I wouldn't consider that list a hybrid. That's how LED builds look today. Play the LEDs, 2 Deep Anals, one Sphinx and a FKZ, BUT aim for the best consistency with the remaining cards, which means more Careful Studies and so on.
The list seems good. Still proves what I don't like about LED lists. 11 Lands, 7 of which are rainbow...
What I think interesting is the 8 Leylines in the side. While I'm really sceptic, I must say that it could work. 11 lands won't be able to cast too much in games 2 and 3 anyway, so why not be proactive with leylines. But in the end, nothing for me. I don't know how far 3 CoVs can get in noamal metagames, which means metagames where each competitive deck has at least 3-4 pieces of graveyard hate in it's side.
Oh and Realm Razer is a good choice for metagames with a lot of Lands.dec. It really kills them so hard. Against Lands it's way better than Tera/Primus, against Stax it's faar worse, against Enchantress it's a bit worse. I'd usually play Tera, but Razer is a great anti-Lands card.
Mull to Leyline strategy would seem to be much easier since that list doesn't seem to heavily rely on having a gold land (which is a necessity during postboard games for other dredge builds). With that mana base, I think you could probably live with Coliseum as a land during postboard games with Chains and Studies and finish them off by activating Coliseum with LED. Seems like a different approach to fight hate but it seems to have worked since it made top 8.
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
This was me. It was a 30 person tourney with my record being 3-1-1 going into the T8
I played
Round 1: Lands/Bant 2-1
Round 2: Combo Elves 2-1
Round 3: Junk 2-0
Round 4: Affinity 0-2
Round 5: Checked Standings and was able to draw into T8.
Lost in R1 of T8 to Mark Walker. 0-2
Everyone always talks about winning T1 with LED dredge. But that is RARELY the case. In fact I would say it is less than 5% of games. But LEDs make turn 2 wins a lot more frequent.
This tourney I started out very lucky with turn 2 wins every game 1 for the first 3 rounds. But then the luck tide turned and I mulled 9 times the last 4 games I played. Very disapointing but not totally unexpected with LED dredge.
The funnest Match was Round 1.
Game 1. I win the die roll, choose play and go,
Turn 1. Coliseum, Careful Study, discard 2 dredgers and pass.
His turn 1. "Ahh Dredge, I'm glad I kept this hand" dropped Tabernacle and passed.
Turn 2. Dredge 5, drop 2 LEDs, Breakthrough, crack both LEDs before passing priority, dredge a bunch, discard a bunch, flash back both DAs, DR FKZ, attack with 11 3/3's.
Game 3. We both mull to 5. I end up drawing cards until I can pitch a troll. Dredge up a moeba, 2 ichorids, a therapy, and a P.Imp. Discard troll and pass. Upkeep I bring back an Ichorid by removing an Ichorid (was actually a mistake on my part because i didnt see the P.Imp). Dredge up 2 bridges, a DR, lands, and a blue card. I sac Ichorid to flash back therapy target him and name StP. Didnt get it but I saw 2 Dueling Grounds. CRAP!! Now what do I do? I sac my 2 zombies that I got from Ichorid dying and the moeba to flashback DR and target the P.IMP in the yard. Then I discard a second therapy in my hand to the Imp and flash it back blowing away the 2 Dueling Grounds and his chances at winning. I think that has been the only time I have ever Dread Returned a Putrid Imp into play. A fun way to do something ridiculous in a format that is not so forgiving for these kinds of tricks.
The meta in this tournament was VERY strange. Again proving the randomness of the format. I saw at least 2 other dredge decks (all different versions), tons of Junk, and tons of Affinity type decks. I only saw a few Counterbalance, Goblins, or Merfolk. And saw 0 Zoo, ANT, or Reanimator. The graveyard hate of choice seemed to be either Nihil Spellbomb or Relic with fewer than expected Crypts or Leylines. And of course with all the Junk decks there were plenty of Extirpates running around too.
Hey Joe,
I haven't played Legacy at YottaQuest yet (primarily play draft at YottaQuest or Illuminaudi), so I'm curious how your sideboard did with the metagame there? How did you end up sideboarding in the different matches?
Also, I much prefer the explosive feel of LED-based versions of Dredge. How did the Careful Studies work with the light mana base?
Here's a question for the LED-less guys. Why are we running the 15th land? Yes, yes consistency, yada yada. I am running the full "safe" version with no DR targets, 4 or everything etc. I hate the 2nd Dread Return, I feel its win more and would like to move the 2nd return to the board. However, I've been playing the 15th land in that slot for some time and I realized that what I missed was the 13th Dredger. I mean I always try to keep a hand with 1 discard outlet, 1 dredge, 1 land. We have 16 Discard outlets (4 Tribe, 4 Imp, 4 Careful, 4 Breakthrough), 15 lands and 12 dredgers. Am I missing something here? Why the 15th land over the 13th dredger? I understand that there are no comparable dredgers to the holy trinity, but shouldnt the 13th Dredger be under consideration? I'd like to see darkblast as the 13th dredger. You can cast it for 1 mana which is easily available to kill Dark Confidants, mana birds, steppe lynx/grim lavamancer etc. Most importantly you can kill your own Narcomoebas when you have no sac outlets for tokens. Thoughts?
