[Deck] Elves Combo

[k2thej]

Let me rephrase that;

@ K2thje and other experienced Elves-combo players;
Why are you not running Genesis Wave? Personally I have trouble seeing the value of Summoner's Pact. Fetching Nettle Sentinel and/or hertiage Druid and occasionally Regal Force is all it does and this leads to a difficult and slow going combo if you had Glimpse. Setting up a 'small' Wave for about X= 7 seems about as good and provides Glimpse 5-6-7(-8) in a way, as in , a card to start to combo with and end the turn with overwhelming boardadvantage. Downside remains you will need 1 more turn to win, that's why I do run 2x Living Wish and 1x Emrakul but still. It feels powerful but the last couple of posted decks doesn't run this.

Can someone better with this deck (like, all of you) explain why Genesis Wave is not being run in the current decks?

Ok so, first of all, summoner's pact is almost single handedly responsible for the consistency of this deck. Think of it this way- you only use it when comboing, and it is a wild card for any creature in your deck. When you are comboing it is free since you will have plenty of mana. The #1 target to start a combo is, sure, either nettle or heritage, but mid combo visionary is the main target. This summoners pact into essentially draw two cards for free while glimpsing. It becomes anything you need at any given time, and if you care clever enough, it will give you an extremely high combo consistency with this deck.

As for Genesis wave, you said x=7 would be a small wave, so you need 10 mana to pull this off. If you have a summoner's pact, you can cast a regal force for three less than that and most likely get more cards, and if you don't, if you have a wish, you can cast a regal force for one less than your suggested wave and still most likely get more cards out of it. Consistency with this deck comes from cards that are never dead, that's why summoner's pact and wish are awesome, but genesis wave is dead until later in the combo, at which point there will always be better options to cast. It's not horrible, it's just not better than other cards that we can use.

Genesis wave, to me, is just a worse regal force. It costs more for less card advantage, and if you are glimpsing, you don't get to draw for the guys that enter the field. Thus, wave actually hurts your combo since it takes aways a bunch of glimpse fuel and puts them on the field as if glimpse was inactive.

[voltron00x]

This is the part of the conversation where I argue that Genesis Wave is a very strong back-up Glimpse, and k2thej says you don’t need a back-up Glimpse because you always have it and it always resolves, or something else I struggle to wrap my brain around and therefore withdraw from the conversation.

Further, I would point out that the comparisons above aren't really relevant to the argument for/against Genesis Wave. I play Wave WITH Pact and WITH Regal Force. I’m not cutting those cards to play Wave.

Just Me – go back like 4 pages in this thread and you’ll see this exact conversation. I think Wave is very good, it has been and continues to be quite strong in my testing. That appears to be the minority opinion in this thread, however.

[kyller83]

well said k2the j.

i'd also like to point out that with 4 pacts and 3 living wishes you are essentially running 8 regal forces.

if you're going to run gen wave you have to build your deck so that it is your end game. it doesn't put cards in your hand to let you keep drawing off of glimpse so you need to make it guarantee a victory. passing the turn after you've reached full combo is extremely dangerous and not the point of this deck at all. if you want to run gen wave i'd suggest multiple concordant crossroads, mirror entities, and maindeck cradles.

k2thej: i couldn't help but notice you cut masticore from your wishboard. i really like the masticore. it seems like every tourney he wins me 1-2 games. he kills peacekeeper and gets rid of bridges from below. we only have 2 cards different in our builds since switching to the wish package(that's me keeping up on the forum and you having; in my opinion, the strongest build since survival left. thanks, btw). i personally swear by the 1 of concordant crossroads. it makes comboing so much easier; not actually faster, but when i do combo it makes that turn take a considerable amount of time less.

[kyller83]

This is the part of the conversation where I argue that Genesis Wave is a very strong back-up Glimpse, and k2thej says you don’t need a back-up Glimpse because you always have it and it always resolves, or something else I struggle to wrap my brain around and therefore withdraw from the conversation.

Further, I would point out that the comparisons above aren't really relevant to the argument for/against Genesis Wave. I play Wave WITH Pact and WITH Regal Force. I’m not cutting those cards to play Wave.

Just Me – go back like 4 pages in this thread and you’ll see this exact conversation. I think Wave is very good, it has been and continues to be quite strong in my testing. That appears to be the minority opinion in this thread, however.

my question is how do you generate the mana for a big gen wave w/o glimpse? i'm not knocking gen wave, but i think it requires more adjustments than just squeezing them into the standard elf combo deck.

