Unecessary, as you should be able to find a win con with your cantrips.Originally Posted by kiwi
I finished 6-3 at DC and in 43rd place.
I might still write up something even if I didn't win anything. The day started off in a pretty rough way (mulled to 4, mulled to 6 + 1 land against Merfolk to start 0-1), and ended on a sour note against Goblins.
0-2 Merfolk
2-0 Bant Aggro
2-0 Affinity (t1 Brainstorm in response to Ravager to find FoW yielded: FoW, Null Rod, FoW)
0-2 Merfolk
2-0 UB Doomsday/Rev614 (Had an opportunity to steal an Emrakul with Gilded Drake)
2-1 UW Tempo
2-1 Elf Combo + Vengevines out of the SB
2-1 Merfolk
1-2 Goblins
1-3 against Tribal makes me worry a little bit, but was probably influenced by me mulling seven times in those four matches. Still good to meet Eric and talk about the deck a little bit more, I'll probably continue to play it.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Did you play the stock list, or did you make some alterations? Any changes you would make now based upon your experience?
I met Eric the night before at the Legacy challenge, so I modified my deck to become the new 75. Basically, just -1 Mind Harness, +1 Gilded Drake (card is pretty nutty) in the sideboard. I wanted to make my own additions, but I barely tested the deck (3-1'ed at locals on Wednesday blind, that was about it) so I didn't want to screw up the chee or the flow of the deck.
I'll wind up asking Eric about the deck sooner or later after sitting down and testing matchups some more, but (and I'll stress how new I am to the deck) my initial thoughts after playing today is running a basic Mountain for the tribal matchups. Firespout/Lightning bolt seem so crucial anyways, there's no reason to leave yourself completely vulnerable to losing those three sources of mana, and Crucible is probably too slow to survive the early pressure. I liked the 3 basic land configuration, I went to 7 fetches/2 Island for the event, but there were a lot of times I really wished I could find a basic Mountain (I was playing 4 Tarns).
I also need some more dedicated hate for Merfolk. I'm 90% sure it's my own playstyle and lack of experience with the deck, but I lost to multiple Cursecatchers, holding a Firespout and not being able to do much with only 3-4 mana. The lack of a basic Mountain also might influence my opinion on the matter. I might be crazy, but Llawan is probably worth some amount of testing. Basically it's the same mana cost as a Firespout anyways, just can't be hit by Spell Pierce or Cursecatcher. Seems good.
I'd also like some more Null Rods/Hurkyll's Recall/Rebuild. I hate losing to the ugly cousin of Legacy (Affinity). I got pretty lucky against it today by ripping the singleton Null Rod, but it's not always going to be like that. Etched Champion has protection from pretty much the entire deck. While it may never be Tier 1, it's still a pain in the ass to play against.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Agreed on Gilded Drake -- it is particulary awesome if you can land a Jace with it too.
I think 2 null rod may be right for this deck. That card is more versatile than people give it credit for: shuts down affinity, MUD, top, vial, belcher, TPS, and preemptively stops equipment.
Llawan also gives you an out vs. Progenitus, something this deck otherwise lacks. 1 or 2 sounds about right.
Well, guess I should give a short update on how SCG DC went.
Long story short, I got several draws that ground me down mentally until I was just out of it. And by several draws I mean I drew 3 matches in the first 6 rounds. Yeah, fucking 3 draws, two match of which I would have won given five more minutes of time to play. The draws ended up being against enchantress (piloted by Ponzgay who ended up making top 8), to countertop and to UW landstill. The countertop and landstill matches were in the bag until time got called and I couldn't finish off my opponents in time. It was frustrating to say the least, since I won all my other matches and if I had won the draws that I was going to take down, I could have started 5-0-1 and been in sick shape to make a run for top 8. Sadly, I couldn't run better and didn't get there.
As for all the suggestions people have been making, a bunch of them are pretty reasonable. The basic mountain idea from morbid is interesting, and not something that I've put thought into before. I always have an easy time versus the tribal decks, and I never thought much about it, but I've been thinking about putting in another land into the deck, and a basic mountain might be the ticket. It would certainly have good value versus merfolk, which is the more difficult tribal matchup. The goblin matchup isn't a cakewalk, but every time I've played it I've been able to win comfortably. The null rod count is probably right at the moment, but it could go up to 2 in the near future, especially if stoneforge mystic decks become more popular, which it seems could be the case. As for Llawan, it's something I've considered, but never really bothered with because of my previous success with merfolk. However, seeing as how natural order has been getting more and more popular (especially with green sun's zenith), it could be a good call to give the deck an out or two, plus being insane against merfolk as well.
