[Deck] Dredge

[Final Fortune]

How does LED improve the MU against combo and FoW decks? The first turn wins via LED is a very very very rare occurance. I think the pilot got lucky with his MUs on that day coz that build is very inconsistent IMHO.

LED into Coliseum accelerates dredgers into Narcomoeba, which in turn enables Cabal Therapy -> ??? on the first turn and that disruptions buys enough time for the deck to either kill in the next two turns or continue dredging into Cabal Therapy.

[menace13]

The speed of a hand with LED+Dredgers and DA is what the deck is going for. Coliseum in that same hand is likely to dredge the entire deck with 5 draws. Not one of the Combo decks had any GY hate.

Lately Dredge has been doing well online and is currently in the top 5 of the most placing decks.

[Digital Devil]

The speed of a hand with LED+Dredgers and DA is what the deck is going for. Coliseum in that same hand is likely to dredge the entire deck with 5 draws. Not one of the Combo decks had any GY hate.

Unluckily, Force of Will does actually exist, so a scenario like that isn't going to happen quite often. Also, Tireless Tribe makes you recycle your best dredger while not making you hope to chain into another one, can attack or block, and can be sacrificed to Cabal Therapy and Dread Return.

[menace13]

Unluckily, Force of Will does actually exist

Obvious much?

The post was in response to how it performs against Combo.

[SHABOOGS]

LED into Coliseum accelerates dredgers into Narcomoeba, which in turn enables Cabal Therapy -> ??? on the first turn and that disruptions buys enough time for the deck to either kill in the next two turns or continue dredging into Cabal Therapy.

That'll only happen if you're on the draw and you didn't mulligan.

[Final Fortune]

That'll only happen if you're on the draw and you didn't mulligan.

Obviously, nevertheless it does happen, and it happens via. LED into DA as well on the play. LED just increases the speed of the deck and in turn the increased speed provides a better win%, but that said it's not significant enough to play LED over Tireless Tribe for consistency vs every other archetype in the format.

[SHABOOGS]

Obviously, nevertheless it does happen, and it happens via. LED into DA as well on the play. LED just increases the speed of the deck and in turn the increased speed provides a better win%, but that said it's not significant enough to play LED over Tireless Tribe for consistency vs every other archetype in the format.

Yes, it does happen. But it doesn't happen often enough to be relied upon. cracking LED to pay for DA and then activate Coliseum as your play on the first turn is bad since you won't usually have another way of discarding the 2 dredgers you used on DA. IMO DA should be used as the last draw spell to dredge the rest of your library since you're gonna be stuck with 2 dredgers in your hand without a way to dump them back in the yard (not unless you sac a narcomoeba to therapy yourself which probably not the best play if you want to disrupt combo decks). So it would be better to crack LED to activate Coliseum and them cast DA (hopefully for the win) and you could only do that if you're on the draw and didn't mulligan.

[Final Fortune]

Yes, it does happen. But it doesn't happen often enough to be relied upon. cracking LED to pay for DA and then activate Coliseum as your play on the first turn is bad since you won't usually have another way of discarding the 2 dredgers you used on DA. IMO DA should be used as the last draw spell to dredge the rest of your library since you're gonna be stuck with 2 dredgers in your hand without a way to dump them back in the yard (not unless you sac a narcomoeba to therapy yourself which probably not the best play if you want to disrupt combo decks). So it would be better to crack LED to activate Coliseum and them cast DA (hopefully for the win) and you could only do that if you're on the draw and didn't mulligan.

I don't think you understand the match up, if you're worrying about holding DA for Coliseum or holding 2 dredgers over worrying about Tendrils raping you like a helpless Japanese school girl then you've probably thrown the match. The point is LED accelerates the deck by a turn, and that turn is the difference between discarding the villain's threat and tripple penetration.

I agree LED is worse than Tireless Tribe vs. the field, but arguing LED doesn't increase the win% in game 1 vs combo is wrong.

[Izor]

Let's just agree that LED DOES of course enable the deck to go off one turn faster than LED-less lists. And that this will matter in about let's say one out of 20 games against combo, considering the facts that you first need to find all the required pieces in your opener as well as that your dredge chain could fizzle after the 1st Dredge, which will leave you helpless (only card in your hand will be dredger, and no dredger in the grave).

EDIT: I really don't like saying 'LED accelerates the deck by one turn'. That's just garbage. It enables a first turn kill in about 22% of games, not factoring in the occasions when your opponent has Force of Will or when your Dredge chain fizzles after the first Dredge. Outside of turn 1, which means already on turn 2 and all turns after that, LEDless is just as fast as LED. Just more consistent. That said, LED only matters in the combo matchup if your opponent could go off in the following turn and that turn would be the one after your first. Later, LEDless would race combo just as well.

As for the other argument that LED improves the control (Force of Will) matchup, that's obviously not true. Being maybe one turn slower won't matter for LEDless builds and the improved consistency is the only thing that really matters agains Control.

[Digital Devil]

Obvious much?

The post was in response to how it performs against Combo.

I was referring to the fact that Blue decks are more common than combo decks, and if your meta is combo-heavy you'd better play some Counter/Top shell. I don't think playing LED is worth the trade-off.

