This is what I'm playing now and it is amazing. It's more like the Deadguy deck + Tarmogoyf than DnT + Black though. No Vindicate, but Scullers, Bob and Thoughtseize.Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Thanks for the suggestions. You're definitely right that I didn't really use the sideboard at all in most matchups. Though the good news is that
those matchups are ones I consider to be in my favour. Against most blue decks, I only need to resolve either vial, teeg or stoneforge mystic
to take control of the game. For this reason I consider them to be pretty strong matchups so I don't think Choke will be necessary.
Thresh typically has a low threat density so I am usually able trade cards with them and beat them off the top, whilst they're still searching for that goyf or clique. They have lots of removal, but I have just as many things they need to remove - especially Mum and Mangara.
Bant aggro is a different story though. I think this matchup can be quite tough. Mum is obviously key, and wastelands can really wreck them. I was lucky enough to have 2 in both games, and managed to mana and colour screw him quite heavily. In this matchup, I don't think Choke will help as much since they are an aggro deck: by the time i drop choke, they should have dropped a hierarch, maybe a goyf or a pridemage. I'd much rather draw a threat against this deck than an Etutor or a choke.
Dueling grounds is an awesome suggestion though, and one i've been mulling over for a while too. I plan on attending a couple more tournies to get a better feel of the meta (the players here have multiple decks and play different ones every week) before adding it in. For now, though, I think the gobbo and merfolk matchup is sufficiently strong, and I'll hold on to the 4th tutor so I can find my hate pieces more frequently against other decks I may not be as strong against.
Hey guys,
I'm trying to tune a monoW list of D+T for an aggro-heavy meta. I'm testing Kitchen Finks but many times I've found it too expensive, as eleven 3-drops (4 Flickerwisp + 3 Mangara + 4 Finks, not counting the O-Rings) seems too much. So, I'm considering Phantom Nomad. He can stall a couple attacks and is excellent carrying a Sword. Bad thing is that he don't kill a Nacatl by himself.
What do you guys think? Is there a better option for beating Zoo?
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
If u really want to tech up vs Zoo MU here is the killer Perimeter Captain, for W, survive all burn, and adding life.
Well, I guess I'd rather use something that attacks. Not putting any kind of pressure seems to go against the deck's strategy.
Phantom Nomad also can be Flickerwisp'ed to get the counters again. I'm also considering other so-so options, like Shaman en-kor (good combat tricks with mom) and Safehold Elite.
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
My suggestion would be to remove O-Ring. I did that a couple of weeks ago and I have never looked back on the decision. That way you can keep the Kitchen Finks (which are just awesome against Zoo) and add in some smaller goodies ( I like the Phantom Nomad idea myself, very interesting).
I feel that the best solution for Zoo is extra removal. I have been using Condemn in that role and I have been essentially happy with it. The trick to beating Zoo is to make it to the middle rounds with a good life total and then take control with your protection stuff and artifacts. Finks comes online late enough that it tends to play into Zoo's hands. You want to spend turn 3 preparing to establish control, so you need the damage mostly stemmed by then with cheaper cards on the first two turns. If you spend 3 mana on your main phase on this card and Zoo points Path to Exile at it at your EOT, you are dead meat. Perimeter Captain actually is a pretty good turn one play in this matchup. But it has to come out of the deck against mostly everything else except Goblins. I like Condemn because it also comes in against much of the field.
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The deck seems like it can support Revokers main deck and Relic Warders side. Revoker is actually good vs combo cuz you can actually name LED and screw them over. Also, it works fine vs show and tell, sneak attack, etc. it's an AS ability, so when you drop it vs countertop they have to use top asap or just have it be a dead card. There is actually very little reason to not MD it. VS zoo and gw taxes u can name pridemage too, LOL.
Also as a side note, I believe it's an awesome T1 in Dragon stompy, it can even allow you to negate a noble hierarch or pre-empt a vial. Sooo many applications, get yours now.
That will be all, for now....
Well, just for information, I've tested all 2-drops I've mentioned (Phantom Nomad, Shaman en-Kor and Safehold Elite) and found all of them underwhelming.
Condemn did a better, specially against Zoo, but I don't like it hitting only attackers.
Burrenton Forge-tender did his job against Goblins. Against Zoo it was only OK.
I'll test Phyrexian Revoker in this slot and see how it goes. Although I don't think he'll be that great against Zoo, his versatility can warrant him a place maindeck.
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
Depending on the build they are running, he can shut down Grim Lavamancer and Knight of the Reliquery.
The best thing he can do against Zoo is shutting down Qasali Pridemage so they'll have hard time dealing with your equipments.
Also, modern Big Zoo lists have plenty of other targets: Noble Hierarch and Planeswalkers.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I wasn't trying imply that there was only two targets.
