[Deck] Elves Combo

[blind]

But to make vengevine decent, it is best to play fauna shaman with it. And intuition. And then we have a whole different deck.

You can play VV without Fauna and Intuition. Vengevine is just THE best solution Vs removal (Wrath, Deed, Perish, Firespout, ...) and is great Vs CB. VV is just good SB card in ElfBall that's obv! ;)

[1maarten1]

You can play VV without Fauna and Intuition. Vengevine is just THE best solution Vs removal (Wrath, Deed, Perish, Firespout, ...) and is great Vs CB. VV is just good SB card in ElfBall that's obv! ;)

Yeah I have used it a while ago and it really worked well. Ofcourse its slower without fauna shaman/intuition but its not like you are in a hurry vs control right? Ill test -4 thorn + 3 VV + 1 Krosan Grip.

[k2thej]

Yeah I have used it a while ago and it really worked well. Ofcourse its slower without fauna shaman/intuition but its not like you are in a hurry vs control right? Ill test -4 thorn + 3 VV + 1 Krosan Grip.

I like the idea of vines in the board too, but whatd you do against combo without thorns?

[1maarten1]

I like the idea of vines in the board too, but whatd you do against combo without thorns?

I had tons of games where I had thorn on the board and the storm player just killed me with ease anyway, without thorn I would just pray to get to combo t2, t3 if he opened something bad. Ofcourse turn 2 thorn might buy you the time to go off, but it also slows you down right? (meaning that it is a 2 drop, which you could replace with 2 elves or a glimpse + an elf etc.)

What I am trying to say is: The storm combo MU remains bad. With or without thorn. Leyline helps against counterdecks, but with VV alongside it, those MU's really become alot better. So I think I'd rather have a board that gives me wins vs CBTop + Removal (or landstill) than 4 cards that might help vs a deck thats faster then me anyway.

I never tested with Fauna shaman, So I am going to give it a go:
Spells
4 glimpse of nature
3 Summoner's Pact

Creatures
4 Fauna Shaman
4 wirewood symbiote
4 quirrion ranger
4 llanowar elves
3 fyndhorn elves
4 elvish visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal force
1 Emrakul
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Joraga Warcaller

lands
7 Forest
3 Misty rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Vengevine
2 Reverent Silence
1 Krosan Grip
2 Viridian Shaman
1 Masticore (these last 2 are just random slots so if you have a better suggestion please do so!)
1 Fearie Macabre

This list has 0 testing so please dont be to hard on me :P. Splashing white is possible ofcourse, giving Mirror Entity as kill. Dont think its needed since you can just grab Warcaller instead? 2 Cradle + Crop Rotation is also a possibility but I wanted to have a strong manabase and the deck performs fine without Cradle. The Intuition/Buried Alive versions are nice, but are more vulnerable to mana denial and those versions are just way out of budget for me with the Trops/Bayous/Intuitions. So Ill stick to monogreen for a while and see how that goes.

I am also currently playing the wish list, never played Fauna Shaman so I will test this list and just see how it runs. Any people that are familiar with a similar list please let me know what you think!

~Maarten

[k2thej]

I had tons of games where I had thorn on the board and the storm player just killed me with ease anyway, without thorn I would just pray to get to combo t2, t3 if he opened something bad. Ofcourse turn 2 thorn might buy you the time to go off, but it also slows you down right? (meaning that it is a 2 drop, which you could replace with 2 elves or a glimpse + an elf etc.)

What I am trying to say is: The storm combo MU remains bad. With or without thorn. Leyline helps against counterdecks, but with VV alongside it, those MU's really become alot better. So I think I'd rather have a board that gives me wins vs CBTop + Removal (or landstill) than 4 cards that might help vs a deck thats faster then me anyway.

I think you have a good point about the thorns. Does anyone else have positive experiences with boarding them in against storm?

[Darklingske]

So what would be your reasoning to play Fauna Shaman in this list? The fast tutoring? Or simply as PtE, StP bait? I know the synergy between Fauna & Emrakul, but is that the big reason for the switch?

[Darklingske]

I think you have a good point about the thorns. Does anyone else have positive experiences with boarding them in against storm?

