A quick Smokestack is definitely lights out. Did he never show you a Force of Will?Originally Posted by mchainmail
Sorry for the triple post, <forum problems.
Last edited by betterthenandrew; 03-18-2011 at 02:23 AM.
Played Lands! tonight at a local tourney. 24 people, entry fee was about $2.12 (1000 Chilean Pesos). First place was a Judge foil Dreadnought, second was a Judge foil Burning Wish, then after that there were some random Japanese cards from Jace v Chandra- Daze, Gush, Fireblast. Essentially you had to 4-0, and even then you might not get first. Either way its $2. Who cares.
I played:
4 Life From The Loam
4 Intuition
4 Exploration
3 Manabond
3 Entomb
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Green Fetch (1 Each)
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cephalid Colosseum
Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dark Blast
I'm not completely happy with my list, I recently cut red for black and the changes wer kind of a hack job. Gamble became Entomb, Flame Jab became Dark Blast, Celestnnade became Creeping Tarpit. Both red and black have their advantages, I'm still not sure which is better. I think Gamble is slightly better than Entomb (there are occasions when you fill up your hand with lands then gamble up an enchantment). I think Dark Blast is better than Flame Jab (basically here to kill Goblin Lackys and Noble Heirarchs, they both do that well, but dark blast can help dig for Loams). And Creeping Tarpit is probably better than Colonnade. I've never really liked Barbarian Ring. Losing Red makes Ancient Grudge a lot worse in the board, which isn't the best card ever but it has won me a few games, and is nice to force crypts/relics, shoot vials etc. That being said it might get cut now. Also didn't see a single person playing Dredge(or other grave based strat) tonight, so the crypts might also go. I really want a second Tabernacle, and I'm not sure what else. Ravens Crime might be fine. Or more combo hate. An Urborg should be in my main, to help with Mindslaver and Ravens Crime. I'm pretty sure Karakas can get the ax in my meta. Bob is an option from the board, but I'm not completely sure, good players know to keep in some removal for him, but he is pretty insane. We'll see what happens.
Anyways, the report:
R1- Mono red burn.
G1: My opponent wins the roll and t1 Chain Lightnings me off a Barbarian Ring. I drop a t1 Exploration, second land. t2 he Flame Rifts off the Barbarian Ring and a Wasteland and I entomb Tolaria West EoT so I can Loam it back, and t3 go get Zuran Orb. OF course i rip the Orb t2 because I am a master. I have exploration, Zuran Orb and loam, while still at 13 life. I ask him if he can realistically win g1 at this point because I don't like wasting time in the round, and he says yes, and t3's a Sulfuric Vortex. Thats bad for me. I t3 Tolaria West for EE, t4 pop it and he can't kill me on the spot. Hooray. Over the next few turns my life goes up and down as he casts all sorts of bad burn spells and I sac lands to ZOrb. Eventually he has 3 cards in hand and thinks for a while before going Lightning bolt you, float R off my other mountain Fire Blast you- I respond by saccing 2 lands staying at 6. He then casts the last card in his hand- Wheel of Fortune. Good Card. I definitely won that game
Side Board: -4 Maze of Ith, -1 Karakas, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, +3 Leyline, + 1 Ray of Revelation, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Chalice of the Void
Game 2: I t0 a leyline, and he t1 and t2 Goblin Guides. Guess I should have kept in those mazes :( (I convinced myself he didnt have any creatures, and was just running a bad casual burn deck, whoops.) I drop to 10 pretty quickly, flipping a land almost every time, before setting up Exploration/loam/Glacial Chasm/Zuran ORb. I K Grip his first Relic, but the second one is a problem. I don't want the Glacial to disapear, so I can't sac it. Eventaully I have to let it go, my oppent forgets to Relic, tries to PoP in response to the Glacial Chasm (sorry kids, you can't respond to land drops), and realizes the game is pretty over (I can tutor up EE this turn, and have a couple mazes in play in case he rips a waste). I'm pretty sure he was a little tilted after game 1, he clearly doesn't play much real magic, hence running wheel. He was still pretty cool, so its all good.