[SHABOOGS]

The only time LED improves MUs against combo decks is when you can win on turn 1 (since popular combo decks can also win on turn 1 with more consistency). And winning on turn 1 via LED is a very rare occurance. Once you get past the first turn, LEDless list can race combo fairly well.

[menace13]

Pff, this thread sounds like they dont own any LEDS.

[GoldenCid]

Pff, this thread sounds like they dont own any LEDS.

Oh yeah!! That's true!!

[Final Fortune]

The only time LED improves MUs against combo decks is when you can win on turn 1 (since popular combo decks can also win on turn 1 with more consistency). And winning on turn 1 via LED is a very rare occurance. Once you get past the first turn, LEDless list can race combo fairly well.

This is the last time I'm going to reply to this, because I think you're trolling, but you don't have to win on turn 1 with LED in order to beat combo, all you have to do is Cabal Therapy on turn 1 in order to buy yourself enough time to win. Breakthrough + LED is just better than Putrid Imp, pass on turn 1 vs combo and your win% is going to increase in the first case regardless of whether or not you dredge the nuts.

All it takes is simple gold fishing vs. TES to see what I mean.

[Izor]

Pff, this thread sounds like they dont own any LEDS.

Both versions, LED and LEDless are discussed in this thread. Some people play with the Diamonds, other play without them. Both have their arguments for their choice, and it should be noted that there is no wrong choice. Both versions are perfectly viable. It just depends on the metagame as well as on other factors. And personal preference of course.

Might be true that some people don't own the diamonds. But that might be people who want to play LEDless anyway, so don't feel the necessity to buy the LEDs for 200 bucks. And there are still people who own them, have played with both versions and have found LEDless to be better. And I daresay that that's the majority of LEDless players here, including myself.

I do however agree that those people who play LEDless for budget reasons and have never tester LEDs should not argue against them here.

@ Final Fortune:

I don't think he was trolling. He said that a first turn WIN is the only advantage LED builds have over LEDless, which is not really wrong. If you just add that LED has also a higher chance to therapy the opponent on turn 1, because it doesn't have to have CT in its opener but can also Dredge into it via LED shenanigans, the statement is perfectly true.

The whole thing is like Big Zoo vs standard Zoo. One shouldn't argue about the advantages. Everyone should know why he plays the one or the other version. No need to argue about that. That's at least my opinion.

[GoldenCid]

What i really no understand of this topic is why LEDless dredge is discussed here if already exist a topic focused on LEDless dredge!

Moreover, who has played LED version knows that rarely you win on t1. Indeed, rarely, about 1-5% of times. The main advange of LED beside the speed is the versatility of the card and main disadvantage is that it demands more skill of the pilot to choose the opening 7.

[SHABOOGS]

What i really no understand of this topic is why LEDless dredge is discussed here if already exist a topic focused on LEDless dredge!

If I remember correctly, they decided to somewhat merge the two threads when dredge (in general) became a DTB (which was due to the performance of LEDless builds at that time).

[GreenHornet]

I actually started playing LEDless dredge for budget reasons, and did quite well with it. However, after acquiring a set of LED, I did extensive testing with them. Now I prefer LED's because of the raw explosiveness.
In my meta, there wasn't much in the line to stop the deck. Because it was essentially a turn faster I didn't die to random shenanigans.
I can see how some would prefer the deck without them, but like Izor said it's mostly personal preference and meta call.

[SHABOOGS]

I started with LEDless but I eventually tested LED in the past and also liked the "explosiveness" during game 1. But I had a more difficult time playing postboard games with LED compared to the LEDless build so I decided to go with LEDless since winning game 1 is normal for this deck (whether LED or LEDless).

[Dune Echo]

Weird LED/LEDless hybrid that won a local Legacy tournament:
http://yottaquest.com/index.php?opti...ists&Itemid=17

Dredge - 5th-8th Place – Joe Ross

Card Draw:
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Combo Kill:
1 Flame-kin Zealot

Control:
4 Cabal Therapy

Discard:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond

Dredge:
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

Mana:
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Recursion:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Ichorid

Sideboard:
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Firestorm
1 Realm Razer

This was a T8 in a 33-man tournament, so it's another decklist to consider. It's an 11-land/11-dredgers version with an extreme amount of card draw to go up against control. It lacks the defensive capabilities of Tireless Tribe, but keeps the explosiveness of LED (by this, I mean in general) with the usefulness of Careful Study to sculpt a hand and draw into a Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, or Deep Analysis/LED. I'm not sold that it's optimal in any way, but it's interesting to see someone trying to effectively straddle the LED/LEDless fence for results. I'm not sure why he choose to run Realm Razer over Terastadon in the sideboard though.

I'm personally still most comfortable with the LED version of Dredge mainly because I couldn't find the consistency everyone was talking about with the LEDless version in the testing I did. All too often, I ran into mana screw trying to play WUB (Tribes, Careful Study, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy) versus the two-color, pre-sideboard version (LED, Deep Analysis, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy). (However, in all fairness, I was only testing with 12 lands versus the typical 14 for LEDless.)