[Archetype] CounterTop

[Adan]

Firespout is a fine card, but a good Merfolk player will see it coming and play around it by simply NOT overextending to it as Rico said. It's definitely nice to have, but nothing to rely on, it still takes more to beat Merfolk. It basically revolves around whether you can counter Aether Vial or not because it's exactly the card that makes Firespout, Counterbalance, Countermagic, Jace etc. suck like hell.

The actual keycard in these tempomatchups is still Sensei's Divining Top.

[munkie]

Between Repeal and Firespout, most of the creature decks are a non-issue for 4c Firespout decks. Playing around Firespout doesn't take a "good" Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo player, as holding back dudes and not applying pressure is the easiest way to lose against a control deck. Sure Firespout doesn't kill a lot of creatures is your worse matchups (KoTR, Goyf, Terravore, Tombstalker) Swords to Plowshares does just fine.

[Rico Suave]

Between Repeal and Firespout, most of the creature decks are a non-issue for 4c Firespout decks. Playing around Firespout doesn't take a "good" Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo player, as holding back dudes and not applying pressure is the easiest way to lose against a control deck. Sure Firespout doesn't kill a lot of creatures is your worse matchups (KoTR, Goyf, Terravore, Tombstalker) Swords to Plowshares does just fine.

I think most CB/Top players seem disillusioned.

If Repeal and Firespout make creature decks a non-issue, then why do the Firespout decks keep losing to the creature decks?

[Tinefol]

Between Repeal and Firespout, most of the creature decks are a non-issue for 4c Firespout decks

...if you're not destroyed by Wasteland and color issues. The only common match up where having Firespout (and thus being 4c with its manabase) is a strict plus is Zoo. Everywhere else you're hit by Wastelands/Ports/Daze/SP etc, and you don't have Hierarch/Daze to solidify the early game. Anyways, I'm doing just fine with my Bant take on Countertop. I've tried 4c and I was amazed how horribly awful it played against Merfolk in testing.

[Valtrix]

As a 4c Countertop player playing with firespouts for awhile, firespout/repeal/creature removal does not make creature decks a non-issue. The only way that this removal suite begins to be relevant is if you're gearing for it in your sideboard. I don't mean just the 4th firespout, I mean 6 cards of your board need to deal with creatures. When you can bring in some number of firespouts/engineered explosives/paths(/REBs), then you can really make the creature decks less of a threat. Note that this is less of a threat, and not no threat. Creature decks can always overwhelm you.

That said, not all creature decks are created equal. Having excess removal helps most against zoo, because if their creatures can't kill you then you blank a lot of their cards. It is next most effective against merfolk. Keeping them off lords slows them down a lot, but they have counterspells to deal with things like firespout, as well as standstill/silvergil to recover cards. Goblins? Goblins is an awful matchup. If you're playing something like 4 goyfs/3 Jace as the main win cons, goblins will beat you unless you get only the luckiest of games. They have a relentless creature assault (and can thus sandbag), mogg war marshal is surprisingly annoying to deal with when playing firespout, matrons and ringleaders refill their hands, and haste/vials can keep getting damage in unless you're always ready. They are a control deck against you, and have a very good chance at wearing you down.

So, bringing in lots of removal can make zoo (relatively) easy. That same removal, plus some REBs can improve the Merfolk matchup a lot, but you do still need to worry about them. But for goblins? You're going to need a lot more than that if you're playing a low number of win-conditions, in my opinion. Tools like firespout are great tools to stop you from losing in the short term, but you still need to win in the long term. Creature decks are not as easy to take down as you think. Iif they were, more people would be playing these counterbalance decks in my opinion.

[Shimi]

Goblins? Goblins is an awful matchup. If you're playing something like 4 goyfs/3 Jace as the main win cons, goblins will beat you unless you get only the luckiest of games. They have a relentless creature assault (and can thus sandbag), mogg war marshal is surprisingly annoying to deal with when playing firespout, matrons and ringleaders refill their hands, and haste/vials can keep getting damage in unless you're always ready. They are a control deck against you, and have a very good chance at wearing you down.

That's why I'm testing Green Sun's Zenith as Goyf(6 and 7) and 3 silverbullet guys at board.You should try it.

