[Archetype] CounterTop

[Shimi]

Why don't you just play Wall of Roots?

I want to kill my opponent.. why should I be playing Wall of Roots?

[jin]

I want to kill my opponent.. why should I be playing Wall of Roots?

it's merely a sarcastic way to question the need for a goyf tutor..when you can play other walls..

[DragoFireheart]

it's merely a sarcastic way to question the need for a goyf tutor..when you can play other walls..

In the defense of the Goyf tutor, it tutors a wall that can attack and kill things it blocks.

:P

[jin]

In the defense of the Goyf tutor, it tutors a wall that can attack and kill things it blocks.

:P

yes I'm sorry, how about Vinlasher Kudzu or Werebear.. they block and attack... O.o

[SMR0079]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=36240

In the more controlling Prozak inspired versions such as the above, it may be worth considering Wrath of God in the sideboard to improve your Goblins/Junk match up. I would have preferred them to the Hydroblasts in the last two SCG events.

I never really likes Wrath before because it sucked so bad against Merfolk, but their numbers are down and you have other tools to fight them. I also added Path x2 to the main which really helps to ensure you draw spot removal in the early game.

In regards to Wall of roots in the Natural Order version, it's actually better then Pridemage for what you are tryingn to do - survive any early rush to stabilize before you set up the lock and resolve Natural Order.

[jin]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=36240

In the more controlling Prozak inspired versions such as the above, it may be worth considering Wrath of God in the sideboard to improve your Goblins/Junk match up. I would have preferred them to the Hydroblasts in the last two SCG events.

I never really likes Wrath before because it sucked so bad against Merfolk, but their numbers are down and you have other tools to fight them. I also added Path x2 to the main which really helps to ensure you draw spot removal in the early game.

In regards to Wall of roots in the Natural Order version, it's actually better then Pridemage for what you are tryingn to do - survive any early rush to stabilize before you set up the lock and resolve Natural Order.

Or Nevinyrral's disk so you can destroy Affinity and Vial's .. LOL, yay Landstill is back... Don't worry Jace will survive.

[Kratosso]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=36240

In the more controlling Prozak inspired versions such as the above, it may be worth considering Wrath of God in the sideboard to improve your Goblins/Junk match up. I would have preferred them to the Hydroblasts in the last two SCG events.

I never really likes Wrath before because it sucked so bad against Merfolk, but their numbers are down and you have other tools to fight them. I also added Path x2 to the main which really helps to ensure you draw spot removal in the early game.

In regards to Wall of roots in the Natural Order version, it's actually better then Pridemage for what you are tryingn to do - survive any early rush to stabilize before you set up the lock and resolve Natural Order.

Our problem are fast aggro-decks, here in Italy there are so many Zoo!
We can try 2x Wrath of God, in this deck list, post side we get 4x Sword to Plowshares + 2x Wrath of God + 2x Perish and 2x Eng. Explosives = 10 (6 mass removal) , I think that's enough.

The list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator


4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard Find a Place for 2x Wrath of god?
2 Meddling Mage (jolly, against combo's)
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Valtrix]

Why not play the firespout countertop lists as of late? They seem a lot more equipped to deal with aggro. If you really want to hate on aggro run 4x pyroclasm in your board, and I think that gives you a lot of good answers to the aggro decks of today's meta, especially if you run engineered explosives as your versatile removal of choice. While I love black, I don't find that it adds a whole lot. I am always underwhelmed by confidant's ability to actually win the game (and he's awful against aggro, by the way). The sideboard options also seem fairly limited as well, though some options like extirpate and engineered plague can be fairly strong.

[jin]

Why not play the firespout countertop lists as of late? They seem a lot more equipped to deal with aggro. If you really want to hate on aggro run 4x pyroclasm in your board, and I think that gives you a lot of good answers to the aggro decks of today's meta, especially if you run engineered explosives as your versatile removal of choice. While I love black, I don't find that it adds a whole lot. I am always underwhelmed by confidant's ability to actually win the game (and he's awful against aggro, by the way). The sideboard options also seem fairly limited as well, though some options like extirpate and engineered plague can be fairly strong.

Red cannot kill KOTR, Rhox War Monk, Goyf, Terravore, Emrakul, Progenitus, etc. Now that the format's aggro creatures are bigger, Firespout is becoming as useful as Pyroclasm. You'll find that it won't kill Merfolks, or Angels or Etched Champions where as Black can.

Black has a way more hateful sideboard against Green (which hits several of the creatures listed earlier) and way more versatile removal. It's ability to hate out the yard is also stronger.

Dark Confidant is also one of the best draw card in Legacy along with Ad Nauseam, Jace 2.0 and Standstill, etc.