R2: White Stax
G1: LoL, White Stax. I don't think Lands! can ever lose this match. Like seriously. I win the roll and can either t1 drop a manabond, or entomb a loam. He t1's a chalice for 1, and I respond by entombing Loam. Loam makes sure I keep making land drops, while he doesn't have that luxury. I eventually EE away his Chalice (and a Mox Opal and a Mox Diamond) and drop a Mana bond, which I don't activate to protect some sweet spells (an Intuition) and he O Rings it :(. The next turn he Smoke stacks. He ramps his stack and i sandbag lands, I EoT Academy Ruins back an EE, which screws up his SS math and he is forced to sac the ORing, leaving me with a forest and Manabond in play, and a loam (and lands) in hand, while he had a single Plains he got off a Flagstones. From there I had no problem taking over.
Sideboarding: -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Karakas, -1 Zuran Orb, -2 Maze of ith, -1 Tabernacle, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Ray of Revelation, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Chalice of the Void
I saw an O Ring game 1, so wanted the Ray of Revelation. I bring in the chalice for all his moxes, and because I expect Crypts to be the hate piece of chioce here.
G2: He has t1 relic, I have t1 land, t2 mox, EE your relic, t3 K Grip your Crucible. He drops a second Relic, a 3sphere and a Magus of the tabernacle. I K Grip the Relic, don't care about the sphere, and take a few beats from the magus, which i am returning with a Creeping Tarpits. When I drop a maze of ith, and knock him down to 2 lands under his own sphere he concedes. Nice Deck. The only way he can really win is by catching me with no lands in hand or moxes in play and Armageddoning me. I played around that, except for one turn in g1 because he had 1 mana and no hand.
R3: Elf Ball
This match is pretty aweful. All basics, he can combo kill me out of no where. Not Excited. Before the game I realize he has 1 card in a different shade of green sleeve. Like clearly different, not even close. He apparently doesn't have a replacement, and its an unsanctioned $2 tourney, so I just swap the sleeve onto a different random card and away we go.
Game 1: I pretty much get the nuts (aka t2 tabernacle on the play)- I win the roll and t1 a land, go. he t2s a Nettle Sentinel. I t2 Tabernacle. I'm feeling pretty good, but its not over. I run a few Maze of Iths, so I am pretty safe. about t6 I can either Tolaria west for EE on t7, or Drop Glacial Chasm (which he is probably just cold to). Of course I get greedy and EE and promptly lose. His board was 4 forest, 1 Nettle Sentinel, 2 Wirewood Symbiote, 1 Quirion Ranger. He lets a Symbiote die, drops a land, plays Glimpse, plays a Heritage Druid and I scoop pretty quickly. I am retarded. If I play that a bit safer I definitely win. FML.
Sideboarding: -1 Karakas, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Ghost Quarter, -1 Zuran ORb, -3 manabond, +1 Engineered Explosive, +1 Chalice of the Void, +1 Etherworn Canoninst, +1 Dark Blast, +3 Krosan Grip
g2: I t2 an Ethrsworn Canonist, then EE away his board. He gets a few beats in but concedes at 18 life after the board is basically locked by recurring EE. I think I chaliced for 1 also?
g3: My opponent durdles around a bit when I have Chasm + Loam + Enchantment. I'm pretty sure he has no answer in his 75 (but maybe I'm wrong, maybe he has an Acidic Slime or something). At some point I realize he might be playing Ravenous Trap as his Grave Hate, as I haven't seen anything and he keeps looking at his hand, so I play around the best I can, but eventaully just have to hope he doesn't have it (and he never did cast it). At some point he "goes off", drawing a bunch of do nothing cards, and putting a bunch of dudes in play to die to my Tabernacle. He pacted that turn so I EE away all his 1 drop elves (read most of them). He has no mana elves left, and 4 lands in play. He pays for his , the rest of his team dies. TIme is shortly called (they don't give warnings, and play 45 minute rounds). On t5 of final turns I assemble the Mindslaver lock, but he won't concede because apparently his buddy came and told him in the middle of the round he was 3-0 and he wanted to help his buddy. Awesome. As a draw eliminates us both I concede, drop and leave. Except I dont get dropped because the guy doesn't hear it, but its unsanctioned so I don't care. I feel bad for the guy left standing around waiting for his opponent though. Hopefully the good karma gets me into heaven or something.