I don't. Same as Maarten said. It slows them down a bit, but more often than not, they are still very well capable of storming out before we pose a threat.

[1maarten1]

So what would be your reasoning to play Fauna Shaman in this list? The fast tutoring? Or simply as PtE, StP bait? I know the synergy between Fauna & Emrakul, but is that the big reason for the switch?

No big reason ;) Just to try it out! I am very happy with how the wish list is performing, I was just curious how a Fauna list would play (fauna ofcourse being a little better with the VV from the board eventhough it will probably catch a removal spell asap, although if that means I get to keep my Symbiote's around it might be worth it.)

[Koby]

So what would be your reasoning to play Fauna Shaman in this list? The fast tutoring? Or simply as PtE, StP bait? I know the synergy between Fauna & Emrakul, but is that the big reason for the switch?

Fauna Shaman helps you setup if it stick around. Otherwise, it eats removal that would otherwise be directed at Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel/Wirewood Symbiote. Being able to tutor up lords is also a bonus. Granted, it's much slower in the Combo lists.

I think you have a good point about the thorns. Does anyone else have positive experiences with boarding them in against storm?

The few times I've gotten a chance to play storm, I lost before being able to cast Thorns. Their fundamental turn is just faster than ours, and often times faster than we can actually cast Thorns. They also play discard, which hurts our chances to resolve Thorns. I've been testing out Cabal Therapy as disruptiong (with the Bayou package). This could allow us to have enough disruption against such decks. It's also good in other matchups as well, like control or midrange. We surely have enough creatures to sac for it :)

It might just be a better option to run Savannah and sideboard into Silence/Orim's Chant as a mean to disrupt their combo turn.

The black options gives us:
4 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
2 Buried Alive
3-4 Vengevine (3 may be the right number)

I think this splash might be the best going forward. Intuition seems rather lackluster when you end up keeping 1 Vengevine in your hand, that would otherwise come into play with any 2 elves. On the other hand, Intuition allows us to tutor for whichever cards we want, like 3 fetchlands, or 3 Glimpse.

Any thoughts?

[k2thej]

Fauna Shaman helps you setup if it stick around. Otherwise, it eats removal that would otherwise be directed at Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel/Wirewood Symbiote. Being able to tutor up lords is also a bonus. Granted, it's much slower in the Combo lists.



The few times I've gotten a chance to play storm, I lost before being able to cast Thorns. Their fundamental turn is just faster than ours, and often times faster than we can actually cast Thorns. They also play discard, which hurts our chances to resolve Thorns. I've been testing out Cabal Therapy as disruptiong (with the Bayou package). This could allow us to have enough disruption against such decks. It's also good in other matchups as well, like control or midrange. We surely have enough creatures to sac for it :)

It might just be a better option to run Savannah and sideboard into Silence/Orim's Chant as a mean to disrupt their combo turn.

The black options gives us:
4 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
2 Buried Alive
3-4 Vengevine (3 may be the right number)

I think this splash might be the best going forward. Intuition seems rather lackluster when you end up keeping 1 Vengevine in your hand, that would otherwise come into play with any 2 elves. On the other hand, Intuition allows us to tutor for whichever cards we want, like 3 fetchlands, or 3 Glimpse.

Any thoughts?

I am def starting to really like the idea of vines in the board. Possibly buried alive as well. What if your MD was straight combo (No wish) and had 3 buried alive and 4vv in the board? So you take up 7 slots, still leaving room for 4 leyline and 4 grip or whatever you prefer.

[1maarten1]

I am def starting to really like the idea of vines in the board. Possibly buried alive as well. What if your MD was straight combo (No wish) and had 3 buried alive and 4vv in the board? So you take up 7 slots, still leaving room for 4 leyline and 4 grip or whatever you prefer.