Try this:
Black and Taxes
5 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Swamp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Duress
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Perish
List above looks ok in theory.
Without having tested this, I'd definitely cut two of those plains for additional fetchlands.
The -2 Plains +2 Arid Mesa was a good call. Instant speed Castigate is quite nice. Vindicate was replaced by O-ring [too many tricks with O-ring that make it better in this deck]. Otherwise, the Black splash DnT works really well. The [postSB] 10 discard spells tear apart combo, the Mangara/Karakas tears apart Control, and Engineered Plague and Swords deal with Tribal and other aggro decks.
I really like this. I'm going to give this a try. It seems to combine the best of Deadguy and DnT.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Good to know someone likes it.
Here's an updated list:
Dark Taxes:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Perish
2 Duress
1 Oblivion Ring
EDIT: Maybe Bitterblossom has a place here instead of Vindicate. Will do some testing on it later.
Last edited by zpikduM; 02-06-2011 at 04:07 AM. Reason: Bitterblossom Suggestion
Volrath's stronghold should be in that deck.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Placed 6th after 6 rounds of swiss in a 54 man tourney... it was already late so we decided to split top8... My record was 4-1-1
Round1 BUG Landstill 2-0
Okay I start off my legacy tourney career against one of my worst matchups... but i guess there's really such a thing as beginner's luck!
Game1: He mulls, and i waste his first land... he gets stuck on 1 land for almost the whole game...
Game2: He mulls yet again, but this time he gets top online... we went back and forth, he proceeded to deed and explosives me... lucky for me he drew lots of lands, it came to a point that he has no more lands to fetch... he kills my dudes until i drew Mirran Crusader which kills him!
Round2 Merfolk 2-0
Game1: Both of us had vials but I flickered his so that set him back... Flickerwisp equipped with SOFI kills him in 3 swings...
Game2: Double Mom and vial opening hand... he had no vial and force... Serra Avenger and Flickerwisp kills him...
Round3: GoyfSligh 2-0
Game1: I draw a timely Oring for his 5/6 Goyf and he proceeds to draw lands
Game2: SoLaS for the win!
Round4 Burn 1-2
Game1: Double Grim Lavamancer = Sad DnT player
Game2: Managed to land a thorn of amethyst turn 2... Had a Serra Avenger and SoLaS, he fireblasts in response to equip but I had Flickerwisp to save her, this happened 2 consecutive turns
Game3: Double Grim Lavamancer but I managed to kill 1... On the last turn before I could have stabilized and me at 4, I had a creature equipped with SoLaS and a Jitte ready to be equipped, he topdecks price
Round5 Rock
Game1: I got explosives-ed but I managed to stabilize with Serra Avenger equipped with SoLaS and Flickerwisp and a Mother i think...
Game2: I managed to play Revoker naming Pern Deed, he plays explosives... he proceeds to deed me as well... he beats me with treetop, but i Pithing it... it came to a point that he had a 6/7 goyf, and i had a flickerwisp... I was at 9 life and he was at 15... i draw Mirran Crusader!He fetches to find an answer for 2 turns, I attack twice with Flicker so he goes to 7, and from there I attacked for the win... his next card, PTE!
Round6 ID Black Aggro? Bunch of 1mana 2/2's (We still played for nothing)
Game1: He succesfully hymns a plains and i proceed to be beat up by 4 2/2's
Game2: SoLaS for the win!
Game3: He goes darkrit hyppie and he gets to hit twice before i can get rid of it... SoLaS brings me to the end again...
Both G2 and G3 he had revoker on SoLaS, but I had relicwarder both games as well...
MD is the same as Finn's OP except -3plains,+2flagstones,+1wasteland and -2revokers,+1Oring,+Mirran Crusader
Didn't really use SB much because i didn't have bad matchups (beginner's luck i guess!) The Enlightened Tutors stayed in the SB all day... Despite all the combo floating around I didn't face one...
Notes:
- I think 2 is the number for revoker MD with 1 on the SB...
- I think Mirran Crusader is good in some metas but not more than 2... I'll try to fit another in the deck but I'm having a hard time with what to cut... the argument that he dies to STP, and burn applies to your other creatures as well except Grunt for the burn part... the added plus of chumping a huge KOTR and a goyf while you're fliers go over them is such a huge plus... and he doesn't die to GFTT/Smother etc. Plus he's an easy cut for SB in some matches... Also I may be biased because he won me 2 games...
- Prior to this tourney, I was sure of cutting the Oring but the 1 i had won me some games... I think i need to think about this some more...