[rancOr_]

Firespout is just too good not to run atm imo.If it's not main then side. It gives a fighting chance against merfolks,goblins and is also really good vs zoo. As a bonus u can play REB as additional removal vs merfolk and a very nice card in the control mirrors.
I understand the value of black,but for now I'd play red for sure.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

None of those threats reasonably justifies black over red as a 4th color. Knight and goyf (and Terravore) are answerable by Swords to Plowshares. It's an instant for W that just exiles your problem. That's what it's always been for. Emrakul is already answerable in blue and white, Progenitus is barely played anymore but still answerable in white and RWM doesn't actually deserve an answer, though red does also have the cheapest one alongside white, strictly better than black because black's is a sorcery.

The problem cards are not green, they're blue and red and tribal. Firespout handles them insanely well. Merfolk needs 3 lords out to survive one without having taken combat damage or getting one plowed. So yes, in magicchristmasland (for them), Merfolk survive Firespout. Granted, Eplague is better against Goblins, but red offers so much more against every other deck that an extremely trivial loss of value from Eplague to Firespout in one matchup is more than made up for by added utility in everything else.

Let me not seem biased here, though. Big Boy Bobby Brown is easily the best creature ever printed. But he doesn't actually do anything against your bad matchups and red already supplements your good/ even ones. Now that Jace exists, the only reason to run black is nostalgia or personal preference. Don't try and make it out like the two are even.

[Tinefol]

And there's always option of not splashing the 4th color. I'm fine with what Bant colors can offer and manabase/color stability.

[Rico Suave]

Firespout isn't that good against Merfolk. Firespout doesn't answer Mutavault, nor does it answer the creatures they are undoubtedly sand-bagging in their hand either.

Consider that Merfolk can easily produce 8+ damage per turn with just Mutavault, Lord, and Silvergill Adept. Your Firespout only removes 2 of those creatures, not to mention the fact one of their creatures cantripped in the process.

If you don't Firespout? They EOT Vial in another Lord and swing for 14. If you do Firespout? They still EOT Vial that Lord in and swing for 5 anyway.

The only magicchristmasland I see is the one where CB/Top players think Firespout is going to let them beat Merfolk. Because it hasn't in the past, and it still doesn't right now.

[wh4tever]

Hey Guys.
Aehm, you are all talking about "more or less" control shells, but what about a real control build?!
I like to play CB/Top, but really control like.
Here is my current list, which is running well. My Problem is (after SotF banning): Gobbos. Peacekeeper are not good enough and Moat only vs Lists without g-Splah.
// Lands
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta

// Spells
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Spell Snare
3 Vindicate
2 Lim-Dul's Vault

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Peacekeeper
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 1 Moat

later hopefully more, gotta go now :/

gl+hf

[Nameless Two]

Engineered Plague maybe?

[Tinefol]

Firespout isn't that good against Merfolk. Firespout doesn't answer Mutavault, nor does it answer the creatures they are undoubtedly sand-bagging in their hand either.

Consider that Merfolk can easily produce 8+ damage per turn with just Mutavault, Lord, and Silvergill Adept. Your Firespout only removes 2 of those creatures, not to mention the fact one of their creatures cantripped in the process.

If you don't Firespout? They EOT Vial in another Lord and swing for 14. If you do Firespout? They still EOT Vial that Lord in and swing for 5 anyway.

The only magicchristmasland I see is the one where CB/Top players think Firespout is going to let them beat Merfolk. Because it hasn't in the past, and it still doesn't right now.

To add: you need 3 mana to cast firespout. one of them red. Also, green, if there's Coralhelm. You need 4, if there's Cursecatcher. Five, if they hold a Daze. Even more, if they also happened to waste your land. Its not a panacea. Most lists run only 3 Spouts.

[jin]

None of those threats reasonably justifies black over red as a 4th color. Knight and goyf (and Terravore) are answerable by Swords to Plowshares. It's an instant for W that just exiles your problem. That's what it's always been for. Emrakul is already answerable in blue and white, Progenitus is barely played anymore but still answerable in white and RWM doesn't actually deserve an answer, though red does also have the cheapest one alongside white, strictly better than black because black's is a sorcery.

The problem cards are not green, they're blue and red and tribal. Firespout handles them insanely well. Merfolk needs 3 lords out to survive one without having taken combat damage or getting one plowed. So yes, in magicchristmasland (for them), Merfolk survive Firespout. Granted, Eplague is better against Goblins, but red offers so much more against every other deck that an extremely trivial loss of value from Eplague to Firespout in one matchup is more than made up for by added utility in everything else.

Let me not seem biased here, though. Big Boy Bobby Brown is easily the best creature ever printed. But he doesn't actually do anything against your bad matchups and red already supplements your good/ even ones. Now that Jace exists, the only reason to run black is nostalgia or personal preference. Don't try and make it out like the two are even.

Dark Confidant draws faster than Jace2. That's why basruption exists. Dark Confidant comes down 2 turns earlier and draws a turn before. Not to mention you should play Dark Confidant along with Jace2 rather than just with Jace2 alone.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Firespout isn't that good against Merfolk. Firespout doesn't answer Mutavault, nor does it answer the creatures they are undoubtedly sand-bagging in their hand either.