In addition, after the tournament I was talking to my friend James about the deck, and he was concerned about the threat density and how the deck can have issues getting through a few swords or paths. Since tarmogoyf is the real quick threat in the deck, having it swords is pretty fuckin annoying without any kind of other giant threat in UGR. So one of the things I really want to do with the deck is try to add in a way to both apply pressure against control while also protecting my creatures. After some though, I actually realized that the deck might be able to implement some number of Kira, Great Glass Spinner to help alleviate the swords problem. It's easily castable at 3 mana, has evasion to help you clock, and doesn't really hurt anything you're trying to your own creatures. The only nonbo I can think of in the maindeck would be when you want to pump your own factories, but against control you wouldn't be using that ability often, rather you would probably be attacking with them. Kira will certainly be something I'll be trying out before I head to Edison. As well, I've become less and less of a fan of daze, which is getting boarded out in almost all of my matches except for against combo. It just hasn't been doing much for me since most opponents play around it, and it almost always becomes force fodder game 1, then boarded out for something else game 2. What I'm thinking of doing is removing the dazes, bringing in some number of spell pierce or the 4th spell snare, and then having space in the board for cards like kira and llawan. Again, a lot of these ideas are just theory at the moment, so I'm going to have to test them out this week before I head to Edison so I can actually back up my claims that this deck is super sweet.
You can't pull out the RUG from under me, CUZ I AM THE RUG!
I play Enchantress some myself, and while it definitely is a time intensive deck in comparison to many others, the deck isn't usually as slow as some Countertop or Landstill builds if you know what you are doing. The times I've played it, if a game goes to time, it's often because my opponent didn't know they should have scooped a long time ago, not because I was taking unfairly copious amounts of time to make decisions.
I think if you are playing a deck that is going to inherently be slower than others (43 Lands, Stax, etc.) you should try to learn the decision trees so that you can play quickly and efficiently, and so you earn an actual match victory, not a g1 victory with the second going to time because you don't know what half your cards do.
Bad beats man, looking at the top 16 I'm sure NLT would have done fine, it has a very similar playstyle to Team America which ultimately won the tournament.
Last edited by wcm8; 03-01-2011 at 11:34 AM.
There was some Japanese tournament won by NLT playing Kira. The card is really good in NLT, but I don't know what card to cut for it. The obvious choice is Clique, but cutting down on the numbers of Cliques will also make the deck a lot worse vs combo, and a little bit weaker against control (I think Clique is still way superior here).
Pozgay got another warning and subsequent game loss for slow play in the semi finals at least :)
Island, go.
I was there when you were venting during the last couple turns of one of the draws. I understand why people don't scoop when they have something to play for, but when you are dead on the board, I don't understand why people don't concede that they are beaten.
Hope to see you in Edison. Watching you play this deck is one of the best things to watch ever.
Yeah, so long as I can figure out my ride and lodging situation, I'll be sure to roll on down to Edison for the legacy open. Also, make sure you find me while I'm down there Tammit, I always love a good discussion about the deck. Talking with Morbid about the deck and watching how other people play it is fantastic cause I can just gather so much more data then just running it against the goldfish and the monthly vestal tournament.
As for the whole Ponzgay issue, I didn't think he was too douchey or anything like that when I played him. He seemed like a chill dude, just deliberately slow when he played. In truth, we both played at the same speed, going at the right pace to not fuck up, but certainly not blazing. I really wish we could have played a third game in our match, I would of been really curious to see who would of come out on top. Oh well them's the breaks.