I agree! The idea does seem apealing. 4 VV might be too much, 3 might be the correct number since that is also the number you can put to the grave with BA. 3 VV + 3 BA Seems nice. Maybe a sideboard like this:
4 leyline
3 vengevine
3 buried alive
2 reverent silence
1 krosan grip
2 Viridian Shaman

This ofcourse changes the maindeck,
1. We need a kill MD, Emrakul seems best although Grapeshot + E.witness is also a possibility if you are scared of peacekeeper.
2. The mana base; im thinking of 7 forest, 6 fetch, 2 bayou. Cradle or not? With or without Crop Rotation?
3. Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy main? I would opt Duress, I dont like losing too much life to fetches and Seizes. Therapy is great but for game 1 it seems like you would have to make a blind call too often? I could be completely wrong here, I mean: I truely loved therapy's back in the days when I played Dredge. Although it would kinda suck if you get too many of these in a row while you are going off, even though that will probably allow you to truly rape your opponents hand.
4. The ''lord'' package has been great for me so far being 2 Archdruid 1 Warcaller.

The Maindeck would be Straight combo with 4 slots of protection/disruption to maybe give you that edge you need against certain decks and the sideboard tuned to beat counters and removal spells. Sounds pretty awesome to me. Anyway lemme know what your opinion is on the sb/the 4 points I mentioned above!

[k2thej]

I agree! The idea does seem apealing. 4 VV might be too much, 3 might be the correct number since that is also the number you can put to the grave with BA. 3 VV + 3 BA Seems nice. Maybe a sideboard like this:
4 leyline
3 vengevine
3 buried alive
2 reverent silence
1 krosan grip
2 Viridian Shaman

This ofcourse changes the maindeck,
1. We need a kill MD, Emrakul seems best although Grapeshot + E.witness is also a possibility if you are scared of peacekeeper.
2. The mana base; im thinking of 7 forest, 6 fetch, 2 bayou. Cradle or not? With or without Crop Rotation?
3. Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy main? I would opt Duress, I dont like losing too much life to fetches and Seizes. Therapy is great but for game 1 it seems like you would have to make a blind call too often? I could be completely wrong here, I mean: I truely loved therapy's back in the days when I played Dredge. Although it would kinda suck if you get too many of these in a row while you are going off, even though that will probably allow you to truly rape your opponents hand.
4. The ''lord'' package has been great for me so far being 2 Archdruid 1 Warcaller.

The Maindeck would be Straight combo with 4 slots of protection/disruption to maybe give you that edge you need against certain decks and the sideboard tuned to beat counters and removal spells. Sounds pretty awesome to me. Anyway lemme know what your opinion is on the sb/the 4 points I mentioned above!

I don't even think you should waste the slots for disruption md. Just straight combo MD. Only change is one or two bayous.

[NihilObstat]

I think you have a good point about the thorns. Does anyone else have positive experiences with boarding them in against storm?

I guess I'm just lucky against Storm, but I have had this exact situation many times.
G1: They win turn 1-2-3.
G2: I start, land + mana elf, they don't combo, thorns, they try to brainstorm-tutor solutions, I try to cast-draw-looking for the second thorn or tutor for Gaddock and it's GG.
G3: The same, but they start, so it's harder. In this games my 2 Orim's chant help a lot. I just tend to win Ant easily.

I do run 4 Thorn, 2 Orim's chant and Gaddock only because my meta is very combo-full, but this is simply a meta-call.

I have been very busy lately, and haven't done almost any testing or commented here, but I see the thread is quite vivid and you are all sharing many ideas. Good for the elves ;)

[Darklingske]

so, past weekend elves made a top 16 appearence at SCG Open. His list was with vengevine and fauna shaman and intuition. It was a very diverse field and top 16. Always nice to see elves perform well!

[1maarten1]

I don't even think you should waste the slots for disruption md. Just straight combo MD. Only change is one or two bayous.

I took some time to test this morning/afternoon. My conclusions:
The 4 slots of MD protection werent really usefull the entire morning so I will cut those out.
BA+VV Was insane! One game I baited my opponents counters with Glimpse, the turn after that: BA resolves, 3 Vines hit the board and hit him for 12. He clears my board with Perish or Spout or smthn, my turn I topdeck a Llanowar + I had 1 symbiote so I bounced 1 elf back. The vengevines come back and destroy him.

