You're right. I can play a Goyf or a Bob. and still have dealt with the Daze that you wanted to keep mentioning.You can accelerate into a Knight (without disruption protection) or you can play a Goyf or a Bob (which you could have regardless of GSZ).
Top is selection. Bob is a draw engine after he's lasted 2 turns. Outside of that, it's just a cantrip. There is a huge difference between a selection, cantrip and an engine.I'm not sure what terrible draw engine you mean either. Tops and Bobs are both great by themselves and together they are crazy. The only better draw engines I can think of are Jace or Enchantresses or Ad Nauseam.
I think Tao said it best,You can create every worst case situation you can think of but, THAT's WHY THEY'RE WORST CASE. What are you going to do when you're on turns 4-8 and your bob wasn't drawn, got removed/countered and you top-deck a Mox? This isn't worst case. *This actually happens quite often when you play legacy. Bad draws are bad draws but, they can be made better. What if that Mox was a creature tutor? What's wrong with giving it a shot?What the heck are you trying to say me? That worst case scenarios are bad?
No, you can't vindicate with double green on turn 3... nor can you Hymn but, you can have a card that's not dead. You can play Bob or Goyf around a Daze. You can cast Engineered Plague/Choke/ Search for a hate-bear post-board with that two land hand. You get more consistency with the Zenith and sacrifice the explosion. Which if you can't deal without that then Rock is the wrong deck for you. Might I suggest Belcher.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse now. You're either going to give it a try, or not. Either way, my song and dance is done. I'm going to try it though. It doesn't look all that bad to me.
I personally do not find Green Sun's Zenith to be that good for Rock/Junk. If a more aggro version is being played, then sure, I'd use it in place of Fauna Shaman or build around it so that when I cast it, I'll have options. Personally, I would rather use Mirran Crusader over GSZ. The card is just better in my build. Just like any argument for GSZ, Crusader is bad in certain situations. GSZ REQUIRES mana acceleration, and having just one playset of Moxes or Noble Heirarch's is NOT good enough. Hence why it's a bomb card in Elves.
This is the time where players should be going with what they want, play testing it and putting out results. Its time for everyone to move away from "Brad Nelson's" list and get more creative. (and yes, trying to find use for GSZ is moving into a new direction)
This primer is huge and provides more options then everyone realizes. It's one reason why I have not posted as much b/c everyone is focused on the SAME arguments.
I've made my suggestions, while either being scoffed at (1 copy of Desolation Angel), to being ignored, (Wild Mongrel to ditch "dead cards" late game) to putting in some input, (Mox Diamond > Noble Hierarch imo), to now providing new suggestions, Mirran Crusader.
And it's not JUST statements I'm providing. I started my Rock list with Noble Hierarch, and if you go backtrack to the original primer, I was swearing that they were better then Moxes . . . and then I got moxes and tried them out. I'm not looking back, they are better and worth the late game dead draw. I've tried playing with no Tarmogoyfs (i know it's not an argument that's be brought up, i'm just stating I've tried different ideas.) If people are going to continue using "Brad Nelson's" list, then suck it up, use Moxes, don't even think about GSZ, b/c his version just doesn't cut it's worth. I know b/c I have experience, I'm trying these things out and looking at the results I'm seeing. I know people have a different meta-game, in that case, get another member's opinion/experience about the subject and make a call, don't kill half a page over what's right or wrong. Make your own choice.
Rock is versatile, yet we are not fully discussing it's versatility. We know what has worked to be decent, "Brad Nelson's" list, but yet even that isn't considered a DTB, nor is any other "Dark horizon's" list. So lets move on with ideas and arguments and start showing results. You want to play GSZ? Then do so, get results and let everyone else know the turn out. Post a list, discuss the changes you made and WHY. Otherwise all this banter is going to take up and waste X many pages, as I've been staying up to date with everyone's post.
@ BMW
I use to run Stirring Wildwood. I have a love/hate relationship, as it got around Countertop and Standstill based decks. CIPT is what drew the line for me, I've moved onto Nantuko Monastery and have found the overall presence better then Wildwood. The ONLY drawback for it is that it cannot blocks flyers, but in Legacy, any relevant flyer is bigger then 4/4 anyways and should be dealt with our spells. If you don't want to drop it, put one copy in your S/B for specific matches.