As for changes I'm thinking of making to NLT, I'm actually considering some semi-serious revamping to the list. What I'm looking at right now is trying to alter the manabase to include a basic mountain for tribal matchups, as well as a way to include more threats in the list. What I'm considering is removing the whole factory/crucible portion, adding a basic mountain, the fourth wasteland, and another fetch or a basic forest (probably the fetch tho), adding 2 kira and possibly a grim lavamancer, taking out daze for spell pierce, and removing a ponder and something else to add in the extra threats. What I want to do is up the threat count slightly from 12 to 14 (I count jace as a threat, since he can win on his own) to get the threat density just slightly higher. In some matchups you can even have control magic work as another threat (very important in the zoo/new horizons/junk matchups). These changes would also free up some sideboard space, allowing for inclusion of another null rod, another mind control effect (probably mind harness), and even a llawan to help against merfolk as well as an out to progenitus.Just to clearly state, these changes are purely theoretical at the moment, and I have only come up with them within the last hour or so. I have no idea if they'll work or crash and burn, but I really want to improve the deck before I head to Edison. The potential is there, I just need to tweak it correctly. Also, if anyone wants to help test this week, I'd be willing to do so on MWS at night, so long as it's after Wednesday morning (got an exam then). If you got further suggestions, make sure you say em, I wanna make the deck as awesome as possible for Edison.
You can't pull out the RUG from under me, CUZ I AM THE RUG!
I'm looking into helping to run the sales booth on Saturday to feed my addiction on Sunday. Hopefully without the pillow I was dragging around at DC.
What are you looking to cut specifically for Kira? Clique is a beating against anything not trying to dump creatures on the board, as is crucible.
Everyone seems to play around daze, but the fact that it can hit KotR is amazingly relavant with the mana denial package. The pierces are very good against decks that don't try to drop KotR, but surely a decent number of decks will try. There was a ton of rock at DC and a couple bant midrange decks, not to mention the Green Sun Zenith Zoo. If you are going to be at the top tables, you have to compete with Dave Price (who is running vials now with 11 creatures). If you are trying to fit Kira in the main, running counters that cost mana seems a litte loose, no? I'm not sold on maindeck pierce
I've been thinking about EE, as someone said above, and it seems a good, although slow, solution to KotR's or what have you while also improving the aggro matchups. Probably too slow for what this deck wants to do.
How has testing gone?
I'm looking into helping to run the sales booth on Saturday to feed my addiction on Sunday. Hopefully without the pillow I was dragging around at DC.
What are you looking to cut specifically for Kira? Clique is a beating against anything not trying to dump creatures on the board, as is crucible.
Everyone seems to play around daze, but the fact that it can hit KotR is amazingly relavant with the mana denial package. The pierces are very good against decks that don't try to drop KotR, but surely a decent number of decks will try. There was a ton of rock at DC and a couple bant midrange decks, not to mention the Green Sun Zenith Zoo. If you are going to be at the top tables, you have to compete with Dave Price (who is running vials now with 11 creatures). If you are trying to fit Kira in the main, running counters that cost mana seems a litte loose, no? I'm not sold on maindeck pierce
I've been thinking about EE, as someone said above, and it seems a good, although slow, solution to KotR's or what have you while also improving the aggro matchups. Probably too slow for what this deck wants to do.
How has testing gone?
So hey everyone, long time browser - decided to start adding whatever knowledge I might have of the format and deck to the discussion. I've been playing legacy for some while now and finally settled on NLT as the deck that enjoy playing the most.
On to the real issue here. As previously stated, I have noticed in testing that the deck, behind perhaps a good zoo pilot, will run out of gas after our goyfs eat some removal. This of course, is quite a problem as clique against zoo probably won't get there unless your hand was gifted to you from god, and god was in a good mood (I'm referring to the new big zoo lists running 4 of every possible hate worthy creature in the format + GSZ). I have been testing exclusively for the past month or so and have come up with the following list:
Deck: 60
Creatures - 13
2 x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 x Grim Lavamancer
2 x Sower of Temptation
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Vendillion Clique
Instants - 22
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Fire // Ice
4 x Force of Will
4 x Lightning Bolt
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Stifle
Sorcery - 2
2 x Ponder
Money and Game Stealers - 2
2 x Jace, You Win The Game Sculptor
Lands - 21
7 x Blue Duals
2 x Island
1 x Mountain
3 x Tropical Island
4 x Volcanic Island
4 x Wasteland
Sideboard - 15
1 x Tormod's Crypt
1 x Relic of Progenitus
2 x Mind Harness
2 x Krosan Grip
2 x Pyroblast
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Submerge
3 x Firespout
A few thoughts.
