[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Esper3k]

I would presume Sylvan is main because it comes out significantly earlier than Jace?

Congratulations on the win! It's awesome to see the creator of a deck doing so well with his baby!

[Sims]

Thanks everyone, and omg what a stupidly ridiculous punt in that first game of the finals. So embarrassing. In my defense I was exhausted, but that's what they all say. Note to self look at life totals before making combat decisions.

I'll try to scrape together a tournament report tomorrow at some point. List was solid all around except I was very underwhelmed with Needle. Consuming vapors was awesome, and predict is insane.

Good job, Dan, and congratz on the finish.

I was super stoked to see a familiar name at the top of the Legacy event.

[nitewolf9]

Thanks again guys, and I'm going to try and get a report up tonight after reviewing some of the "notes" I took.

As for Library over Jace, I really want to have to option of shuffling away excess lands for gas in game 1 and forcing yourself to hit 4 land drops for 1 or 2 cards in your deck when they are not guaranteed to win you the game can be a pain. The other reason Library is better than Jace in the main is that library is actually helpful vs tribal, and helps you hit land drops when you are facing wasteland decks. It's also just as devastating vs any sort of control deck. Goblins was everywhere this weekend, and Zoo wasn't far behind. Jace doesn't seem stellar in either of those matchups, as good as he is against blue decks.

Maelstrom Pulse over Grip is actually something I have been seriously considering now that you mention it, mainly as it allows me to overload on removal vs junk style decks by playing so many roles in the board. I usually opt for the grips as they have become almost sacred cows in my sideboard, which is dangerous. With all the CB lists playing Jace it could very well be correct to make the swap. I was also considering Seal of Primordium in that spot, but pulse is probably just better. Seal was my solution for circumventing aether vial, standstill, and back to basics vs folk but that doesn't seem as important right now.

EE is played over deed mainly as you can split up the mana cost if you are stuck on 2 lands, which is very relevant especially vs the newer zoo builds with wasteland, and it is also a whole turn faster at blowing up 1 drops. Deed is strong but kind of slow. I mean sure, it's very strong vs merfolk and nice to wreck affinity's face with it, but once again it is high risk, high reward and I never felt that I needed it. Also, you can blow up knight of the reliquary when you have a goyf on the table with EE.

Consuming Vapors is indeed in the board for Zoo and Mid range decks like Junk, with some application vs natural order and show and tell. It really was a gigantic bomb, I loved having it in my board. The card lets you play the long game way more effectively and pulls you out of burn range nicely.

[wcm8]

Guess Glissa didn't work out in testing :)

I look forward to the report. How would you change the sideboard for a future tournament? Also did you just avoid graveyard decks, or were you still able to beat them despite any gy hate? Congrats again!

[GGoober]

Grats and solid list! more importantly, good piloting! :D

[GtF]

Clearly the solution to Grip vs. pulse, EE vs. deed, Jace vs. library, and all other card choice debates is to play 1 of each.

[nitewolf9]

Clearly the solution to Grip vs. pulse, EE vs. deed, Jace vs. library, and all other card choice debates is to play 1 of each.

Throw in a Seal of Primordium and we could have ourselves a deal.

[Dzra]

It seems like Affinity would have been really tough for you and I also am curious about the lack of GY hate. Goblins seems like it might have been a tough MU, but maybe Stifle and EE were enough to carry there?

[nitewolf9]

I beat goblins 3 times in the swiss. Goblins has a very tough time beating you, and it's always been that way.

Affinity isn't very popular, and despite them being favored it isn't by much.

I'm still not sure why I would need graveyard hate.

[sdematt]

How is your Merfolk matchup? When I first started playing the deck, I found I was weak against Tribal. How did you end up crushing your Goblins opponents?

Congrats again. Did you split prizes at Top 4 so everyone walked away with equal money, or did you play it out for the two grand?

-Matt

[nitewolf9]

We did a finals split, so it was something like 1300 each. Merfolk is pretty even actually. If you are playing needle it gets much better post board, but just having more removal helps a bunch. It's a close call but it is the type of matchup where you can gain a tremendous advantage from a lot of testing.

My games against goblins involved either me mana screwing them, hymning them to death, or just playing tombstalker and countering warren weirding (the latter is what happened the most). The problem is that they can't block Tombstalker with War Marshal and goyf can just sit there and hold the ground while you fly over. You just prioritize not letting them cheat guys into play and get tombstalker online asap. Then they die in 4 turns. This build is also very good at casting multiple stalkers. Stifle is insane against goblins as well. Tempo decks give goblins a rough time in general I think mainly because of that card. Also perish is really easy to play around when you have stalker.