I haven't played in years and am not as familiar with the rules as I used to be.
Suppose a dredge player casts Deep Analysis with 2 dredgers in the graveyard. Which of the following are possible/legal:
-Dredge twice with the 2 in the graveyard
-Dredge for the first draw with 1 from the graveyard, and the second with one that was newly put in from the first dredge
-Draw a card, then dredge
-Dredge, then draw a card
So embarrassing having to ask this.
all of this is legal. Dredge replaces any single draw, so for each card you WOULD draw you may chose to dredge instead. Therefore you can dredge "only" 4 cards with a Golgari Thug and hope to find a Golgari Grave-Troll in those 4 cards to dredge 6 for your second draw...
@ivanpei: You can certainly live with 14 lands. Lists with maindeck DR targets often run 14 lands and had success with it so I don't think it would drastically affect the decks consistency. Darkblast is a utility dredger that I keep in my 75 and I don't see any problems cutting a land for a 13th dredger (Darkblast) in your list.
You are maybe missing that C.Coliseum can't cast a majority of spells, which is why most people would count only 11 Lands in a 15 land total list. And then again it's obvious why many people play the 15th land over the 13th Dredger. 11 Gold Lands, 12 Dredgers, 12 Draw Effects, 12 Discard Outlets (not counting Cabal Therapy and Breakthrough).
But as Shaboogs said, you can also live with 10+4 lands. Hands with Careful Study can be keepable without any Gold land.
If you're that concerned, you should probably just do the math.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
I'll test the 14 land and 13 dredger configuration compared to the 15 land 12 dredger combi. Thanks for clarifying regarding land + coliseum. Double land hands with coliseum are awesome, yes but that does not make it keepable without a dredger. I'll do the testing and post results.
On this list. It's look good. I think he wanted to get rid from not having rainbow lands in hand intorducing Careful Study instead of tireless tribe. I'm not pretty sure if this is a mistake or not because study, despite atractive, digs for 2 cards that must be a dredger or you must to have a dredger in hand to explode it. This is very probable but what happen if you don't get dredgers in the first two? Or more important, you get dredgers and dredge some crap? The effect of CS is finished completely. While tribe can reccur the dredger as times as you want. Yes it needs white mana and hit a dredger but it effects is "continous" and provides a creture for DR!
I'm still having nightmares about this match... Seriously how does a turn 1 tabernacle and 2x dueling grounds in your opening hand not get there in either game.... Great dredging my friend and P. Imp being "returned" was priceless!!
I usually play 15 lands 11 gold + 4 cephalid. When I know that my opponent doesn't have wasteland, I board out 1 gold land (tarnished citadel)
@shaboogs
you usually play with 2 DR targets right? iona, fkz
can you share your list again for this? including general sideboard strategy?
Hey man, how's the eternal community there in Malaysia like? Yup, in my current 75 I have Iona and FKZ main and Woodfall Primus on the side as DR Targets. Here's the list *click* I played in my last tournament.
General strategy during postboard games depends on what kind of hate I think I'll be facing. If I think I'll see hate in the form of artifacts (crypt, relic, spellbomb), I take out 3 Careful Studies and put 3 Ancient Grudge. If I think I'll fight hate in the form of enchantments (Leyline and Wheel) I take out 4 Breakthroughs and a combination of either 1 Thug, 1 Tribe, 1 Therapy, or 1-2 DR Targets and bring in 3 Chain of Vapors and 3 Nature's Claim. Darkblast comes in for Thug whenever I come across annoying creatures (Bob, Jailer, Lackey, etc).
That "hybrid" list is the led ichorid list with careful study instead of unmask and sphinx instead of witness. He also moved a city of brass to a coliseum. I still think unmask is viable in the deck, one more of those cards for the combo matchup, and one more free discard card for yourself.
He also cut a low dredger for a third dr. I like that idea. I want to try 1 darkblast 2 thugs and 3 drs.
Question. How does trinisphere affect flashback?
You would need to pay at least 3 colorless mana to play anything with flashback. Meaning deep analysis would cost you 2U and 3 life
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Ok. Thats what i thought but i was hoping. Evoke still works tho?
Nope.
Evoke is still casting a spell. So the Trinisphere checks how much you payed for casting it, and if it was less than 3, you'll have to pay more.
@ shaboogs. It's great man. We're growing pretty well, an international bunch. I played in Australia, 2 pinays, a Russian and malaysians. But the numbers are still small though our skill and proficiency is pretty high. The problem is the $$$ considering our currency is 3 times smaller than the dollar. I know 2 of your buddies, owenzz and nothix9.
On topic, I'm sold on the 11th rainbow. What I still want is the 13 th dredger. Do you think an entomb as the 13th is ok. I plan to play maxed out everything and no dread returns. Or is this too safe?
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