[Deck] Dredge

[sun1996]

what about this in side?
butcher of malakir
for 1 dread return we can easily remove progenitus and other fat guys just sacrificing creatures !
i think it's fantastic!

[Izor]

what about this in side?
butcher of malakir
for 1 dread return we can easily remove progenitus and other fat guys just sacrificing creatures !
i think it's fantastic!

The first thing that comes to mind is that Butcher nukes your own Bridges, which makes it kind of unplayable already.

But let's have a look. A DR target has to have a huge impact and it has to help out in situations where we are in trouble in order to be worth playing. So the only thing Butcher can do is remova a Progenitus, as you mentioned. The qustion is: Why do you even care about Progenitus. I would claim that Dredge is one of those few decks that can constantly race Progenitus. Our Grave Trolls are bigger and our Zombies are just too many.

Additionally it's nothing but useless if you don't have any sacrifice outlets in your graveyard.

So I wouldn't play it.

[forsmark]

Hello everyone!

I've been playing ichorid for a few weeks now in my local weekly tourny, been doing better each week. Last night I went 4-0-2, which is my best yet. I am still very unexperienced playing the deck really, so there is lots of room for improvement. This is the list I played:

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Dread Return
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen

A word or two about the list:

2 Iona, Shield of Emeria - I find that going for the 3 creatures in play DR Iona into play ftw to be surprisingly strong. Maybe it's just me who deep down inside actually wants to play reanimator, but so far it's been treating me well.

Following the logic from above I have been feeling that I want to fit in the third DR somehow. But also, I feel that I want to fit in a thrid Thug or maybe a Darkblast as 12 dredgers sometimes seem a bit low. I have no idea what to cut tho.

In the sb I want to take out the leylines, as I have yet to board them in. Also changing Terastodon to Angel of Despair seems solid to me, as I have never had the need to blow out more than one thing yet. I have however had the need to blow up emrakul.

A few questions:

1) How to play against Jixlid Jailer? Darkblast?
2) How to play against Jitte? Tireless tribe and a bunch of zombies are the only thing to that are going to stick around, but bridges gets removed fast against Jitte (i find at least) and Tireless Tribe can't win on his own obviously.

[igri_is_a_bk]

You probably want to consider going up to 4 Ancient Grudge in your board. It's the most important card for us to bring in for a majority of matchups, as it can hit a lot of targets besides the obvious gy hate. Also, if you read the opening post, Parcher played Greater Gargadon to avoid Jitte counters, protect Bridges, and save Ichorids from exile.

[chags]

You probably want to consider going up to 4 Ancient Grudge in your board. It's the most important card for us to bring in for a majority of matchups, as it can hit a lot of targets besides the obvious gy hate. Also, if you read the opening post, Parcher played Greater Gargadon to avoid Jitte counters, protect Bridges, and save Ichorids from exile.

I have never seen anyone actually go to a tournament with greater gargodon in their sb for dredge. To avoid jitte counters you really just have to eliminate the jitte itself, one of the many uses for game 2 and 3 ancient grudge. The other option is to try a darkblast in the main to kill equipped creatures before they can deal damage. If you have enough bridges that you need to be scared of jitte then you should also be getting pretty close to just comboing out. If they continuously kill their dudes with jitte to get rid of all your bridges then just go on the ichorid aggro plan, they are clearing the way for him.

[Anusien]

Or race Jitte. It's not amazingly hard.

[chags]

So my current list looks like this:

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
4 Ichorid
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard
3 Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen

My meta typically consists of ANT, countertop thopter, New Horizons, Zoo, Junk, Death and Taxes, and occasionally goblins, fish, landstill and burn. I've been toying with FKZ in the main to help against aggro and storm but am testing Terastodon to beat the random g1 hate new horizons, junk, zoo, and countertop all play. I'm looking for some opinions on sideboard plans for these match-ups. When I ran FKZ main sideboarding wasn't too hard but with the slight adjustments I want a more concrete plan for each match up. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[jandax]

So decks tend to maindeck GY hate where you play? Or have you been randomly blown out by a maindecked Relic or something? Thing is, maindecking hate slows down their gameplan, yet it shouldn't slow down your game one plan of overextending and stomping face. Maindeck FKZ will help you race fast decks like Storm, who sometimes don't even pack GY hate because they try to outrace the Zombie horde.