Chill, I think the Mox homers should really proof read their arguments. Not very convincing. As for the Pro GSZ guys, yes this is something new and as usual legacy players despise change. Samething happened to Jace TMS, venge (myself included), even KOTR took some time to appear in legacy. Mox has it's benefits, gsz as well so lets leave it at that. @ tao's list: your deck looks like a blast to play. Seems like a mega-controlling old school rock. Interesting in this meta. Does it do well against aggro and midrange? Can we get some kind of MU breakdown?
The tournament I was going to was snowed upon, so I bailed.
Also, we should be discussing creativity. Rock has so many different angles and facets you can basically play any build you want to. Brad Nelson-esque lists are considered the norm because they are the lists that have done well in big tournaments. This is not to say another list can't I think people will go with the list they've seen do well.
If I went to that tournament today and won a Lotus with my build, and then proceeded to T8 several SCG Opens without mana acceleration, all of you would probably start to turn your heads and reconsider what you've been doing. It's just the nature of Magic and the Internet. If someone from here went to a big tournament and multiple people start using GSZ and do well, it's another competitive direction that this deck can go. Just because it hasn't done anything yet doesn't mean it won't ever.
As well, don't try to shoehorn GSZ into builds and say it's terrible. It probably is terrible in a deck filled with huge mana requirements like the Junk lists we've seen. It's just like if you wanted to stick Aether Vial in here: it's terrible just shoving 4 in. You have to build around it, ala Junk and Taxes. Same goes for GSZ. Most people opposed to it seem to have arguments about it going into Junk lists and I'll agree with them: don't shove it in, start fresh. There are advantages to playing either or both, but it comes down to one thing: they're different ideas in different directions, don't try to compare apples and oranges.
GSZ seems to have potential because of the nature of the evolution of the deck to that which has few, but beefy, beaters; answers to many things; and plays GBW.
What I'm saying is we don't need to be at odds over Noble vs. Mox, or GSZ vs. Mox, we can get around this and try to improve and innovate together instead of relentlessly bashing other ideas. Try to make them better nicely, not by saying an idea is wrong, but by suggesting a better alternative. Sometimes some cards are almost strictly better than others. For some, this line is not so definite. Desolation Angel may have a place in some builds, and perhaps we could discuss a build WHERE it would work, not by suggesting it's crap. It's only crap perhaps in the box we're trying to fit it into, not the one it actually fits in.
Hopefully you understood what I'm trying to say.
-Matt
I've tested GSZ in Naya, Bant, and Rock colors. So far, it's worked best in Naya with Bant coming up second. It's not a bad card, but it's not a control card because it doesn't help you stabilize. If anything, it makes you overextend. It's best used in an aggro deck.
When over half the top 16s coming in are decks with Wastelands, it isn't being a negative Nancy to look at the card and say "Does this help or hurt me if I come up against another deck running a mana denial plan?"
We don't need to beat this into the ground. If you are having a lot of success with your list, do some tournament reports and we can discuss it. Telling me I'm a fuddy duddy for not embracing the new tech isn't helpful either.
I think sdematt got the point absolutely right: "Just because it doesn't fit into the right box, doesn't mean it isn't good". I'd like to see players here take GSZ to a tournament and write a report about it. I'm a new home owner with an impending marriage looming so flying to big tourneys is a bit out of the picture for me unfortunately. I still play often with my regular testing partners and I play against plenty of good decks like Bant (all types), TES, Reanimator, Landstill, Zoo, Folk, Goblins etc. Sigh, I'd love to go down to GP Singapore's Legacy side event with a GSZ deck to prove my point. Oh well, we'll see how the finance minister (Fiancee) and my leave plan works out.
I have been trying out a more controlling build of The Rock, as opposed to the PT Junk style deck, with Green Sun's Zenith. Would love to get a bit of feedback from others who have been testing such a list.
List
Land (24)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
Instants (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict
Sorceries (10)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
Artifacts (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments (3)
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sideboard (0)
Not yet finalised
A little inspiration (actually a lot) from http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...day1undefeated which went undefeated Day 1 at GP Madrid. I've always wanted to build it, and I finally have all the cards, and just picked up Green Sun's Zenith too.