[Esper3k]

Did you ever have any problems with T1 Lackeys? The deck does have 6 ways to deal with them on the draw. Would you sometimes just let them hit you and just Stifle the trigger?

[nitewolf9]

That did happen once as I had go for the throat for removal. I stifled the lacky trigger, killed it next turn and dazed warchief, then played tarmogoyf. Then tombstalker. Then won.

[wcm8]

I'm curious about the inclusion of gftt as removal over other options. Smother hits most relevant legacy creatures, including dreadnought. Ghastly demise is faster and hits most creatures. I am not doubting it's value, I just wonder how outside of opposing tombstalkers that it's better than the alternatives.

[ajfirecracker]

In honor of the first several pages of this thread:

Has anyone tried Psychatog or Vendillion Clique as creature 9-10?

[mich]

I'm usually playing 4goyf/3stalker/2clique, but I'm seriously consdering switching back to 4goyf/4stalker as the clique while good against combo and control decks, sukcs agains zoo and tribal and those are more difficoult matchups, but it depends on the meta you expect. I usually run a more controlish lists than the one from recent SCG, and wanting to hit 3 lands for clique/deed/pulse or 4 for jace makes you play a bit differently especially with your wastelands. Cutting all the expansive spells to be fully operational on just two lands might be the way to go though. I really like the inclusion of 2 predict in nitewolf9's list, upping cantrip count to 10 should be enough to cast multiple tombstalkers reliably. Psychatog is just not good anymore in legacy I guess.

[wcm8]

I will second Predict being insane. In most scenarios, it's a 2cmc instant that reads: draw two cards, also, get rid of one bad draw. It also has some corner-case utility versus decks running Enlightened Tutor and/or Sensei's Divining Top. Combos with the cantrips, Library, and Jace post-board.

I think a big part of the success of this deck is the remarkable consistency you get by running 10+ cantrips.

Edit: that, and a fantastic pilot!

[Mark Sun]

Congrats on the finish, Dan.

We left the venue before Top 8 and watched the first couple of games of the Finals, and I didn't even realize it was you until Medina was reading your decklist on the car ride home. The instant I heard "dude, he's running 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Predict," as funny as it sounds, I remembered your list. Nice job.

[wcm8]

Regarding the sylvan library slot: what about Mirri's Guile instead?

Pros:
A decent turn 1 play if you're not holding stifle (t2 library isn't usually what you want to be doing that turn)
Functions essentially the same as sylvan library
Can't be spell snared
You can decide to shuffle via fetchlands before going to draw phase, useful if all 3 arent needed

Cons:
Doesn't allow you to keep extra cards
More likely to get hit by explosives (often 1cc is what they get set at)

How often do you find yourself actually playing the extra life with sylvan?

This is all pretty minute since it is just a singleton slot. A t1 permanent sdt might just be incrementally better in this deck in those few times you actually open with it in your starting 7. Has anyone done comparison testing? If not ill give Dan's list some testing with this single change.

[JCLe]

Regarding the sylvan library slot: what about Mirri's Guile instead?

Pros:
A decent turn 1 play if you're not holding stifle (t2 library isn't usually what you want to be doing that turn)
Functions essentially the same as sylvan library
Can't be spell snared
You can decide to shuffle via fetchlands before going to draw phase, useful if all 3 arent needed

Cons:
Doesn't allow you to keep extra cards
More likely to get hit by explosives (often 1cc is what they get set at)

How often do you find yourself actually playing the extra life with sylvan?

This is all pretty minute since it is just a singleton slot. A t1 permanent sdt might just be incrementally better in this deck in those few times you actually open with it in your starting 7. Has anyone done comparison testing? If not ill give Dan's list some testing with this single change.

my 0.02$,
The best thing about sylvan library it that it auto-wins some matchups, while mirri's guilde does not. Sure, it provides card advantage the same way a top would, just like sylvan does.

The main thing to consider is your last point, where you said how often to you pay life. Think about all the matchups where you play a role in which you aren't taking damage, or where the extra card saves you 4 life and removes one to your opponent, that's how often you draw with it...

Also, library isn't the worst topdeck midgame, where as an enchantement that tops once during you upkeep just really doesn't do anything when you need a good amount of stuff to stay in the game (ie. getting a counter/removal + a threat). This argument can also be seen in this optic : you need 2 cards to win the game, mirri's guile will find you one, when library cycles itself (next turn) for 4 life...

Sure, it's hard to make mirri's guile sound bad but library is just strictly better, especially in this deck. Library gives you the real card advantage you need, while guile is just another turn 1 ponder...