Overall I was pretty happy with the deck. I don't want more moxes, still not completly sold on the entombs (though my foil entombs are pretty sexy). The Zuran Orb is pretty clutch, but the other Silver Bullets main look pretty useless in this meta (mostly fair creature decks). My notes were a bit lose, and i may have made a few mistakes here and there. Played 7 games, should have won them all. Hopefully next week goes a bit better.
The changes I want to make:
-1 Karakas, +1 Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth
-1 Ancient Grudge, -3 Tormod's Crypt, +4 Dark Confidant
Like I said, Bob is insanely powerful, but I'm still not completly sold. Probably better than Manabond in most g2/3 though. I saw a couple Time Spiral decks floating about (budget- no candelabra), and various 3 color beat down decks (Bant, Junk, Zoo), a RW slighish deck, a High Tide Mirror, a Dragon Stompy, a couple tribal decks. I don't really have a plan for High Tide other than hope Ports + Canonist get there (spoiler- they won't). But I'm not sure there is much that can be done here, maybe raven's crime? Chalice for 1?
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
Very well written article. While I disagree with a few things (the inclusion of Extirpate and Enlightened tutor for example) I still think its a great starting point for potential lands players. Defintiely a contribution worth having, thanks.
any reasons why you do not like the inclusion of E. tutor and extirpate?
i never played lands and now, after reading that article completly, iam wondering what lists are the best to start with..
iam gambling to build lands.deck ;D
Why specifically don't you like Extirpate? E-Tutor is fine, as there are massive play style differences between the builds. But Extirpate? What would you rather see in that slot?
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
hi micheal, congratz for ur primer!! very very very very nice!!!! :D i love it!!
now some question:
- what about MU Jace landeed??
how u kill jace, avoid pernicious deed, and in g2 there are for him extirpate, life from the loam, thoughtseize, counter counter and counter, ecc. before with mishra's factory u could play under standstill, but now?? ur consideration about this?
- enlighteed tutor: very powerfull card vs aggro and combo, but vs controll u play it in eot for an artefact, him play counter on ur artefact and u lost the draw and this is very very bad for ur hand. the artefact go in graveyard and we can play ruins again and again but in this point we are more slow than a control.deck!! vs control.deck we need more card-advantage, bob is very good but we need another advantage: an hand/manipulation!! the same hand/manipulation that can win vs combo. some cards for example: revan's crime, but it is only an example. some idea about this? what do u thing about an hand/manipulation in our deck?
- in term of strategy there are 3 kind of enemy: aggro - controll - combo. so main strategy vs aggro is destroy their land for a lock with some artefact or tabernacle and our deck work very well about this. control and combo deck are very different, i want the same strategy for both. the easiest way is manipulation their hands but in our deck there aren t slot/way for this strategy and we can try to choose different ways/strategies but all this different strategies are always more difficult tun by turn in our game. combo and control plays counters, discard effects, bounds, removal and mass removal, how we can wins with EE or oblivion stone and 2 krosan grip vs controll??? we do their strategy, don t have sense this.. when i play my hate vs combo the combo player smile T.T the combo MU is a nightmare!! so micheal can u tell me your strategies vs controll and combo??
tnx u very much and sorry for my bad english, i m an italian player who love play land!! :P
Congratz, indeed. One question, have you found E-tutor + Entomb tutor engine significally better than the set of intuiiton + tutor (gamble, entomb, crop rotation)??
Enlightened Tutor makes the deck a pretty different style of deck. While I love the card E Tutor in general, I feel in lands having consistent access to Loam is by far the most important factor to winning the game. While Crucible plays a similar role, its not nearly as powerful. Ultimately the deck is just different from U Lands, though I don't see myself putting down my intuitions anytime soon (unless super agressive decks take over the format).
As for Extirpate I have never felt it is legacy playable unless you can some how take advantage of the fact its an instant (such as Cunning Wish or Mystical tutor). The card is almost always card disadvantage, and has no impact on the board. The only archetype that is really shut down by Extirpate these days is Loam based decks. It also has value against top deck tutors, but there aren't really any decks that rely heavy on top deck tutoring at the moment.