This deck is slow, but once it gets going it seems to be able to gain control, especially if you get either Top, Library or Stronghold out. Library especially is ridiculous - finding Kitchen Finks and ensuring you get your 4 life back is fantastic. It's been playtesting well, but I won't be able to take it to any tournaments, because there aren't any around.
Has anyone else been playing a build like this? I think Green Sun's Zenith is working wonders in this, I especially like that you have essentially 4 Eternal Witness in your deck, when you have Volrath's Stronghold on the board, and essentially 5 Knight of the Reliquary if you have Witnesss/Shriekmaw on the board. Makes it a lot easier, along with Top and Library, to get those loops going if you need to bury someone with either recurring Deeds or Shriekmaws.
I would like to fit in either Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam to recur Volrath's Stronghold if it gets destroyed and Eternal Witness is already in the graveyard. Or would it be better to run 2 Eternal Witness to combat that, since it's tutorable in the deck (and returnable) where Crucible is not? Loam is good as always, especially with Top to let you know when it's safe to dredge it back.
Other thoughts include Cabal Therapy to combo with Kitchen Finks and Volrath's Stronghold, Hymn to Tourach, more Pernicious Deed and more Elspeth, or a singleton Maze of Ith. Not considering Natural Order/Progenitus at this point.
Thoughts from regular The Rock players would be appreciated, thanks guys and girls.
That looks interesting. I would probably cut the Path and Edict for 2 more Knights. They just seem random and its always good to see more Knights.
Rock made T8 :)
Seems to me Zenith is catching on: Zoo, NO Bant, etc. It seems to be allowing people to run a ton of one-of's: one-of KotR, RWM, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it got banned, it allows you to tutor, and it shuffles in. What madness this is!
-Matt
Good madness?Originally Posted by sdematt
In relation to your comment Bignasty, I just like 5 Swords effects in the deck so far, even if it does seem random, gives you that slightly greater chance of drawing one and you generally need to see 2 fast removal spells in the early game to survive. I would like to run 6 actually, but finding room for Green Sun's Zenith was my first priority, so I'll consider the numbers again now. The Edict and Shriekmaw are there to for maindeck outs to Progenitus (Edict only) and Emrakul (both), and also with 5 one mana kill spells and 2 2 mana kill spells, it attempts to get you to that mid/late game you need to reach to start dominating with your card advantage and recursion/massive creatures. About Knight, same deal, wanted to try and fit in GSZ, so I cut one, there was originally 3. I feel that drawing Kitchen Finks early is more important than Knight. When you want Knight, you either draw her or you draw GSZ which allows you to find her. It's really a bomb card, but Kitchen Finks seems to be what you want early to stay alive, hence I cut a Knight and not a Finks, but was a hard decision.
There's just so much stuff I want to fit into this deck! More Pernicious Deed, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Knigh of the Reliquary, Kitchen Finks, Cabal Therapy... I think I could get away with cutting a land. Could I risk cutting a basic forest - if I do I won't be able to cast all my spells from basics in that instance (double Green for witness).
What do you all reckon - is 3 Sensei's Divining Top and 2 Sylvan Library too much? Since they almost do the same thing, could you go 2 Top 2 Library? Only bad thing is that you can save Top from Deed by you can't save Library, and having both makes Tarmogoyf really big.
Oh and last thought... Unearth as a one of? I've always thought it was a useful card, and especially in this deck.
The Rock deck only splashed Black for Thoughtseize and Gerrard's Verdict (and a pair of Extirpates in the SB). It's a lot like Junk and Taxes but with GSZ in place of Vials.
The BUG deck is really interesting too. If you watched the finals, Stifle was a house. Consuming Vapors in the SB is interesting and Go for the Throat seems like it might be the best spot removal in Black. Better hope you don't run into Affinity though. Imagine Consuming Vapors in a midranged Goyf/KotR/Tombstalker/Terravore mirror. Beast.
That list looks very similar to my list from last page, especially the creature numbers. That GP list looks interesting, too.