1-2 Bayous: I think 1 is enough, eventhough it would suck having BA countered and your Bayou wasteland'ed. Sure you still have Birchlore then and you have to luck to draw another BA. They won't expect duals anyway since in game 1 you will fetch for just basics anyway.

I have been switching between Emrakul and Grapeshot+Witness which really doesnt matter if you ask me. Though being able to witness back a countered BA in game 2 seems nice. Ofcourse Grapeshot can get stifled, although I never found that to be a problem. Usually I can just witness and kill them with it in the same turn, or I Acidic Slime their blue land and then grapeshot. (I switched 1 viridian Shaman main for 1 Acidic Slime).

Here is what I want to play after this day of testing:
Lands: 14
7 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou

Spells: 9
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Grapeshot

Creatures: 37
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirrion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary

1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Acidic Slime
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Joraga War-Caller

Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Vengevine
3 Buried Alive
2 Reverent Silence
1 Krosan Grip
2 Viridian Shaman

Tell me what you think guys =)

[k2thej]

I took some time to test this morning/afternoon. My conclusions:
The 4 slots of MD protection werent really usefull the entire morning so I will cut those out.
BA+VV Was insane! One game I baited my opponents counters with Glimpse, the turn after that: BA resolves, 3 Vines hit the board and hit him for 12. He clears my board with Perish or Spout or smthn, my turn I topdeck a Llanowar + I had 1 symbiote so I bounced 1 elf back. The vengevines come back and destroy him.

1-2 Bayous: I think 1 is enough, eventhough it would suck having BA countered and your Bayou wasteland'ed. Sure you still have Birchlore then and you have to luck to draw another BA. They won't expect duals anyway since in game 1 you will fetch for just basics anyway.

I have been switching between Emrakul and Grapeshot+Witness which really doesnt matter if you ask me. Though being able to witness back a countered BA in game 2 seems nice. Ofcourse Grapeshot can get stifled, although I never found that to be a problem. Usually I can just witness and kill them with it in the same turn, or I Acidic Slime their blue land and then grapeshot. (I switched 1 viridian Shaman main for 1 Acidic Slime).

Here is what I want to play after this day of testing:
Lands: 14
7 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou

Spells: 9
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Grapeshot

Creatures: 37
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirrion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary

1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Acidic Slime
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Joraga War-Caller

Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Vengevine
3 Buried Alive
2 Reverent Silence
1 Krosan Grip
2 Viridian Shaman

Tell me what you think guys =)

I think running emrakul lets you have the 8th llanowar main, which is the difference for me. This is key post board because the llanowars allow for turn 2 buried alive.

Why acidic slime over shaman/zealot?

[Koby]

Usually I can just witness and kill them with it in the same turn, or I Acidic Slime their blue land and then grapeshot. (I switched 1 viridian Shaman main for 1 Acidic Slime).

I think running emrakul lets you have the 8th llanowar main, which is the difference for me. This is key post board because the llanowars allow for turn 2 buried alive.

Why acidic slime over shaman/zealot?

[1maarten1]

I think running emrakul lets you have the 8th llanowar main, which is the difference for me. This is key post board because the llanowars allow for turn 2 buried alive.

Why acidic slime over shaman/zealot?

Well there is a lot more than just Llanowar that can get you to turn 2 BA. The Llanowar on the turn 1 is really nice and 7 allows you to do consistantly do that although 8 will be fine also. Emrakul does gives you a chance vs PainterStone & Some high tide lists although those usually win through BSZ nowadays.

Acidic because it can lands like Chasm and Tabernacle. Viridian in the board so you can still pull the shaman+symbiote stuff. I really like the idea of being able to Witness back a countered BA so Ill just test with grapeshot and witness for now.

[k2thej]

@ruckus- You know what really grinds my gears? When I do things like that...

@1marteen1- I get slime for tabernacle and chasm, but it certainly seems like shaman main and slime board would be better judging by how often you see those lands.

[Darklingske]

@1marteen1- I get slime for tabernacle and chasm, but it certainly seems like shaman main and slime board would be better judging by how often you see those lands.

I have to aggree with k2thej. Shaman allows you to continue to tap for mana and it only costs 3 mana instead of 5.