[Infinitium]

The thing with Genesis Wave (and most bombs in general) is that it doesn't scale well; you're either have a mana engine in play and have it win the spot or it sits pretty in your hand waiting for your board state to improve. Glimpse, Wish, GSZ and similar cards are already good at low mana availabilities and will still win the same should you power them out in the lategame.

[voltron00x]

All you need is 4-5 big-mana guys (at least 4 Archdruid and possibly supplemental Priest of Titania), and possibly Gaea’s Cradle if you’re so inclined. Wave is weak against decks like Zoo that have a lot of spot removal to kill your mana guys, but otherwise it is really powerful. You can muscle up into a lethal attack on turn 4 off a turn 3 wave very easily. Without Archdruid, the card is still rarely dead, I've been able to Wave for 5-6 on turn 3 just with Heritage, Quirion, and a mana Elf, and those can be pretty spicy.

Basically, the deck runs a ton of untap creatures already, so Wave will usually feed you some more, letting you get a few buys off your Archdruid. If you have, say, a Pact, you can use the second shot of the Druid to pact for Regal Force and usually win from there, or you might Wave into Eternal Witness or Regal Force, both of which can win the game. You might also flip Visionaries and draw into Pact to allow one of those lines of play to open up.

I don’t think the strategies are really “conflicting” that much except that you are forced to play Archdruid, which I don’t think is such a bad thing.

The real question is more Living Wish or a Glimpse back-up. I’ve always preferred a back-up.

[TimEvans]

Hi there! First time poster long time elf player.

I've an elf combo deck together for legacy, its similar to the builds here with all the staples...
I was actually chatting with a freind about a possible wish sb for this deck. At the moment I do win via a big emrakul at end of combo, I don't wish for it. But its pretty consistent to pluck out of the deck off a glimpse (when the combo works it works)

I've been having significant trouble vs D&T's and countertop matchs seem tricky.. as for the rest it mostly seems like decent mu's with the exception being active goblin sharpshooters.

I'd have to agree gwave doesn't fit in this deck at all. I've found the only time gwave is playable is when you expect to have 5-6 mana minimum after a board sweeper to somewhat restablish. This is of course not why you run the card, but if this secondary use is unlikely or impossible 95% of the time gwave sucks for the deck imo.

I've also found this deck list to be incredibly consistent, consistency problems in the deck are always the result of disruption, or your own bad plays.

Further on the Summoner's Pact value, its also very good at completing an alpha strike, you know on those rare games where you actually don't see a glimpse but you have a field of men, searching up a lord can put the force big enough to just end the game. I also use caller of the claw in control matchups, and have found that many times that pact has meant winning after a board sweeper searching up the singleton Caller.

I'm very interested to follow some results with the wish set up though. The biggest problems I have encountered with the singleton emrakul is hes often deep on the bottom of the deck.. this makes the combo take much longer, and you run the risk of actually decking yourself with too many active glimpses, a few times I have been forced to end my turn and discard emrakul to shuffle it back to library. Your gonna win next turn either way.. but when you have to pitch emrakul back they get to untap.

[NihilObstat]

This is the part of the conversation where I argue that Genesis Wave is a very strong back-up Glimpse, and k2thej says you don't need a back-up Glimpse because you always have it and it always resolves, or something else I struggle to wrap my brain around and therefore withdraw from the conversation.

I play Wave WITH Pact and WITH Regal Force.

That's the same reason why I'm still playing Curio. It wins all those game when we don't see any Glimpse or it goes countered. I do see Curio as a stronger option though. Lower mana. Helps us never running out of fuel. Combos the whole deck without even resolving Glimpse.
Still, that's me, and I know I'm only playing in 20-30 players tournaments but still, I have top8ed my last 3 tournies in a row. Many games thanks to Cloudstone and many others to maindeck Mirror entity.

[Eldarion]

That's the same reason why I'm still playing Curio. It wins all those game when we don't see any Glimpse or it goes countered. I do see Curio as a stronger option though. Lower mana. Helps us never running out of fuel. Combos the whole deck without even resolving Glimpse.
Still, that's me, and I know I'm only playing in 20-30 players tournaments but still, I have top8ed my last 3 tournies in a row. Many games thanks to Cloudstone and many others to maindeck Mirror entity.

Could we see your current decklist? I like the Living wish version and have it mostly built, but I'd like to see the other ways to go about building this.

[(nameless one)]

So what's the general consensus with GSZ?

