How is your aggro plan better than Zoo's? They go t1 Nacatl, pass. You go t1 Llanowar, pass. They bolt your Llanowar, swing for 3. You go Quirion, Heritage Druid. They go Chain Lightning on Druid, swing for three again, drop a goyf. Now, after just a few turns, you have nothing on the field and they have a Nacatl and a goyf. You're also already down 6 life. Things only get worse if they drop a t1 Lavamancer....
I just don't understand how you're saying that you combo off that easily through disruption. If they Swords, Path, Bolt, Daze, etc. any of your creatures on t1/t2, you are NOT going to combo off by turn 2, and probably not by turn 3.
Now say you go first turn mana dork, second turn set up a glimpse, and third turn try to go off with a glimpse and it gets FOW'ed. You are not going to combo off until you draw into one of your three remaining glimpses. And your army of 1/1's will be laughed at by your opponents army of goyfs, War Monks, Pridemages, or you just get hammered by their Progenitus or Emrakul
I've had this experience many, many times.Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
This is why I play Vengevines. Having 8 spells that usually win the game on resolution is much, much better than just 4. When I play Zoo, depending on the hand, a) combo them right out, or b) if they can stop the combo with burn (probable), Intuition for Vengevine, and bash people with some plants.
Also, an update to my list: I think it's correct to go -1 Birchlore Rangers, -1 Grapeshot, +2 Elvish Archdruid in the main. Reasoning? When you combo out, you attack with 4 Vengevine+2-3 3/4 power monsters, which is lethal. Against decks that can block, you leave behind enough blockers to stop them, and kill them the next turn. Against decks with Swords, the same thing--what do they do about the rest of the fighters? Against decks with neither, if they survive, they're at a very low life total, and are left with no or fewer ways to combo out (Ad Nauseam and Grim Tutor are turned of, Belcher has to Belch, not Empty the Warrens), or an ineffectual one (e.g. "Emrakul? OK, sac 6 permanents. Are you dead?"). Archdruid also lets us play more Cradle effects without actually playing the land (which I never want more than 2 of).
If you read a few posts back, I corrected myself and said that I was referring to goldfishing. Yes, disruption can stop the combo.
I think the biggest thing overlooked by most people with the pure combo elves build is how fast you can see your glimpses. It's not like you are just waiting to draw them. You can cast a regal on t3 very easily without a glimpse, with or without a lord on the field, and you have 5 chances at a regal force with pacts, and 8 chances if you play the wish build. Add that to the visionaries recurred each turn with symbiotes which is a very easy tech to set up, and you can draw 2-3 extra cards each turn as long as you remember to bounce visionary during their end step so you have an extra symbiote activation. This deck sees a shitload of cards every game, with or without glimpse, and because of this glimpse is very easy to find.
As for removal, you need to learn how to play around it. If you are playing pure combo then play it like a combo deck, expect that there are obstacles for you to work around
This is a ridiculously common aggro play:
T1: dude
T2: dude, heritage (either from another land or through untapping the first dude with a quirion), cast archdruid (or summon archdruid)
T3: drop another dude or lord, swing somewhere between 6 and 16
T4: win
Thats a T4 aggro goldfish that is very, very easy to setup.
Let me throw out a common scenario I've come across:
You're on the draw with an opening hand:
Llanowar Elf, Nettle Sentinel, heritage Druid, Glimpse, and 1 Forest.
Which do you lead off with?
What if the scenario is 2 Forest?
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Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
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Why do you have a 5 card hand haha. Generally I lead with llanowar unless I see a turn 2 combo that can only be set up by leading with someone else. Llanowar is the easiest to recover from losing, so I generally put him out there as fodder for removal.
I've played many many games against my brother's elf combo deck with mono-red burn, and I can tell you that while I tend to have the advantage, Elves combo is very resilient to removal. A pure deck can certainly deal with the limited removal that Zoo has.
Regardless of Threshold variant though, CB =,
, and
.