Using Extirpate against wastelands will certainly make the game a bit easier, but not enough enough to justify having to run the Extirpate and cast it. Extirpate does nothing against their first waste, unless they have recursion. The only decks that can get enough Wastes consistently to justify attacking them are Knight of the Reliquary decks, but you are running Meekstone and Cursed Totem to answer him. With tight play it shouldn't be that difficult to win through even a pair of wastelands consistently. The "waste their dual, extirpate it" play while cool, isn't really needed. Against the decks that are GG'd by it we already have a pretty insane match up as they are generally super weak to wasteland recursion. If you ever draw the card after they drop a second green dual (because lets be serious, its always going to be a green dual) it does nothing. Getting to see their hand is not worth a card. Or even a mana. Play tight, understand what kinds of cards they might have and play accordingly. Mono U Merfolk might have b2b, Goblins might have Blood Moon, etc. Keep them off 3 mana, bring in Grips/Ray of Revelation/EE, Fetch your basic, get a mox or bin a Riftstone Portal.
Basically Extirpate makes games you should win already easier, or lets you play loose because you gain a small amount of knowledge. Basically tight play does everything Extirpate does, but for no mana, and with out requiring a card.
Good day everybody. First post, yay!
I've been watching this thread for a long time and now I finally decided to contribute. I'm a lands player for couple of years now. Here is a brief match report from local 30 player tournament.
R1 UR Merfolk splashing lavamancer and bolt
G1 He plays only one lord of atlantis and couple of bolts. I generate advantage with manabond and loam. After finding zuran orb he makes a wise decision to scoop early.
SB: +2 Grip +2 Extirpate for manabonds and something.
G2 He Mulligans to five and keeps a hand with no blue sources plus vial. I promptly start to abuse tolaria west and loam. I find tabernacle accopanied by maze. Several turns later he has one or two permanents and he concedes.
1-0
R2 Splashy boros with double strikers + stoneforge mystics
G1 I draw multiple Intuitions and just go nuts. A blowout.
SB: Grips and maybe chalice just for value. Out goes couple wastes since he played mainly basics.
G2 I almost stabilized with intuitions but in a certain turn I fetch a tabernacle with tolaria west instead of zuran orb. He had about ten basics and couple beaters. I lost to his next attack.
G3 I lock him out early and time is called shortly after that.
1-0-1
R3 NO Bant /w zeniths (makes top4)
G1 I resolve a quick Bridge via e.tutor. I keep recurring bridge with ruins and he scoops after running out of answers.
SB: +2 Confidant and something I can't recall.
G2 He has t1 relic and I start with t1 Confidant. I start to gain advantage of Bob but few turns later I make a dumb decision. I attack into Scryb Ranger. He takes the game after that. I watched the opponent playing last round so I should've been playing around that ranger.
G3 He has quick beats backed up with disenchant effects.
1-1-1
R4 Belcher
G1 He was scouting my deck earlier and makes 16 tokens t1.
I sideboard eleven cards.
G2 I keep a hand with lands and loam. He makes t1 n tokens but I topdeck tabernacle like a champion. He almost gets me with one token of a land but I find a wasteland for it. Later I draw into Canonist. He bursts out belcher but doesn't have enough mana for activation. I promptly find needle via tutor to stop that and I take the game!
G3 He goes again t1 for some amount of goblins. I keep a hand with three e.tutors and couple lands. In he's end step I find EE and play it on my turn for 0 and crack it. In subsequent turns I find null rod and needle. After extirpating rite of flame which hits one in hand he scoops.
2-1-1
R5 Doomsday
I hadn't played this matchup ever but it was really interesting. All sorts of interactions was going on. Lands have several tools fighting this deck even with maindeck, namely karakas and bridge. Game one I had a chance to win but I lose mainly due sloppy play. G2 and 3 he starts with Leyline. G2 I take the game with fast confidant beats and disruption. G3 I lose to pithing needle naming karakas.
Final score: 2-2-1
Overall the deck was performing very well. It's meant to be played well and it punished me hard time of bad play several times. With sloppy plays I lost unloseable match against bears and with tight play I won an unbeatable mu. Enlightened Tutor was a real thing. Really worth it throughout the tournament. I didn't like cutting Intuitions so I played both. Intuition is just a so broken in this deck. Daze and spell pierce is easily played around so I cannon't justify not playing it. In sideboard Boseiju also helps. It hits intuition, loam and e.tutor so it seems really valuable. I haven't tested it at all so these arguments are purely theoretical. I mainly inteded to side it it against Counterbalance since counterbalance and two on top locks you out.