[kyller83]

i like curio more than gen wave and maybe i'll try it after this tourney, but haven't found a need for it yet. i've won quite a few games w/o glimpse. between cradle, crossroads, archdruids, and regal forces it can just happen naturally.

gsz is prolly better left in the elf aggro decks(don't forget to include a dryad arbor)

d&t: i like terastadon a lot in this match up sometimes masticore too.

countertop: leyline of lifeforce; sideboard in any relevant tutor targets.

sharpshooters: archdruids, warcaller, masticore.

btw if you don't know my board:

4 leyline of lifeforce
4 thorn of amethyst
1 gaea's cradle
1 viridian corrupter
1 ezuri
1 masticore
1 regal force
1 terastadon
1 emrakul

[xazzax]

So, my question is, what do you guys side in for enchantress? Just Krosan? I've lost to them lately a couple times, mainly because lucky 2nd turn Humilities... Comments? Ideas?

3/4 Korsan Grip and my secret tech:




Single Nullmage.
Good if you play 4 Hivemasters. Just save grip on humility and tutor this stuff.

[k2thej]

well said k2the j.

i'd also like to point out that with 4 pacts and 3 living wishes you are essentially running 8 regal forces.

if you're going to run gen wave you have to build your deck so that it is your end game. it doesn't put cards in your hand to let you keep drawing off of glimpse so you need to make it guarantee a victory. passing the turn after you've reached full combo is extremely dangerous and not the point of this deck at all. if you want to run gen wave i'd suggest multiple concordant crossroads, mirror entities, and maindeck cradles.

k2thej: i couldn't help but notice you cut masticore from your wishboard. i really like the masticore. it seems like every tourney he wins me 1-2 games. he kills peacekeeper and gets rid of bridges from below. we only have 2 cards different in our builds since switching to the wish package(that's me keeping up on the forum and you having; in my opinion, the strongest build since survival left. thanks, btw). i personally swear by the 1 of concordant crossroads. it makes comboing so much easier; not actually faster, but when i do combo it makes that turn take a considerable amount of time less.

Still testing, but Masticore could come back. I haven't ran into any peacekeepers yet though. Wasteland has been pretty cute in certain matchups, but masticore or one of the other creatures might be better. Stilllllll testing.

[kyller83]

well i have a tournament tomorrow so hopefully i'm prepared. i'll try to take notes so i can give a decent report. wish me luck!

[(nameless one)]

Good luck and don't forget secret techs.

[BigBOne]

No one mentioned Weird Harvest?
It is better than Genesis Wave in almost any Situation...just search for some Nettle Sentinel, Symbiots and Emrakul.
Using it without finishing the game is maybe a bit risky if your opponent has somthing like Peacekeeper.

[k2thej]

No one mentioned Weird Harvest?
It is better than Genesis Wave in almost any Situation...just search for some Nettle Sentinel, Symbiots and Emrakul.
Using it without finishing the game is maybe a bit risky if your opponent has somthing like Peacekeeper.

I used to play weird harvest. I took it out and never looked back. It causes way too many combo fizzles, and is essentially just a wincon. By the time you could cast it to help with the combo, you should be comboing anyway. It's really not worth it.

[TossUsToLions]

I used to play weird harvest. I took it out and never looked back. It causes way too many combo fizzles, and is essentially just a wincon. By the time you could cast it to help with the combo, you should be comboing anyway. It's really not worth it.

You don't need to use it when comboing off, though. It IS the combo. If you play Priests and Archdruids (i know most do not play both, but you can definitely fit playsets of both of them in the deck and still have room for your Glimpses, Nettles and Heritage Druids), just Weird Harvest for a Symbiote, Quirion, and Emrakul. That gives you 3 untap activations (or more if you searched for more creatures) to use on your Priest/Archdruid, enough to hardcast Emrakul, then win

[NihilObstat]

Could we see your current decklist? I like the Living wish version and have it mostly built, but I'd like to see the other ways to go about building this.

This is my latest build and they actually opened a new "Elves combo" thread in the page just with this deck, finally!!!

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=40539

It needs 1 Joraga Warcaller and maybe Wirewood hivemaster is too geeky but it has helped in other tournies for the win.
I am still loving loving Grapeshot over any storm wincom, and I believe it's better than Emrakul. It kills early games threads, and you can recycle it with Eternal witness.

I am currently testing GSZ but I can't report yet. Have fun!!!!

[unicoerner]

How polpular is Peecekeeper getting? I lost a match to it just becasue my "combo win" is emrakul. If it gets more polpular we will have to play a real combo win.