[Valtrix]

What do you consider silver-bullet green creatures in the goblins matchup? Or do you just mean bullet creatures in general, but running zenith gives you more goyfs against goblins?

[jin]

...if you're not destroyed by Wasteland and color issues. The only common match up where having Firespout (and thus being 4c with its manabase) is a strict plus is Zoo. Everywhere else you're hit by Wastelands/Ports/Daze/SP etc, and you don't have Hierarch/Daze to solidify the early game. Anyways, I'm doing just fine with my Bant take on Countertop. I've tried 4c and I was amazed how horribly awful it played against Merfolk in testing.

How do you deal with the merfolk match up with just BANT? So far I've only come up with extra spot removal with Path to Exile, but then they bring in Kira and it becomes really annoying. Do you use equipment to negate Kira? Thanks for your answer.

[DFY889]

One possible solution to the Goblins matchup is to board Moats. Yeah, they're like $300 each, so a thousand dollar sideboard solution may be less than ideal. If they play Green they might have grips, but mono red or RB has essentially not out to it. How we win through a moat is sort of interesting as well. Generally V-cliques will get edicted or gemplamed, but Jace should be able to ride it out.

It's not as good against Merfolk as it used to be because of Coralhelm, but it still helps a lot, since Merfolk is easier to attrition out over the long game than Goblins.

It's similar for other creature decks, a speedbump, but one that can be overcome. However, Goblin, to my knowledge, really can't beat it without Taigas and grips. In which case you just need to slowroll a three on top, since CB lock should be somewhat easy to assemble once the beatdown ends.

[jin]

One possible solution to the Goblins matchup is to board Moats. Yeah, they're like $300 each, so a thousand dollar sideboard solution may be less than ideal. If they play Green they might have grips, but mono red or RB has essentially not out to it. How we win through a moat is sort of interesting as well. Generally V-cliques will get edicted or gemplamed, but Jace should be able to ride it out.

It's not as good against Merfolk as it used to be because of Coralhelm, but it still helps a lot, since Merfolk is easier to attrition out over the long game than Goblins.

It's similar for other creature decks, a speedbump, but one that can be overcome. However, Goblin, to my knowledge, really can't beat it without Taigas and grips. In which case you just need to slowroll a three on top, since CB lock should be somewhat easy to assemble once the beatdown ends.

Siege-gang Commander > Moat

[Tinefol]

How do you deal with the merfolk match up with just BANT? So far I've only come up with extra spot removal with Path to Exile, but then they bring in Kira and it becomes really annoying. Do you use equipment to negate Kira? Thanks for your answer.

Preboard I'm just playing control, with Shackles and big blockers. Hierarch/Daze ensures that I'm not overrun early game and I just try to survive and establish some locks.

Postboard I add Needles, EE and Paths. Sometimes Dueling Grounds too. Seems to work, though I haven't run into Kira yet. I don't think its a good card to bgring for this match up though.

[Amon Amarth]

Siege-gang Commander > Moat

And most Goblins decks should play at least 1 Sharpshooter main or side which is also pretty good vs Moat.

[jin]

And most Goblins decks should play at least 1 Sharpshooter main or side which is also pretty good vs Moat.

Yeah, I know. I just wanted the dramatic effect and didn't want to cloud the fact that Seige-gang owns Moat.

Preboard I'm just playing control, with Shackles and big blockers. Hierarch/Daze ensures that I'm not overrun early game and I just try to survive and establish some locks.

Postboard I add Needles, EE and Paths. Sometimes Dueling Grounds too. Seems to work, though I haven't run into Kira yet. I don't think its a good card to bgring for this match up though.

I'm surprised you do so well with just Bant. Shackles has been quite bad in testing as Merrow Reejery untaps it. EE I hear is quite good against Merfolk though. As it kills Kira thus validating all of your spot removal again. I try to bring in the Path to Exiles and the Explosives, but I still find Needle difficult to use as Needling Wastelands/Mutavault/Vial slows me down quite a bit. However, I don't play Noble Hierarch, so maybe that is the difference. How much of each do you bring in? I usually play Llawan, Cephalid Empress + EE + Path to Exile, but I still have a tough time without Grim Lavamancer and Pyroblasts.

[useL]

Sorry to interrupt your BANT-discussion here.