As a sidenote caw-blade won the tournament with perfect record. Sick deck. Flying ancestrals seems good.
That's about it. Last but not the least, the list:
4x Maze of Ith
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Forest
3x Tolaria West
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Academy Ruins
4x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
4x Mox Diamond
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Intuition
2x Manabond
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Smokestack
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Zuran Orb
1x Ensnaring Bridge
SB:
4x Dark Confidant
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Null Rod
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Oblivion Stone
2x Krosan Grip
1x Pithing Needle
2x Extirpate
Cheers, Tuomas.
did you lose any important cards/plays while having 3 slots for e-tutor in your maindeck?
Hi there!
Great primer about the deck. It was really usefull. But I have some questions, didnīt you notice a lack of lands in the deck? I mean, playing just 34 lands was enough? I have made some changes in your list for my playtesting and things look quite well. I removed the meekstone, sensei's top, 1 explosive and 2 fetchlands to add 1 mindslaver, 1 rifstone portal and 3 mishras factories.
The Mindslaver wasnīt on my lists until now, but I felt it was great now that my meta was evolving to a slower one, with plenty of landstill decks that run things like moat, bridges or that kind of things... The rifstone portal was auto-included for helping to cast mindslaver sooner and because of many players here are starting to run moon effects even maindeck. I am pretty happy with this changes until now, but I still have a lot of testing work.
The other change was because of I wasnīt pleased with only 34 lands and only 1 win condition, because many times if you lose the first game you have to run to have time to win the others, so I added the 3 factories, I cut the 2 fetchlands because I always play 3 in my lists and have worked well. Maybe I will try to add some other lands instead of the factories in that slots, but I canīt think of other lands that are as usefull as them.
For the rest of the list I am really pleased. I am the kind of lands player that doesnīt like to dredge all the time, so this list seems quite solid to me with entomb and e.tutors.
I also have a question, do you think sensei's divining top is really that good? it was the hardest decission to make for me, because it looks quite cool with loam and cycling lands, but I wanted to have more lands and I think thereīs nothing else to remove, but maybe you can make me add it.
I removed the 2nd e.explosive because there are so many varied costs in the aggro decks right now and with smokestack in the deck y always wanted to lock with it rather than recurring a lot of explosives.
PS: Sorry for my english but it has been a lot of time without speaking it :)
I support you concerning the land count. Less than 36, 35 as an extreme sounds me wrong...it sounds like a deck with high a amount of lands instead of a land deck.
@goldencid:
Your name sounds familiar from other forums. are you spanish? if you are, how do you see this deck for our metagame? It's pretty different from the american meta and I think here can make real pain to a great part of the metagame.
No, i'm not spanish but latin. And yes i visit other forums in spanish.
On the other hand you're right our meta is quite different than in usa. We have lot of aggro: zoo, burn, tribal, affinity; Aggro control: dark / new horizons, NO bant maybe loam. And i a third place combo / control: Belcher, dredge, landstill. So i think that yes, lands isa good deck for this meta call. We can win to aggro and aggro control and control but against combo it's more difficul (post board i have 7 cards for this MU). Lands and enchantress are good decks for my meta i think.
Okay.....need insight.......can't seem to find a resonable defense against storm combo other than Chalice. But even that can be bounced if first not set to one. Was playing with the idea of stifle and to just wait till they try to combo. Any ideas? I hope to find an answer before SCG's open in ATL next weekend, all input will be helpful, thanks.
Did you ask me if that spell could resolve?????
-Team HRW-
High Roll Wins
You won't have a chance unless you devote 10 slots to it, or are playing against a bad pilot. Even with 10 slots, you still shouldn't have a chance. E tutor gives you the best options for post board hate though
Just tested trinisphere against it, seems good
Did you ask me if that spell could resolve?????
-Team HRW-
High Roll Wins
Here's my view: Board enough that bad players are going to have issues, and hope to mise wins. I'm 2-0 against storm at Jupiter Games with my current list. Simply because I played mediocre pilots and got lucky.
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
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