The biggest difference is that I use the Natural Order package (and Cabal Therapies). About NO itself I am not even 100% sure, but it is quite good and someone asked for a NO Zenith Rock list so I posted my current list. I also have a list without these cards, it is even more similar to what you posted. One of the biggest advantages of playing NO is that you don't autolose to NO bant anymore. Discard and removal is nice and all, but Control Rock is not fast and with the help of Top, Brainstorm and Ponder (plus Fetchland/Arbor) they will usually get there before you come close to killing them. Also, NO/Prog will just get you a good number of random wins like it does best and a powerful tool against Control decks.
Now if you play NO/Prog you have to play Therapies, because otherwise you can't get rid of a Prog stuck in your hand an acceptable manner (Thoughtseizing yourself usually isn't) and that will happen sometimes if the games go long with Deed and Removal. But Therapies are awesome, even without NO/Prog. With Finks, Witnesses and Dryad Arbors you have a ton of ways to Flashback them for free. I also like having a second Dryad Arbor in the deck for that reason. You will often enough get value out of it and at worst it is a CIPT forest. So I suggest you try 2 Therapies and see if you like them. Wall of Blossoms is another card I personally like a lot and in the current Meta you often get value out of it (Nacatl, Merfolks, Goblins).
Holy Crap, there's like a million GSZ builds out there. GSZ haters, check out the Latest Starcity open's Top 16. It's freaking everywhere. 6 out of the Top 16 decks ran 3/4 GSZ. That's 37.5%. Point proven.
Cheers for the comments Tao. It is very similar to your list actually, except for the NO package. If I were going to run NO I would definitely run something extremely similar to your list.
Did some playtesting tonight with the list against 4 colour CounterTop (UGWR) and Rb Goblins. Great against Countertop, not so hot against Goblins, although I don't know how much of that is down to variance. Goblins did have a Lackey Lackey draw the first game when I took Ringleader with Thoughtseize and Swords to Plowshares on the first Lackey, and then triple Ringleader into Wort, Boggart Auntie recurring Gempalm Incinerators... I made that Goblins deck, I shouldn't bitch...
Tao, I love the idea of getting Therapy in there. Really love the idea. I want it in! From my testing tonight I have also discovered that I also want Unearth and Life from the Loam as singles. Oh and your second Dryad Arbor is a good idea with Theray too, I like it. And finally, I never considered Wall of Blossoms before. Having a 0/4 drawing you a card would be excellent if you were planning on dropping Elspeth in a couple of turns.
Also, in relation to the manabase, my build needs more Savannah and less Bayou and Scrubland. Only 10 cards use black, but 18 cards use white and 20 cards use green. 3 Bayou 3 Scrubland 1 Savannah manabase from PT Junk doesn't cut it, I think it should be 3 Savannah 2 Scrubland 1 Bayou, or something like that.
So my revised list for testing (hopefully tomorow night) is:
List
Land (23)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Creatures (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
Instants (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Chainer's Edict
Sorceries (12)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam
Artifacts (2)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments (3)
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sideboard (0)
Not yet finalised
My only fear is that it may be a bit light on the ground for threats. However, there are 3 GSZ in there, getting you whatever you need basically whenever you need it and shuffling back to boot. So we'll give it a go.
Oh and ivanpei, 22 copies of GSZ in the Top 16 by my count. 24 copies of Force of Will. Close!
I've been playing Team America for a while as well, but I found it had Tribal woes far greater than that of Rock. I'm interested to see what decks he played against.
-Matt
does anyone have a link to the top 16 from last starcity games..... i am looking for some inspiration
pyr
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...27&event_ID=20
My fave decks to run:
Death & Taxes
Aggro Loam
Mono Blue Control
Enchantress
I don't think anyone here said GSZ is a bad card.
I was under that impression also. Not having white means you are lacking for spot removal. Maybe Go for the Throat is good enough to help those MUs out. It's also interesting that he went with EE over Deed. I can't imagine why except that he might have been expecting more Countertop/Dredge than Goblins/Affinity. The deck seems like it would have real game against Countertop either way though.
Just split top two in a 59 player tournament, winning 2x JaceTMS. My co-finalist let me have the Jaces since he was a friend.
Same list as San Jose, with slightly different sideboard.
Congrats! Any chance of another super-detailed report?
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