[Deck] Dredge

[Digital Devil]

C'on guys! Are you beeing serious in the last posts??

Unluckily for this thread's quality, yes. I'm sorry if I made those kind of questions, but I was trying to find an alternate way to win against Tribal decks and Zoo, seeing I occasionally scoop because when I reanimate a 20/20 GGT it tends to be blocked for several turns, until my opponent finds his
removal/bounce/whatever, and Ancestor's Chosen suffers from the same problem, although returning it makes me feel safe from harm. This basically happens only G2 and eventually G3, which are slower games, when I don't have the Breakthrough/Coliseum to go all-in and mill my library before my opponent plays his hate. I was thinking about what you said and I just realised one thing: Iona performs almost the same role I would play Hellion for. I wanted to play that creature because it cleared away blockers and made possible for me to attack. Well, Iona actually flies, and I don't have to waste additional slots since I play 1x maindeck. My bad.


P.S. - To avoid wasting DTB Forum's space with useless replies just like this and my previous posts, do you think Ancestor's Chosen + Iona is a bit overkill, against aggro? Should I keep both of them as reanimable targets?

[Ozymandias]

If they lead with relic, and you can answer with tribe or Imp, they will need to keep one mana open for quite some time unless they want you to role them. So having a virtual stone rain is pretty good. Meanwhile you have a few turns to draw action. Since you didn't keep a hand without a dredger, that means you've got at leaat 12 outs (at least 9 dredgers and at least 3 grudges) to make them pop the relic, plus whatever is in your hand. Good odds for any Greek.

[Anusien]

The answer is to not keep hands with 4 blanks. You shouldn't snap keep hands like "City of Brass, Tireless Tribe, Troll, 4 blanks".

The goal is ideally to either have to find an early Grudge to kill Relic or have them get nervous and blow Relic (like trying to hit your first Dredge card or stop some Narcomoebas). Then you pitch another Troll, cast the Careful Study or Breakthrough or Coliseum you've been sandbagging, and blow them out. (In some cases it's right to hold back Coliseum to not expose it prematurely to Wasteland).

The great thing about Imp/Tribe is that you can keep Dredge cards in your hand. If they try to stop you Dredging, you can pitch another card and keep going. If they try to hit you after you've Dredged to stop Bridge from Below or Narcomoeba, you've just Dredged, and therefore can just pitch the dredger after the Crypt and keep going. This is why Imp and Tribe are so important.

[Serbitar]

The answer is to not keep hands with 4 blanks. You shouldn't snap keep hands like "City of Brass, Tireless Tribe, Troll, 4 blanks".

Sure, there are more optimal hands, but I have a hard time to imagine mulliganing such a hand. The odds to get "5cLand, Imp/Tribe, Dredger + X" on 6 seem rather slim. It is also a judgement call whether your opponent should try to hit your first dredger or try to get 'more value' out of his hatecard. In my experience, people tend to sit on their Crypt/Relic more often than not.

[Bongo]

What do you think about keeping the deck straight UB? Currently I'm trying the following manabase:

4 USea
4 Watery Grace
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Fetchland
1 Dakmor Salvage

I'm only running two Fetches to minimize the vulnerability to Stifle. The singleton Salvage is there to dredge up in case you need the second mana. I also like it that it increases the Dredge count without taking up slots.

Sure, you lose Tireless Tribe and a host of sideboard cards, but are those really needed? I've been testing Hapless Researcher instead of Tribe, and he's been pretty good. Firestorm can be replaced with Sickening Dreams, and instead of the artifact destruction I'm running Null Rod and Pithing Needle.

What do you think?

[SHABOOGS]

IMHO Tireless Tribes, Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, etc. is currently irreplaceable. Sickening Dreams and Null Rod have a CMC of 2 which I think can't be consistently played with the current dredge mana base. There's a recent channelfireball article that altered the current manabase and used dual lands but the colors are BUG so that Claim and Grudge can still be used. I'm not completely sold on the idea but I'm still waiting for the next article.

[Anusien]

What do you think about keeping the deck straight UB?

What do you gain? Seems like nothing.

Sure, there are more optimal hands, but I have a hard time to imagine mulliganing such a hand. The odds to get "5cLand, Imp/Tribe, Dredger + X" on 6 seem rather slim. It is also a judgement call whether your opponent should try to hit your first dredger or try to get 'more value' out of his hatecard. In my experience, people tend to sit on their Crypt/Relic more often than not.