First poster after reading alot of CounterTop posts here. I have a question regarding sideboard/maindeck.

I play in a legacy league where there is atleast 30% CBTop with various builds. If I still want to run a CBTop deck, what should I add or remove from this deck to make it even better. The rest of the field concists of Thresh/Zoo/Aggro-decks with wasteland and fast creatures.

Spells: 32
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshare
3x Firespout
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Elspeth Knight-Errant
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Creatures: 6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Vendilion Clique

Lands: 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Plain
1x Karakas
1x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard: 15
2x Pyroblast
2x Red elemental Blast
3x Krosan Grip
1x Hydroblast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Firespout
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pithing Needle


I would also appreciate some help with what I should sideboard out and in against what setups. I got into Legacy about 3 months ago and am still pretty new to its concept. Haven't played Magic actively for 10 years but I try to read alot here on the forum about other deck concepts.

[Tinefol]

Well, they is to not let them overwhelm the board. If they do, you lose no matter what.
Needle doesn't slow you, it slows them. And yeah, Hierarch/Daze is the key to early game. Needle on vial + CB is pretty much a game win in early game.

I usually play 2-3 needle, 1-2 ee, 2 pte, 1 grounds. Peacekeeper also is a good tech, but I don't like it in other matches, so I've dropped him from my sb.

[Shimi]

What do you consider silver-bullet green creatures in the goblins matchup? Or do you just mean bullet creatures in general, but running zenith gives you more goyfs against goblins?

Did not finished my tests but more than 4 Goyfs are really good against goblins, it stalls goblins and finish fast after firespout.
The bullet creatures for me are(qasali, RWM and KotR), and I'm not sure if I should play a trygon or another guy.. as I said i'm just testing things.

PS:Just add a basic forest and be careful with rishadan ports.
I will try to test some match or even play a tournament this or the next weekend.

[jin]

Sorry to interrupt your BANT-discussion here.

First poster after reading alot of CounterTop posts here. I have a question regarding sideboard/maindeck.

I play in a legacy league where there is atleast 30% CBTop with various builds. If I still want to run a CBTop deck, what should I add or remove from this deck to make it even better. The rest of the field concists of Thresh/Zoo/Aggro-decks with wasteland and fast creatures.

Spells: 32
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshare
3x Firespout
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Elspeth Knight-Errant
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Creatures: 6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Vendilion Clique

Lands: 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Plain
1x Karakas
1x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard: 15
2x Pyroblast
2x Red elemental Blast
3x Krosan Grip
1x Hydroblast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Firespout
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pithing Needle


I would also appreciate some help with what I should sideboard out and in against what setups. I got into Legacy about 3 months ago and am still pretty new to its concept. Haven't played Magic actively for 10 years but I try to read alot here on the forum about other deck concepts.

30% CBT?! Maindeck Trygon Preditor!!.. I don't think that's a bad plan.

[median]

…list..

You might want to look at qasali pridemage as well as predator. Pridemage has the advantage of being more aggressive than predator and still dealing with counterbalance.
On a different note, has anyone looked at the new tezzeret in a CB shell? He seems pretty insane with a deck that uses top.

[keys]

With Green Sun's Zenith, what will CounterTop Progenitus look like? Has anyone done any testing with it?

Here's a U/G list I made up, based somewhat on AJ Sacher's deck from SCG Kansas:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
2 Ponder

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor

22 blue spells.
11 green creatures (excluding Progenitus).
20 land.

Sideboard is undetermined, but will likely include more GSZ/NO targets.

I think dropping white is necessary in order to keep the blue and green spell counts high enough. Besides, Progenitus outmatches anything on the ground anyway.

What silver bullets would you include? I know Trygon Predator will be good as a 1-of. Anything else?

I might not want to play 2 Dryad Arbor, but that is subject to testing.

[jin]

You might want to look at qasali pridemage as well as predator. Pridemage has the advantage of being more aggressive than predator and still dealing with counterbalance.
On a different note, has anyone looked at the new tezzeret in a CB shell? He seems pretty insane with a deck that uses top.

I think if he plays Firespout, playing Pridemage would be counter intuitive. If there is a lot of aggro in his metagame as well as CBT, I think going back to Kazuho's Supreme Blue is a viable option.