I'd not play around hate game one, as it is generally a lock for you. Changing your deck and play style to accomidate the randomness people do by maindecking GY hate slightly takes an edge away from your plans. If they have it, they were prepared and could possibly deserve the win. Don't count on every opponent maindecking hate, and for the random ones, remember who does it and what they're playing so if you sit across from them, you'll not walk right into a sandbagged Relic or something.

The only thing I can suggest is move FKZ main in Iona's spot. Game one, you wanna swarm them. Games two and or three, it's a tactical battle, and Iona is way more of a tactical card. FKZ makes you overextend by dredging to not only find it but return it with enough moebas and things. Iona can come into play and lock ANT out of Tendrils or Zoo off of their removal color (white if you have enough life, red if you're in burn range), and it's a three turn clock assuming no Ichorids or moebas have made contact.

[Lorenzo767]

Hi!
Is anyone testing Stile inside vs GY hate? it is also good to slow down opponent or to stop opponent's denial...
What do you think of it?

Actually my decklist is this:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

But i think i will make some change, infact i want to play Iona and the third Dread Return in MD but it's hard to find space for this 2 cards because i think the only solution is: +1 Iona+ 1 DR -1 Careful Study -1 Imp/tribe but i don't like to leave Study and Discardar-Creature...What do you think about it?
And about my SB?

[Anusien]

Holding up mana is very very difficult.

[I am the brainwasher]

What's about Massacre Wurm from MBS ?
To me it looks like just insane in the mirror or against Gobs as a Dread Return target in the sb. .

[chags]

So decks tend to maindeck GY hate where you play? Or have you been randomly blown out by a maindecked Relic or something? Thing is, maindecking hate slows down their gameplan, yet it shouldn't slow down your game one plan of overextending and stomping face. Maindeck FKZ will help you race fast decks like Storm, who sometimes don't even pack GY hate because they try to outrace the Zombie horde.

I'd not play around hate game one, as it is generally a lock for you. Changing your deck and play style to accomidate the randomness people do by maindecking GY hate slightly takes an edge away from your plans. If they have it, they were prepared and could possibly deserve the win. Don't count on every opponent maindecking hate, and for the random ones, remember who does it and what they're playing so if you sit across from them, you'll not walk right into a sandbagged Relic or something.

The only thing I can suggest is move FKZ main in Iona's spot. Game one, you wanna swarm them. Games two and or three, it's a tactical battle, and Iona is way more of a tactical card. FKZ makes you overextend by dredging to not only find it but return it with enough moebas and things. Iona can come into play and lock ANT out of Tendrils or Zoo off of their removal color (white if you have enough life, red if you're in burn range), and it's a three turn clock assuming no Ichorids or moebas have made contact.

Yea the main reason I put Tarastodon main is that within my playgroup there is a multitude of maindeck hate in rare forms like humility, ensnaring bridge, pithing needle [easiest to get around by far], and some other random stuff. While I like FKZ main he only has felt necessary against storm and the storm pilots i tend to run into are not all that great. Iona shuts out the control decks pretty well, I may move terastodon back to the side but he performed well for me last week.

[Parcher]

Allright baby birds. I guess it's time to feed you. I had just hped that someone else would have figured it out by now.

You want the one card that replaces all main deck Dread Return targets?

The one that gives (with another Dread Return on GGT+Therapy) the speed of FKZ, without it's vulnerability to Bridge removal?

The one that dodges Elephant Grass? Propaganda? Tabernacle? Even Moat and Blazing Archon? Basically everything in the format outside Confinement and Chasm. And in conjunction with Firestorm or Gargadon can even beat those?