Consider that Merfolk can easily produce 8+ damage per turn with just Mutavault, Lord, and Silvergill Adept. Your Firespout only removes 2 of those creatures, not to mention the fact one of their creatures cantripped in the process.

If you don't Firespout? They EOT Vial in another Lord and swing for 14. If you do Firespout? They still EOT Vial that Lord in and swing for 5 anyway.

The only magicchristmasland I see is the one where CB/Top players think Firespout is going to let them beat Merfolk. Because it hasn't in the past, and it still doesn't right now.

I'm really not sure how serious this answer is, but I'll bite assuming it's not a bad troll. So, assume they've got Lord+Silvergill+Mutavault and you've got Firespout. You cast it to 2-for-1 them on the spot, plus now they can't attack with Mutavault if you have any creature out (which you won't lose). That's 0 damage getting through. If they EOT vial a Lord of Atlantis (one of three left), that's 3 damage from the Mutavault only. Any other lord, still 0 assuming you have 1 creature. Assume instead you have StP instead of a creature, that's 2 damage getting through (StP EOT vialed lord, eat 2 from Mutavault).

No, Firespout by itself does not win the matchup in the way that, I don't know, triple Eplague would. But assuming a typical 4c build, Firespout+ Red Blast+ your existing relevant cards puts you at an objectively >50% advantage. Yes, you can create artifical scenarios where Merfolk can plow through a everything you throw at them, where they have all of their Lords of Atlantis' on top of their deck and infinite creatures to sandbag and pitch to their 6 Forces to counter your feeble attempts at staying alive. But realistically, 4c Jacespout has a positive matchup against Merfolk pre and postboard.

From all of the above scenarios, you're even assuming multiples of the same card in a deck with no cantrips, fixing or carddraw while the deck that basically consists of about 1/3 those things will somehow not be able to find a single Firespout plus at least one of 13 other cards postboard, plus anything on top of the single goyf/clique/plow/blast the stock list needs to straight trump Merfolk in the described scenario. In fact, it even needs fewer cards and still wins. Even if you choose to ignore facts, by your own admission Firespouting saves you 9 damage, the difference between 14 and 5. If that's not somehow significant to you, then maybe you should just read rather than comment.

[Rune]

Agree with the above. Firespout doesn't win the matchup on its own, but when you combine it with a few sideboard cards, it becomes almost impossible to lose.


In other news: I got a hold of PV's GP report that people were asking about some time ago because it got randomly deleted. I can upload/send it, if anyone wants ;o

[Rico Suave]

I'm really not sure how serious this answer is, but I'll bite assuming it's not a bad troll. So, assume they've got Lord+Silvergill+Mutavault and you've got Firespout. You cast it to 2-for-1 them on the spot, plus now they can't attack with Mutavault if you have any creature out (which you won't lose). That's 0 damage getting through. If they EOT vial a Lord of Atlantis (one of three left), that's 3 damage from the Mutavault only. Any other lord, still 0 assuming you have 1 creature. Assume instead you have StP instead of a creature, that's 2 damage getting through (StP EOT vialed lord, eat 2 from Mutavault).

No, Firespout by itself does not win the matchup in the way that, I don't know, triple Eplague would. But assuming a typical 4c build, Firespout+ Red Blast+ your existing relevant cards puts you at an objectively >50% advantage. Yes, you can create artifical scenarios where Merfolk can plow through a everything you throw at them, where they have all of their Lords of Atlantis' on top of their deck and infinite creatures to sandbag and pitch to their 6 Forces to counter your feeble attempts at staying alive. But realistically, 4c Jacespout has a positive matchup against Merfolk pre and postboard.

From all of the above scenarios, you're even assuming multiples of the same card in a deck with no cantrips, fixing or carddraw while the deck that basically consists of about 1/3 those things will somehow not be able to find a single Firespout plus at least one of 13 other cards postboard, plus anything on top of the single goyf/clique/plow/blast the stock list needs to straight trump Merfolk in the described scenario. In fact, it even needs fewer cards and still wins. Even if you choose to ignore facts, by your own admission Firespouting saves you 9 damage, the difference between 14 and 5. If that's not somehow significant to you, then maybe you should just read rather than comment.

I was being serious.

Let's get to the heart of the problem. Is Firespout a better plan than what a regular Bant CB/Top deck can produce? Yeah, sure. But it is still a losing plan.

You want a high profile example? Read this:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ol10/welcome#8

I don't know why you think Firespout suddenly makes this a positive match. Have you sat down and played it? It's very disappointing for someone who wants to reliably defeat Merfolk.

Now, Firespout is fine against Goblins. It is effective against Elves, and a number of other decks like WW. But ultimately Merfolk will beat it more often than not, even if you have a slew of spot removal and hate cards to go with it.