth. I initially thought it was great againt combo, but then it dawned on me that he can't hit cards in hand. That makes him pretty useless against ANT/TES. He's also pretty slow. Best case scenario, you play him turn 2 (Lackey, Warchief, Earwig prowl). That makes him pretty bad against Belcher too. He really shines in control matchups though, when he strips their deck of Moat, E Plagues, or Jitte. Unfortunately, that's a pretty conditional application. Since he only hits 3 cards you can't really strip their deck of an essential combo anyway, so it makes him of limited usefulness against decks like Show and Tell, Painter's Servant, Aluren and what-have-you. So I don't feel the need to run him anymore. I'd rather just have the Chalices to guarantee locking out the free artifact mana on T1.

In summation:
Chalice good
Pyrokinesis good
Perish ok
Earwig ok
MWM good

[jin]

As i said in another post Kiki and Wort are two card on doubt, the could be a Bomb at the same thime they can be too slow...But Kiki could be alone a winning condition if i have in play any one of Ringleader,Matron or Siege-Gang..

Ah, the last thing: What do you think of MWM i read a lot of different opinion...

Sorry, I didn't read your previous thread. That doesn't sound like Kiki-jiki alone, it sounds like Kiki-jiki with a Ringleader, Matron or Seige-Gang. To parody you: Seige-Gang alone is a winning condition.

MWM is good in an aggressive metagame. He can block and stall. He might even draw removal if you are lucky making him card advantage.

[Lorenzo767]

On the Zoo match: Don't be afraid! You don't need to make beating Zoo the be-all and end-all of your sideboard. Zoo isn't that bad of a match. Start off by eating the first 10 points of damage while you build your horde. Then start using your gempalms to burn out his guys and double or triple block his attackers to put creatures in his graveyard. It doesn't matter if you're getting 2 or 3-for-1ed because you will draw a shit-ton of cards from your Matrons, Ringleaders, Gempalms, seige-Gangs, and MWM. Zoo can't draw cards so you will win the battle of attrition. Just make sure you don't dip too far below 10 life. Zoo can easily burn you out if you're at 7 life or less. When I sideboard against Zoo i usually take out Piledrivers and side in removal (Pyrokinesis, Perish). Piledriver is always a removal magnet, so just siding him out is a pretty easy choice. MWM shines against Zoo because it pumps your Gempalms and puts a lotta chumpers into play to keep you above that critical 10 life. Pyrokinesis is also awesome against Zoo because it can blast Lavamancer, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Figure of Destiny... you know, guys Perish is useless against. So it's not all a Perish party, and I think you shouldn't rely so completely on that one card.

Earwig Squad- I've gone back and forth. I initially thought it was great againt combo, but then it dawned on me that he can't hit cards in hand. That makes him pretty useless against ANT/TES. He's also pretty slow. Best case scenario, you play him turn 2 (Lackey, Warchief, Earwig prowl). That makes him pretty bad against Belcher too. He really shines in control matchups though, when he strips their deck of Moat, E Plagues, or Jitte. Unfortunately, that's a pretty conditional application. Since he only hits 3 cards you can't really strip their deck of an essential combo anyway, so it makes him of limited usefulness against decks like Show and Tell, Painter's Servant, Aluren and what-have-you. So I don't feel the need to run him anymore. I'd rather just have the Chalices to guarantee locking out the free artifact mana on T1.

In summation:
Chalice good
Pyrokinesis good
Perish ok
Earwig ok
MWM good

I will Try Chalice and Pyrokinesis...and see what happen!
About Earwig i think we have the same opinion..i will maybe try it again but i think i will not use it on the ultimate build ^^

Sorry, I didn't read your previous thread. That doesn't sound like Kiki-jiki alone, it sounds like Kiki-jiki with a Ringleader, Matron or Seige-Gang. To parody you: Seige-Gang alone is a winning condition.

MWM is good in an aggressive metagame. He can block and stall. He might even draw removal if you are lucky making him card advantage.

LOL :D Ok, i overdo with the description of Kiki.
For what about MWM i will decide in base of what is the metagame i will find.
Another doubt it's if play 22 o 23 land, because teorically 22 it's ok but sometimes i had some problem of Screw, and i also need a good number of land drop to flood the filed with the Green Killer xD
I also want to know what u think is the best between Kiki and Worth ( i know they are both slow)...

Ofter some little test i think i will leave Kiki for 1 Skirk prospector and maybe 1 Chieftain for the 4th Gempalm, i will continue to test Worth, in mirro it can win alone by recursion of EVERYTHING in particular gempalm...but i will see

Another question is about the graveyard hate:
Is better Tormod's/relic or Leyline of the void???