The board needs to be reworked regarding the firespouts maindeck as the only real creature problem we face, is Knight. Lavamancer has been discussed before but not as something that hits a player for 2, consistantly, every single term. Who cares of it helps our tribal matchup, it also helps get the clock down for players relying on Ad Nauseum/Doomsday and can help a lightning bolt kill a flying lord of atlantis with another lord out.
Kira. Simply. Runs. The. House. I want to fit 3 but the whole legend rule.. really buggin me these days.
Factories are fun, but.. 2/2, 3/3, even the 4/4 factory doesn't trump the power of a card that does more than want to be a colored source when you have to tap it out to play a tarmogoyf. Threshold cannot rely on 3 factories to produce the color it needs as we ALWAYS have to have blue mana up for spells.
Daze, its just not good enough.
Any questions, comments, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If anyone wants to get some serious grind on online, lemme know, cause I plan to help take this deck to ruin lives in Edison.
On second thought, the Kiras might even be replaceable if someone can think of another bomb that draws swords out like goofs do, just please don't say terravore.
Actually, I'm really glad you posted your list. It looks really close to what I was envisioning with some of the changes I wanted to flesh out. I can even see fire//ice returning to the deck if it gets paired with grim lavamancer so that it actually can take down creatures instead of just tapping things down to get an extra turn against some giant dork. The thing I most curious about is how is the creature split running? I think clique is far too amazing to be running less than three, forget about it being legendary the dude just gets the job done is a myriad of different ways. I'm never even sad when I see two in my hand, since the first will draw removal, wreck their hand, and then you get to wreck their hand again! Maybe I love the creature too much, but I'm no going bellow three. I'm also glad someone other than me doesn't like daze, I'm looking forward to see how testing goes without them. I also would suggest running another fetch instead of the 4th volc, you never need 4 of them in a deck like this, so you just have to make sure you have 8 fetches, with 4 of them being tarns and you're good to go. I'll get back on here after I get some more testing in with some of these changes.
You can't pull out the RUG from under me, CUZ I AM THE RUG!
The only creatures not vanilla off the top of my head are Vexing Sphinx and Magus of the moon but prob aren't the answer.
Equipment like jittie even on lavamancer will often pull swords to action, but equipment plus kira is bad.
The problem with equipment is the amount of creatures in the deck.
Maybe thrun in the side, just my 2¢.
Coralhelm Commander has actually showed to be working fine outside of merfolk decks. It might be to weak for this deck though, it doesn't exactly have "send me farming" printed in the forehead, even though a 4/4 flyer is a good thing, should it get there.
Then you have plated geopede. 5/5 most of the early turns. Might be good enough. Most probably not.
The problem with landfall critters is that they make you use up fetchlands when you would not really need to, and when it'S downright suboptimal - if I have a Brainstorm in hand and access to blue mana, it's pretty dumb to crack a fetch just to boost a critter for a single turn just to make my opponent to lose two life (and yes, you will be tempted to do this, I can tell from playing Lynx Burn ;)), when I could very well be shuffling away turd cards for hopefully better ones right after brainstorming. Whilst I do see merit in Steppe Lynx et al. in lists that lack any serious form of library manipulation, I don't think that kind of threat is a particulalry good idea in a more sophisticated deck like this one.
Another approach I have been thinking of is playing a creature base of:
Clique, Goyf, Lavamancer and Trinket Mage
Since you play Trinket Mage, you can run Basilisk Collar as a bullet in your maindeck. The Collar is quite sick with Lavamancer. Shoot Emrakul/KotR and gain 2 life? Yes, please! When you equip to your other creatures it's also strong since it makes even your smallest creatures able to trade with KotR, and the lifegain helps when racing.
Another advantage of running Trinket Mage is you can play Needle maindeck and you also improve certain matchups, like Dredge, because you have effectively more copies of your sb hate.
I'm thinking of something like
// Lands
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Grim Lavamancer
// Spells
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Spell Pierce (or Daze)
2 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Spell Snare
1 Pithing Needle (or Engineered Explosives)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Last edited by Rune; 03-01-2011 at 09:10 AM.
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