Couple thoughts on your mana base:Originally Posted by Beautiful-Decay
Have you ever found mutavault to be helpful?
In a deck with limited lands you want to make sure whatever you get will be useful since it is frequently only one.
You want it to be an elf, so why not play an elf in its spot? I really don't see a reason for mutavault
4 cradles is def too much. This plus mutavault leaves you with only 11 lands that can start you off. That's reeeeally low.
I run three Gaea's Cradle main deck and one in the board... And I often want more than that and have never felt that it has been clogging up my hand.
So I think it works fine. But with added mutavaults it could be a problem...
I run 15 lands, 5 Fetch, 3 Cradle and 7 Forests... I have no problem with that.
Right but when thinking about your opening hand, you need to consider the fact that you need one of the 12 lands (7 forest, 5 fetch) that can put your first creature in play before any of the other lands matter. You might be able to squeak by with 12 but you have to think about the lands you run as how many actually generate green mana with no creatures in play.
Hey guys,
I played a big tournament yesterday and Elves were just magnificent. I used K2thej wish list with slightly differen side:
4 leyline 3 thorn 1fecundity 1grip 1Gcradle 1Tstodon 1Vshaman 1masticore 1Rforce 1Emrakul
It was a qualification for a big money tournament and the winner got some byes.
1) Dredge - I was a bit late because my girlfriend didnt want to wake up and didnt have time to write down my decklist. I got gameloss for not having decklist in time. But then I realized I wrote it down into my notebook torn paper off it and here we go!
He started and I got completely smashed. I was bit worried because we have basicaly no side for this MU. Game two and three he kept slightly weaker hands, dredging didnt show him anything (Ioona is a GG) and I won easily.
1:0
2) Canada - They have Fire/Ice but you usully have Symbiote so its 1 for1. I guess they can win if they start and stifle our only land. Otherwise this is very good MU. I didnt play very well but it was enough. Cool plays were when his tarmogoyf attacked and only then we realized that there might be 20 card in graves but its still only 3/4 so I blocked with Masticore. On my following turn I forgot to dicard a card. Great! Two easy wins.
2:0
3) Zoo - Two Symbiotes gave me like twenty-five turns until I whished for RF and went off. Then I mulled into 4 and he killed me. Well done. Last game I had combo T2.
3:0
4) Dragon Stompy - Do I need to say more? Did you ever win this one? Lets start with game two. He is reading Leyline for like a minute. I start with Llanowar Elf. Trinishpehre. No land in hand but I drew one. Then Archdruid which nullifies it and he has Jitte but no creatures... Actually I was quite lucky. Last game I didnt see Leyline in my one lander. In my six I kept two forests and Visionary. Chalice, Trini... Dead and buried.
This matchup really sucks. In theory if he starts with blood moon it can be gg as well.
3:1
5) B Merfolk - He wants draw (has 4:0) but that might not be enough for me so we have to play. I won the first one. In game two I hade leyline and lot of creatures but after he perished my board I had only Masticore with one card in hand. I had no other way then keeping it alive but he had vial and played mutavault every turn. He made some awful blunders like blocking it with LoA and Muta - I just regenerate it... THEN he read the card again.
Last game I fizzled after three pacts and I was quite happy to have enough mana to pay 12g. Time is called but I still have billion elves on board to kill him on my last turn backed up with joraga. He has two lands no creatures. He draws... Its underground sea and he casts Perish. Damn! On the other had he could have drew it one turn earlier and I would have lost. Alright.
31
6) Affinity - I need to win this one. Thank you Lady Luck. He is like twelve and I congratulate him for his good result so far. He cast his hand on turn two. Smiling. I do the same. I win. And again.
4
Top 8.
4fin - The Zoo guy again. He is very nice but his deck has almost no chance. I kill him twice quickly.
2fin - Merfolk. Without black this time. In the first one I mulled into five - 3 elves, forest, glimps. He had no counters... Last game of the day was another epic - he had a huge board - I wished for Masticore and he attacked (I am at 3) he was probably thinking its the game but I managed to block and only mishra gets through killing one of his lords. I am at 1. And another attack when his lord runs into Masticore again and then... He has nothing. Only mind harnessed quirion. He didnt draw anything else and I claim the final.
Quirion has been amazing. Returning redundant lands and thus keeping Masticore alive. Urzas Destiny rare has been just awesome. I dont know how old are you but I remeber times of type II Trinity Green when it was THE DECK smashing everyone. Every other player here doesent know it. Or better they think they know it.
fin - He is a frined and its too late anyway. BW Tempo wouldnt be a problem I belive. So we split and I am listed as a winner.
It was great tourney. I never wished for Tstodon. I am not sure how good it is aginst enchantments. Thera are lot of aggro decks here in Prague and I hate loosing against merfolk. This deck is simply great. And imho its the best deck right now. Thanks to K2thej again.