I am not saying that the Vengevine + Intuition tech isn't a great idea. I am sure it can also work, but I am trying to make your realize that you should be more polite and check things out before talking non-sense.
So these have all top8ed in this last month, and these are just from one website, I'm sure there are many more, and some of them don't even run glimpse and could be considered plain aggro elves, I'm sure you don't think that "those are decks" either.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=41409
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=41425
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...6&iddeck=41367
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=41495
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=40945
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=40878
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=40605
All less than a month. But I guess it is okay, for you to say that without Vengevines we are not a real deck ;)
Also, not running a 1 turn win-con will make you feel ridiculous many games, losing for wining a 1 out of 60 cards consistancy.
I also invite you to actually testing the lists that most people run and see how they do aggro-wise. You'll be surprised. I am suprised myself.
To InResponseForceOfWill: It could have been worse with Pyrostatic Pillar and this card was actually played in many legacy sides some time ago.
To K2thej: We always have communications problems. So I guess I'm bad at expressing myself in english, or maybe we should try to read each other more calmly.
So what was your lastest Wish list looking like? I thought I saw a list not long ago on here, but I can't find it.
So your stop goldfishing, and playing at least on-line, which is nothing compared to tournaments, but better than goldfishing.
To TossUsToLions: I won twice in a row to a "Punishing Fire, Grove of the Brunwillows, Path, Lightning Bolt" Zoo.
One game he went: Grove + Noble Hierarch. T2/ Land + Hierarch + Punishing (Elf). T3/ Another Grove and another Punishing in Hand, with 2 Hierarch on table. But hey, he had taken so many creatures out of the deck for such removal, that I was able to combo through all that before he killed me. Glimpse, and 5 elves in hand. What I am doing, is showing you the worse possible removal scenario, which I had to face, and telling you that even that is winnable.
Spot removal sure does hurt us, but not quite enough. Only if we are foolish enough to try to combo turn 2-3 against Zoo with mana open.
I won twice in a row to a "Punishing Fire, Grove of the Brunwillows, Path, Lightning Bolt" Zoo.
One game he went: Grove + Noble Hierarch. T2/ Land + Hierarch + Punishing (Elf). T3/ Another Grove and another Punishing in Hand, with 2 Hierarch on table. But hey, he had taken so many creatures out of the deck for such removal, that I was able to combo through all that removal before he killed me. What I am trying to do, is showing you the worse possible removal scenario, which I had to face, and telling you that even that is winnable.
Spot removal sure does hurt us, but not quite enough. Only if we are foolish enough to try to combo turn 2-3 against Zoo with mana open.
I understand it is a winnable matchup, and sometimes a favorable one for some lists. I was merely pointing out a common scenario where we will not combo early on. If we are forced to aggro out against them, though, then it becomes unfavorable because they have a much better aggro plan than most of the "traditional" combo elf decks
I'd concede that in a metagame devoid (or light on) CB/Top, Combo Elves is pretty reasonable, and perhaps the optimal Elves! list. Aggro Elves is a deck, I guess, in the sense that it tries to do something better than other decks: it isn't just a bad goblins, it's goblins with an entirely different set of tools and tutors--I'm perfectly willing to look at those Elves lists, since their plan is so fundamentally different.
As for my own testing with "normal" lists--I played that list to death before Intuition/VV broke. I love the combo to death, and it's pretty cool what you can do--yes, I certainly have out aggro'd Zoo before. But I know from that experience that neither plan is very consistent, and both plans are susceptible to common game 1 disruption, and really, you're trying to mise a win in the next two games against many decks.
I'm just skeptical from my own testing that Combo Elves can ever beat a reasonable CB/Top (Dreadstill/4 color/etc.) deck in a 3 game match, and is a lot weaker to incidental hate--that is to say, Burn and Swords to Plowshares--than most people are willing to admit. In some sense, I look at the top8s these lists are in, and go "Well, if the metagame is favorable..."