Game 1 I would absolutely mulligan that hand. Games 2 and 3 I would probably still mulligan that hand. If you're afraid to mulligan, switch decks. Not only are some of those cards blanks, but they're actively worse in your hand than in your deck. Hands with Narcomoeba and especially without two lands are just so awful.

[Bongo]

What do you gain? Seems like nothing.

The pain from City of Brass and Tarnished Citadel has been relevant, especially in post-board games. Also, I didn't like Gemstone and Undiscovered Paradise, as they don't allow you to play an attrition based game very well. Even simple stuff like paying for Daze is a lot harder with an Undiscovered Paradise. Alexander Shearer voiced similar concerns in his article, and I can reaffirm that I was having similar problems.

My idea was that you get additional mana stability with a two-color manabase. I don't really know if it's worth it, that's why I posted in this thread, to hear the opinion's of other Ichorid pilots. I kinda miss Tireless Tribe, but Nature's Claim and Firestorm not so much.

[Izor]

The pain from City of Brass and Tarnished Citadel has been relevant, especially in post-board games. Also, I didn't like Gemstone and Undiscovered Paradise, as they don't allow you to play an attrition based game very well. Even simple stuff like paying for Daze is a lot harder with an Undiscovered Paradise. Alexander Shearer voiced similar concerns in his article, and I can reaffirm that I was having similar problems.

My idea was that you get additional mana stability with a two-color manabase. I don't really know if it's worth it, that's why I posted in this thread, to hear the opinion's of other Ichorid pilots. I kinda miss Tireless Tribe, but Nature's Claim and Firestorm not so much.

A UB mana base brings more disadvantages than advantages. Getting damage each time you tap a land is annoying, but we usually lose very few games because of that. I've often managed to beat Burn decks when Tarnished was my only land. Oh, and you're right on Paradise. That card is not good for obvious reasons.

So the concerns are about longer games right? Well the problem is that we simply need 5 colors imo. We could play Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim. We could also play Needles over Grudge, although that's already a hard blow. But the main reason is Tireless Tribe, which is easily one of the best cards in the whole deck. I would never ever play less than 4 of those. I would even play a 5c mana base if Tribes was the only non-B and non-U card. It's just too good.

Sure, there are more optimal hands, but I have a hard time to imagine mulliganing such a hand. The odds to get "5cLand, Imp/Tribe, Dredger + X" on 6 seem rather slim. It is also a judgement call whether your opponent should try to hit your first dredger or try to get 'more value' out of his hatecard. In my experience, people tend to sit on their Crypt/Relic more often than not.

With 15 lands (11 of which rainbow), 12 discard outlets (with Cabal Therapy and Breakthrough as emergency backups) and 12 Dredgerd it happens quite often and allows us to mulligan aggressively. I think it's not exaggerated to say that proper mulliganing with this deck is one of the most important skills one has to learn.

[Ozymandias]

What do you think about keeping the deck straight UB? Currently I'm trying the following manabase:

4 USea
4 Watery Grace
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Fetchland
1 Dakmor Salvage

I'm only running two Fetches to minimize the vulnerability to Stifle. The singleton Salvage is there to dredge up in case you need the second mana. I also like it that it increases the Dredge count without taking up slots.

Sure, you lose Tireless Tribe and a host of sideboard cards, but are those really needed? I've been testing Hapless Researcher instead of Tribe, and he's been pretty good. Firestorm can be replaced with Sickening Dreams, and instead of the artifact destruction I'm running Null Rod and Pithing Needle.

What do you think?

No. Tribe is a godsend for this deck, for reasons Anusien talked about above. Salvage is terrible, especially because it is soo bad versus wasteland. Firestorm is an instant, and grudge can be dredged into. Needle is terrible nowadays, and you are losing ray of revelation. Your manabase is just as wasteable as before, plus you now lose to Lord of atlantis racing you. In summary, No.

[frogboy]

The pain from City of Brass and Tarnished Citadel has been relevant, especially in post-board games. Also, I didn't like Gemstone and Undiscovered Paradise, as they don't allow you to play an attrition based game very well. Even simple stuff like paying for Daze is a lot harder with an Undiscovered Paradise. Alexander Shearer voiced similar concerns in his article, and I can reaffirm that I was having similar problems.