Tom
Hi everybody. I have all the cards I need to build this deck, I just haven't put it together yet. Before I do, I'd like to get some feedback on my hypothetical build. I have spent several hours browsing this thread, reading discussions on Concordant Crossroads, Cloudstone Curio, GSZ, Land Grant, Emrakul, ... you get the idea, basically every post by k2thej. So, here's where I'm at:
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Elvish Archdruid/Priest of Titania (need to test to see which I prefer)
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Birchlore Rangers
2 Concordant Crossroads
1 Regal Force
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Living Wish
1 Grapeshot
1 Gaea's Cradle
5 Forest
Wish/Side Board Rough Draft:
1 Emrakul
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terastodon
1 Caller of the Claw
2 Elvish Champion
2 Viridian Zealot
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
Looking for input, comments and criticism. k2thej I'm sure you've got something to say. You have a million posts on here. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
Why land grant over fetches?
and ya....I love this thread haha
lol 33 minutes after I post, k2thej replies. I love it. Thanks :)
Keep in mind this build is hypothetical at the moment. I have done no testing to back up my choices. I've only gone from what I've read on this thread. I chose Grant over fetches because:
Untaps Nettle
Adds to Storm
Can't Stifle
Many people argue that it's worse than fetches b/c of counter magic. I'll find out if this is an issue once I build and test it. However, my thoughts are that my opponent's would likely save their counter magic for Glimpse and Regal Force or what have you.
Also, I was thinking dropping a ESG for something, not sure for what yet.
Other than the Land Grant comment, do you see anything else that is questionable or could use adjusting? I tried to include a variety of win conditions:
Combo with Grapeshot
Straight up aggro with Warcaller
Wish for Emrakul if I have the mana <-- might try NO Pro instead, but then I'd have to dismantle my NO Pro CounterTop and that deck is pretty solid as it is
I'm still on the fence about Living Wish. It seems like it can give you a lot of wiggle room, but can it be a 1 of? I notice that of the people that choose to run it, most run 2 or 3.
Ya you can test land grand and see if you like it.
Generally one wincon is the way to go since anything more than that cuts down on your one drop count and thus affects combo consistency.
Wishes are great, and I would advise moving the cradle to the board to save MD spots.
I have never wished for eternal witness in all my testing, so I removed it. Test it and see but I never found her useful.
NO Ctop is great deck. Leave the prog in there haha.
Congrats on the win Tom! Great to hear!Hey guys,
I played a big tournament yesterday and Elves were just magnificent. I used K2thej wish list with slightly differen side:
4 leyline 3 thorn 1fecundity 1grip 1Gcradle 1Tstodon 1Vshaman 1masticore 1Rforce 1Emrakul
It was a qualification for a big money tournament and the winner got some byes.
1) Dredge - I was a bit late because my girlfriend didnt want to wake up and didnt have time to write down my decklist. I got gameloss for not having decklist in time. But then I realized I wrote it down into my notebook torn paper off it and here we go!
He started and I got completely smashed. I was bit worried because we have basicaly no side for this MU. Game two and three he kept slightly weaker hands, dredging didnt show him anything (Ioona is a GG) and I won easily.
1:0
2) Canada - They have Fire/Ice but you usully have Symbiote so its 1 for1. I guess they can win if they start and stifle our only land. Otherwise this is very good MU. I didnt play very well but it was enough. Cool plays were when his tarmogoyf attacked and only then we realized that there might be 20 card in graves but its still only 3/4 so I blocked with Masticore. On my following turn I forgot to dicard a card. Great! Two easy wins.
2:0
3) Zoo - Two Symbiotes gave me like twenty-five turns until I whished for RF and went off. Then I mulled into 4 and he killed me. Well done. Last game I had combo T2.
3:0
4) Dragon Stompy - Do I need to say more? Did you ever win this one? Lets start with game two. He is reading Leyline for like a minute. I start with Llanowar Elf. Trinishpehre. No land in hand but I drew one. Then Archdruid which nullifies it and he has Jitte but no creatures... Actually I was quite lucky. Last game I didnt see Leyline in my one lander. In my six I kept two forests and Visionary. Chalice, Trini... Dead and buried.
This matchup really sucks. In theory if he starts with blood moon it can be gg as well.
3:1
5) B Merfolk - He wants draw (has 4:0) but that might not be enough for me so we have to play. I won the first one. In game two I hade leyline and lot of creatures but after he perished my board I had only Masticore with one card in hand. I had no other way then keeping it alive but he had vial and played mutavault every turn. He made some awful blunders like blocking it with LoA and Muta - I just regenerate it... THEN he read the card again.
Last game I fizzled after three pacts and I was quite happy to have enough mana to pay 12g. Time is called but I still have billion elves on board to kill him on my last turn backed up with joraga. He has two lands no creatures. He draws... Its underground sea and he casts Perish. Damn! On the other had he could have drew it one turn earlier and I would have lost. Alright.