I think Combo Elves is very much the metagame deck (which, I guess, makes it a "deck" I'd concede, but not a very good one), where I believe (but cannot show, outside of some SCG results) that Vengevine Elves is something that can breakout and become part of the legacy gauntlet, in some sense, as opposed to a fringe deck.
Hello everyone,
I have been playing Combo Elves for the past year and made a lot of changes to make a balanced deck for the metagame here. For the last 3 months, I am playing Combo elves with Splash Black and White (1 Bayou and 1 Savannah); white for mirror entity, SB dauntless escort and black for mainboard Tendrils of Agony and SB cabal therapy. I have 2 win conditions, either by Mirror Entity win or by Tendrils of Agony storm Combo.
So far, I can win on a few decks like Hypergenesis, Soul Sister, Reanimator, Zoo, ANT, Enchantress, 43 lands and affinity. I am really having a hard time dealing with Black Control and other variants. This deck is a very big disadvantage since my hand is already disrupted and creatures already controlled/destroyed. When my opponents plays Vampire Nighthawk or Bob, usually im at a big disadvantage. Most wins are just relying on my SB. My friend suggested me to place Bob in my SB and it worked for me once (since I got to borrow). Looks like the solutions for black is black as well.
My main concern is, are there any other options I can use to for these kinds of decks?
Why do you have two win conditions? How many people can actually stop storm? And of those people, how many can then win before you aggro kill them the following turn with all the elves you just dropped? I know this has been said before but It's a wasted spot to have 2 wincons, especially 2 MD.
The possible exception is VV because VV can win when your combo is stopped, so it is a very different wincon (which I still think takes away from the main combo), but that argument aside, it is surely a waste to run two wincons that both depend on comboing to work.
Here is a though that I just wanted to toss out there. I really love sideboard strategies that completely change the deck, like the recent doomsday tech being put into ANT's board. This could go either way for us, but you could have a completely concentrated VV strategy in one, and a completely concentrated combo in the other. It could look something like this. thoughts?
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Vengevine
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Buried Alive
4 Intuition
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
1 ?
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
I don't think that including both Buried Alive and Intuition together is very useful. Maxing out either one is fine, but 8 such cards in the deck has diminishing returns (esp once you use them up to get VV). I like the Intuition plan better overall, and would recommend playing that over Buried Alive... unless you plan on utilizing discard in the main/SB.
In this list, I think having 4 Archdruids maindeck is very necessary, as it gives the deck a stronger Aggro push. Any lord can be used here, but Archdruid gives you SB combo plan better footing.
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Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
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Ya I hadn't even tested yet but you are probably right. I think I will still go pure combo main and VV board though.
So, your current list no longer runs Wish? Or am I mistaken?
So you're currently no longer running Wishes? Or is that a mistake on my part?
I personally don't think that a primary VV plan in MD is a better aggro option than existing ones. seems to be too slow to attack in turn 3-4 for 8-12. especially because the concept is still vulnerable to countermagic & discard.
I prefer combo-version in MD (as reliable as possible) and tested K2thej's wish build, but I do experiment now with a differnt concept:
- No wish, but black in MD for thoughtseize (helps vs. alsost any matchup; especially good to remove FoW, dures, fast combo)
- Sideboard option of NO+Progenitus vs. control / sweeper matchups + more disruption, because migth take a bit longer
- zealot + eternal witness in MD to have some options vs. killer articacts/entchanments or to return a glimpse
-> -1 pact, +1 GSZ to have easy access to the utility creatures without the risk to pay 4 mana or to loose a turn, because of paying
Still some things I am playing around in SB & MD. currently looks like this:
// Lands
2 Gaea's Cradle
3 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
1 Elvish Archdruid
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Regal Force
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Eternal Witness
// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Thoughtseize
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith
// Sideboard
1 Progenitus
4 Krosan Grip
4 Natural Order
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Mindbreak Trap
...
@Darklingske- I have both the wish build and pure combo that I am testing. I do not think I want VV MD right now, but I am testing both to see which SB plan is better.
EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.
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