Next report from 16man tournament
i was piloting this list:
G/W Loamed D&T:
4 Temple Garden
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
2 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Aether Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
4 Leonin Arbiter
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ghostly Prison
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Null Rod
Round 1 vs Affinity ( I knew there will be affinity in my meta but didn't suspect that there will be 2 affinities, this one was second one).
He win the roll
G1 - I keep good hand with StP, Wasteland and Loam this should stop him for a while. He started with Ornitopter land and Drums. I sworded Ornitopter, then waste his land on second turn (good for me because he drew carnial plating). After some loam+waste loop i landed Tabernacle and gg.
Side out: 4 leonin arbiter, 3 mother of runes (didn't saw any thing like Master of Etherium)
Side in: 1 Null Rod, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
G2 Was fast.. second turn null rod with krosan grip in hand, even with dream hand from affnity he just pushed for 6 then I Krosan his last attacker.
2-0
Round 2 vs CB Bant
This MU was favorable but statistics lies when sb. draw as vampiric tutor mode on.
I won the roll
G1 I keep good hand with Vial, Mother, arbiter, and Qasali, wasteland, savannah and Temple garden. He FoWed first turn vial. Then fetch and pass. I played Arbiter to forced this daze but he just fetch for Tundra in respond and StP after resolve. He put in CB on table then pass. I played Wasteland(for daze backup) then Qasali to take of CB, he counter with blind top. I waste his tundra and keep him on one land. He didn't draw any land for next couple of runds but he just conter all threads with blind CB what was really lucky, he counter one more pridemage, 2 Oblivion rings and Mangara.. after all i was smashed by 2 goyfs..with Jace backup.
Side out: Tabernacle, Life from the Loam
Side in: Krosan Grip, Choke
G2 I keep good hand with Krosan, Vial, Mom and 2 goyfs and 2 lands. I started with Vial he FoWed. Then he played SDT and pass. I played Mom and pass he untap and played CB. I Krosan grip it at the end of next round. Then land Goyfs to start beating. Then he played Explosives for 1 and pass. Next Goyf get spell snare. He blow up Mom then StP last goyf. Game was quite exiting but after i draw 3 lands in row I lost control on table with next CB and gg.
0-2
Round 3 Against Landstill U/w
I scout him in first round so i knew what's he playing.
I win the roll.
G1 He mull to 5.. fast beating was gg not worth describing, just few goyfs with mom back up.
Side in: 3 Goddeck Teeg, Choke, Enlightened Tutor
Side out: 3 StP, Maze, Tabernacle.
G2 He started with fetch, and pass i open with vial and it resolve (after game he said that he take off FoWs for more and more removal (Wrath of Gods, 4 StP, 3 Path to Exile, 2 Humility), I kept Goddeck on hand and resolve Mom he didn't kill her. On his 4th turn he put Elisabeth and starting beat with Mishras at the end of turn I put Goddeck from vial, then Oblivion Ring his Elisabeth and it was gg. then i starting loaming and left him on 2 lands and beating with Goddeck. Was easy.
2-0
Round 4 vs Spiral Tide
I was afraid of this MU specially first game, I knew that combo MU is bad.
He win the roll.
G1 He: Island, go. I kept the hand with arbiter (my only hope to slow him down) and mother. He started to combing in 3rd turn but arbiter was annoying (couldn't play merchant scroll) so he snap at middle of combo and that was his mistake Prot from Mom and he fizzle. I beat him before he re-full his hand.
Side in: 3 Goddeck Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Enlightened Tutor, Choke
Side out: Tabernacle, Maze if Ith, 4 Swords to plowshares (that could be mistake because, I could StP his cloud fearies when he snaping them).
G2 Mull to 6 still can't find hate vs combo only arbiter slow down. Again he made mistake with fetch (didn't respond) he Fizzle on turn 2 then discard from ideas unbound.
This was his first try with spiral so he didn't play it very good.
Round 5 - U/g/r Threshold again good MU
G1: I push him with Goyfs and waste his red source on table he didn't play basics.. then vial and mangara lock.
Side in: Choke, Sword of Fire and Ice
Side out: Tabernacle, Mangara
G2: He tempo my with Submarge and 3 goyfs after bolt first turn Mom. I kept poor hand - bad decision.
G3: I race with him with goyfs feed from his spells then quarter/loam lock.
Top4 I face again CB Bant and again lose 1-2. Once I lock him with loam/arbiter after 3 FoWs in first 3 turns other 2 games was very long and didn't remember them good but CB player had really good hands and I still drew lands..
Conclusion: I think second Krosan Grip is needed on sb. think about take off Prison but its very useful vs tribals but on the other hand Stoneforge Mystic with swords/jittes works there very well so probably i take it off. It useful also vs Belcher/TES but Null Rod also is useful vs those MU.
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