3
6) Affinity - I need to win this one. Thank you Lady Luck. He is like twelve and I congratulate him for his good result so far. He cast his hand on turn two. Smiling. I do the same. I win. And again.
4
Top 8.
4fin - The Zoo guy again. He is very nice but his deck has almost no chance. I kill him twice quickly.
2fin - Merfolk. Without black this time. In the first one I mulled into five - 3 elves, forest, glimps. He had no counters... Last game of the day was another epic - he had a huge board - I wished for Masticore and he attacked (I am at 3) he was probably thinking its the game but I managed to block and only mishra gets through killing one of his lords. I am at 1. And another attack when his lord runs into Masticore again and then... He has nothing. Only mind harnessed quirion. He didnt draw anything else and I claim the final.
Quirion has been amazing. Returning redundant lands and thus keeping Masticore alive. Urzas Destiny rare has been just awesome. I dont know how old are you but I remeber times of type II Trinity Green when it was THE DECK smashing everyone. Every other player here doesent know it. Or better they think they know it.
fin - He is a frined and its too late anyway. BW Tempo wouldnt be a problem I belive. So we split and I am listed as a winner.
It was great tourney. I never wished for Tstodon. I am not sure how good it is aginst enchantments. Thera are lot of aggro decks here in Prague and I hate loosing against merfolk. This deck is simply great. And imho its the best deck right now. Thanks to K2thej again.
Tom
zealot has already taken terastodon's place in my board for the same reason. Never went for him. Discussion was a few pages back.
My other question still stands. What is the ideal number of wishes to run, provided I choose to run them...? 2? 3? Just fine as a singleton?
That leads to my second question: What creatures are a necessity to have in a wish board?
I'll probably drop Witness for a Viridian Shaman, for when Zealot just won't do the job.
Edit: k2thej, have you tested Land Grant? If so, what were your experiences with it? What makes you disregard it?
I find 3 to be optimal, which is why I run 3 in my build.
Regal and Emrakul are def musts. the other creatures I run in the board I have found to all be awesome, but there are always other possibilities for the spots depending on what you like. My current side is:
4 leyline
4 thorn
1 emrakul
1 warcaller
1 shaman
1 zealot
1 masticore
1 cradle
1 regal force
Under what conditions do you decide to board in your Cradle?
Of those creatures you listed, in what order would you say they are most likely wished for, most to least. I'd assume:
Regal Force, Warcaller, Emrakul, Zealot
If I toss Regal and Warcaller on the side, that opens to spots mainboard for the 2 extra wishes. I like that, but paying an extra 2 for Regal Force makes me a little nervous. I guess I just need to shut up and test...
You dont board in cradle you wish for it
I play a regal and warcaller main and one of each in the board as well. It works great.
Land grant is nothing more than the poor man's fetchland in this deck. It also suffers the sever drawback of showing your opponent your hand... if it's vs blue they can easily decide if its worth countering and possibly recking your day, or perhaps some other deck will be able to pick apart the particular weakness of your revealed hand.
Forgot to mention that I run dryad arbor in place of one forest, since I run 4 GSZ main...
So fetching out forests and adding green from my cradles usually ain't a problem.
But I really don't want to start a debate which will result in nothing useful :)
I'm comfortable with my build as is, and it's not running summoner's pact. It's currently running GSZ and wish.
I also tested a build with GSZ, and I found it useful in some "non-combo/pre-combo" situations. However the big disadvatages when comboing off made me change my mind:
1) you have to spend 1 mana more
2) you don't get the elf in your hand so you cannot draw a card with glimpse...
Oh yah. Duh.
Very true. I'll likely drop it.
Next question: What about a singleton of Taunting Elf in the wish board?
If taunting elf had haste that would be a really great inclusion. I'm not sure how viable he will be since you have to wait a turn to attack though.
k2thej you never fail to respond. You must sleep with this thread open and have it set up to emit an audible alert to let you know someone's posted. You're gunna turn into an elf... :)
Yah but I run 2x Concordant Crossroads. Only wish for it when you have one on the board.
Also, I saw someone running Gaea's Herald instead of Leyline on the side. Seemed interesting but likely it's inferior. Thoughts?
The same guy ran 4x Essence Warden. I'm sure it's fun, but I wouldn't ever find room for it...
Yes, yes, I know, I am obsessed with this thread. We can move beyond this and continue discussion now.
The reason I think concordant Crossroads is not a good idea:
-one less creature when you are comboing for each copy you run
-doesn't actually help the combo since mana isn't the issue, it is cards, so it is essentially just a win condition
-The deck is designed with creatures that have abilities you can use the turn they come into play (heritage, birchlore, quirion, symbiote) so that you don't need haste. This is a big advantage of this deck; it plays like the creatures have haste without actually giving it to them. A card that gives all creatures haste is pretty much a wasted spot in this deck unless you want to use it as your wincon, but as discussion has shown, there are better options for that.
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