The single card that makes an Emrakul attack by your opponent an auto-win for you?

The one that makes the enemy's Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed a no-win situation? That lets you ignore blockers?

The card that makes even with the weakest graveyards, each Ichorid swing for six? That swings for a hasty five himself?

Yes, you do need to Therapy away Plow first, but the card I'm talking about is:

STALKING VENGANCE

[jandax]

Solid tech right there

[Kage]

Parcher 4 president. Seriously.

[Ozymandias]

This is tech from 2007, guys:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...m=12#320877398

The big issue with stalking vengeance FTW is that you need an additional Dread Return and an additional Therapy, and moreover, your troll needs to be 20/20 to get there. You only run max 30 creatures, so you have to have dredged most of your deck to win anyway, and if you have to sculpt double DR to win, might as well run Primus/Terastodon+FKZ/Iona so that your targets actually do things on their own. Still, an interesting thought.

[GGoober]

Allright baby birds. I guess it's time to feed you. I had just hped that someone else would have figured it out by now.

You want the one card that replaces all main deck Dread Return targets?

The one that gives (with another Dread Return on GGT+Therapy) the speed of FKZ, without it's vulnerability to Bridge removal?

The one that dodges Elephant Grass? Propaganda? Tabernacle? Even Moat and Blazing Archon? Basically everything in the format outside Confinement and Chasm. And in conjunction with Firestorm or Gargadon can even beat those?

The single card that makes an Emrakul attack by your opponent an auto-win for you?

The one that makes the enemy's Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed a no-win situation? That lets you ignore blockers?

The card that makes even with the weakest graveyards, each Ichorid swing for six? That swings for a hasty five himself?

Yes, you do need to Therapy away Plow first, but the card I'm talking about is:

STALKING VENGANCE

Best president speech ever. You convinced me and get my vote! That is some serious tech, despite Ozzy showing that it's been tried. But meta change in out, so I guess this is in nao?

[Izor]

Haha, wow this Vengeance idea is nice.

Although Ozymanias alredy said that it will probably not become a staple, I just wanted to add that it actually requires less than a 20/20 troll. Say you DR Vengeance, then sac 3 tokens to DR Troll, the Troll has to be only 14/14 to make the damage lethal (due to the tokens that died).

[coraz86]

The big issue with stalking vengeance FTW is that you need an additional Dread Return and an additional Therapy, and moreover, your troll needs to be 20/20 to get there. You only run max 30 creatures, so you have to have dredged most of your deck to win anyway, and if you have to sculpt double DR to win, might as well run Primus/Terastodon+FKZ/Iona so that your targets actually do things on their own. Still, an interesting thought.

I agree that it's not a knee-jerk auto-include, but if it sticks for very long, Ichorids going home at the end of every turn will do damage. Multiple free Lightning Bolts every turn seem pretty okay. Might be decent anti-Moat tech or decent for the mirror or something. Anyway, I feel like Parcher made a solid case for it.

[Ozymandias]

Again, you're looking at a win-more situation.

The cards I stare most at in my Ichorid list, the ones that dare me to cut them, are the Dread Return targets. They're often superfluous when you're ahead, and often too-little-too-late when you're behind (For instance, TES, where the good versions chant you in your draw step and win the next turn. It's just that there are a lot of games where DR targets are the only good routes to victory, such as when Terastodon clears out a moat or Iona locks Storm or Ichorid off of black. I just don't know if those games are actually worth putting two blanks in your opening hand. Most of the time--I would go as far as to say by far the vast majority of the time-- if you cast thee therapies and dread return Troll, or swing with two ichorids across a c clear field, then turn them into 4 zombies at EOT, you're going to win anyway. I guess part of the reason I play DR targets is for psychological comfort--I may not win EVERY game 1, but at least I know I'm CAPABLE of winning every game 1. Stalking vengeance doesn't do more than more popular targets, and so, back to the EDH decks it should go.