My idea was that you get additional mana stability with a two-color manabase. I don't really know if it's worth it, that's why I posted in this thread, to hear the opinion's of other Ichorid pilots. I kinda miss Tireless Tribe, but Nature's Claim and Firestorm not so much.

Shearer's mana base is actually less stable. For example, sometimes you draw Bayou.

[Bongo]

Ok, thanks for the feedback guys. I can see the advantages of the 5c manabase and try to roll with it in the future (mainly because of Tribe, which I've been missing).

However, my concern remains that the manabase is painful and I've lost a few games to it. In particular, I don't like Tarnished Citadel (and Gemstone Mine to a lesser extent). Is there any better option?

[Ozymandias]

Postboard, you can bring in chosen in the matchups where it matters. Beyond that, I guess play tighter?

[Izor]

However, my concern remains that the manabase is painful and I've lost a few games to it. In particular, I don't like Tarnished Citadel (and Gemstone Mine to a lesser extent). Is there any better option?

Unfortunately there isn't. Tarnished is a bad card, but other rainbow lands are worse for us. Just to name a few: Forbidden Orchard, Thran Quarry, Tendo Ice Bridge, Forsaken City

They're horrible, right?

[Anusien]

Yes.

Don't keep mono-Tarnished Citadel hands against Zoo if that hand needs to tap Citadel a bunch of times. Although I like having Citadel as my second land, because it taps for colorless pain free (I do this a fair amount).

[Benobi]

Hi all, I'm a long-time Standard/Extended player trying to break into Legacy with Dredge; I have the deck built and I understand most of the basic theory behind how to play various matchups, but in practice I'm still "rough around the edges," so I was hoping to get some veteran advice.

Here's a situation that came up for me this past week in a tourney: I'm on the play, and I go turn 1 PImp, turn 2 dredge a ton with Cephalid Coliseum; My board is PImp, 1 Narcomoeba, and I have 2 Bridges, 2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Dread Return, and 1 Golgari Grave Troll in my 'yard; assuming I know nothing about my opponent's deck (first turn was fetchland-go), what's the play here? Do I pitch one or both guys to Therapies to make Zombies? If so, do I pitch those Zombies to bring back the Troll right away?

Thanks in advance!

[Parax]

I would wait a turn so you have a chance to happen across something while you therapy. Example i'll just randomly name LED against belcher if i go first on games 2-3 becasue it cripples the deck. Then you can look at their hand and actually pick something. If you know nothing, then its a blind shot in the dark.

I'm not an experienced player with dredge either but this is what i'd do.

[Digital Devil]

Here's a situation that came up for me this past week in a tourney: I'm on the play, and I go turn 1 PImp, turn 2 dredge a ton with Cephalid Coliseum; My board is PImp, 1 Narcomoeba, and I have 2 Bridges, 2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Dread Return, and 1 Golgari Grave Troll in my 'yard; assuming I know nothing about my opponent's deck (first turn was fetchland-go), what's the play here? Do I pitch one or both guys to Therapies to make Zombies? If so, do I pitch those Zombies to bring back the Troll right away?

Thanks in advance!

I would sacrifice Narcomoeba to name Force of Will. This way you'll have 2x zombies and Putrid Imp. Sacrificing them to DR Troll hypotethically gives you two more zombies, and if you hit your opponent's countermagic (or your opponent doesn't play any) and also see no removal - say, your opponent is playing UGR Dreadstill - you have an additional Cabal Therapy in your graveyard as well as 2 more virtual damage on the battlefield. Of course if you see removal you'll have to flashback the second Therapy by sacrificing Putrid Imp, but it's pretty obvious. Alas, I'm a terrible player, so I'm almost sure there's something better to do with those cards.

[Ozymandias]

I would recommend a blind therapy, saccing Narcomoeba, for Brainstorm versus fetch, go; Brainstorm is exceptionally common, and has a nasty habit of fucking future therapies.when critical cards show up. It also allows you to play against your one "Kryptonite scenario, where your opponent storms off; brainstorm is the only instant you need to fear in that scenario, as they would have chanted you already. Depending on what you see, you will then crack a second therapy, sacking imp and discarding your relevant cards in hand before you do, and then, if the coast is clear, DR golgari Grave troll to finish them,

[Anusien]

How big will the Troll be? Generally I find it's better to go ahead and make the Troll than to wait; if you can Dread Return, you probably should (assuming the way is clear).

If your Imp resolved, they probably don't have FoW. My first Therapy would be for Swords.