My Wishless Sideboard
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pact of Negation
2 Snap
1 Repeal
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
1 Reins of Power (trying it out, it seems like it would be spectacular in a couple of matchups)
The Pacts aren't good! they are brutally good!Originally Posted by leegoo
Leegoo: your sb is a little excessive focused on aggro don't you think? (don't take this in the wrong way)
I've come with the same. Pact has been pretty solid for me post sideboard. Mindbreak trap is sometimes just nuts as well.
I actually think it's fairly balanced. With the exception of reins of power (which isn't a serious sideboard card) the only true anti aggro cards are the snaps. Wipe away is more for the tempo based counterbalance decks (Probably don't bother bringing it in against the more control based versions however)
Echoing truth is a concession to dredge. Getting crushed by 2/2's is still certainly possible, even with 3 ravenous traps. Repeal is just really good a LOT of times as you know :)
Yap but you already have 3 Ravenous trap! (I am mentioning this because i start to not boarding it on the merfolks match since we really need card draw and i don't know what else to sideout vs merfolks - i side out fow and cc)
you may indeed be right... the lack of "cantrip" spells after boarding is a problem.
Vs. Merfolk at the moment I am siding
-1 Remand
-3 FoW
-1 Twincast (although it would be the same slot as cc in your list)
+3 Pact of Negation
+2 Snap
Replacing FoW with Pact weakens you to "stopping" them from advancing their plan, but strengthens your "going off" turn... which you would be holding FoW for anyways. Snap is basically a Remand that works when Vial is in play, with a bonus if they activate manlands.
Still, the match is just rough I'm afraid.
Vs. Dredge I'm siding
-3 Remand
-1 Twincast
-1 Brain Freeze
+ 3 Ravenous
+1 Snap
+1 Echoing Truth
Taking remand out vs dredge? i think it's a mistake... I agree with you on taking it out vs merfolks since they can use vial but also let 2 stay just in case right? (they could stifle our storm).
I think against dredge, while Remanding a Dread Return is fire when it happens, I'd rather keep in Force of will and have a better shot at taking out their t1 discard outlet. The problem with keeping remand in is that, if they have you, it's a turn too slow to stop them, and if not, you generally aren't in that bad a position anyways. I suppose if I were on the play game 2 (or game3) it might not be bad to keep in. Have to test some more.
Merfolk is a bit different, where they don't (usually...) have a "big turn" you can afford to try to play the tempo game with them. Even Remanding something silly like a standstill can really help. Also, Snap into Remand is just great when it happens vs. the fish. I keep in the 1 force because I feel in this matchup you don't want to have less than 4 "free" counters to fight with. I may actually make my 15th SB slot a 4th Pact, just to make it easier to move to this board plan. (-4 force +4 Pact in matchups that you don't want to use counters on anything but your "going off" turn)
If they board in very much hate (most of the lists that have been doing well don't) it makes a tough matchup downright terrible IMO. Fortunately most lists can't bring in much (haha...their maindeck is already pretty optimal for this match :) )
Like i said earlier im picking this deck up and running with it because i like the way it wins. But could someone please explain briefly how to beat No-Show? 4 emarakul and 3-4 prog?
counter show and tell or natural order :) That should keep them from killing you.
But, if I'm not mistaken, you are referring to being "unable" to deck them... right?
First, Don't worry about milling a progenitus. It's fine. (for now)
Emrakul presents a bit more of a problem. You need to have more than 1 brain freeze plus the Blue Sun Zenith to kill them at this point.
Assuming it's the point where you have began combo'ing, and you are fairly well through your deck (to the point that fizzling is very unlikely)
You should have more than 1 brain freeze in hand, along with way (card drawing, flash, etc) to find more and find the BSZ.
-Brain Freeze, Targeting your opponent. He removes cards until Emrakul is revealed (if it's progenitus, again, it's fine, let it shuffle back in) at which point, you respond to Emrakuls Ability with either another Brain Freeze or the Card draw/filter to find another BF. You continue on. At a certain point (with a couple of Emrakul triggers on the stack very likely) You cast a Blue Sun Zenith for lethal.
It's also possible to just Skip the Brain Feezes altogether and BSZ them to death... although it would take a considerable amount of Mana.
With the "normal" version of the deck (wishes) it's a little easier as you have md access to Ravenous Trap. In the wishless version you just have to play tight and have a little luck game 1. Games 2&3 (where we get 3 ravenous traps) are a bit easier breathing.
(edit)
you can remand your brain freeze as well... not sure if you were aware of that or not.
Last edited by leegoo; 03-24-2011 at 02:31 PM. Reason: needed to add some stuff...
@ Leegoo
Thank you, this is more or less what i assumed was the path to victory against No-Show. It just seems like it wouldnt be easy to accomplish but i shall soon find out for myself. the remaining cards i need for the build should be in tommorow. hopefully i will be about to use it this weekend. i feel i have a solid understanding of how the deck works bc ive been reading as much as i can but piloting is always a different story. but any other tips that are more advanced/not easly noticed would be appreciated as well.
thanks again
first, what does your list look like?
I was planning on starting with a list like yours a few pages back until i can get a better feel for the deck, to make slight changes of my own. I thought cryptic command would be good in the deck but for now i will leave it out. but why dont you like it if i may ask?
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
3 Brain Freeze
2 Repeal
4 High Tide
3 Meditate
3 Remand
3 Opt
1 Peer Through Depths
12 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
SB:
1 Blue Sun Zenith
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Twincast
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Brain Freeze
1 Tolarian Winds (This is just absolutely a wasted slot.)
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Dispel
2 Snap
Why might I ask is barely anyone or no one playing spell pierce in there main in the 2 of spot? I used to play solidarity as my only legacy deck for about 2 years, then got on ANT when the deck had mystical, and i was thinking of coming back to solidarity. The deck seems good as no one is running counterbalance really anymore. It seems as though the worse match-up now is Team America as the have counters, discard, and a good clock. With spell pierce it seems as though we can counter all but the guys and without the disruption they are prolly not fast enough. I guess what I am asking is has someone tested this and just found it to be not good enough?
On Cryptic - It depends on how you play. Seraphus (and many other good pilots of the deck) runs 2 of them if I'm not mistaken, and likes them. It's not that I dislike CC... I do. It's just that I like a third Turnabout and a Twincast over them (in my current build). Part of me thinks it's because it's how I "grew up" on the deck. If there were more Countertop decks in my meta, I'd probably Maindeck the Cryptics.
Solidarity is a fickle deck. Cards that work great for one pilot may just work terribly for another... as some people like to run 3 High Tide main and one as a wish target... which I think is just the pits... but it works fine for them.
As far as that list I posted goes, I'd make the tolarian winds into another mindbreak trap, and probably the Peer through Depths into another opt.
On Tricks - there are tons with this deck, but it's very difficult to tell them to somebody. The things I can think of offhand...
- After a brainstorm, it's often right to just brain freeze those two cards (and a random) off the top. Other ways to get rid of a brainstorm include impulsing, flash of insighting, cracking a fetch, or (although its a poor use) opting through it.
- Its usually wrong to use your filter cards until you *need* to - or have a plan as to what you are digging for. Many games can be lost to Impulsing "just because you can" throwing 2 land to the bottom and keeping a reset, then missing a land drop two turns later. Sometimes it's also right to main phase a cantrip in an attempt NOT to miss a land drop.
- High tide (usually) gets priority over reset / turnabout when you impulse into both... as there are fewer high tides than untap effects.
- Solidarity is a very odd deck. It's control, tempo, and combo rolled into one. As you'd think, it's not the best at any of them, but can perform adequately as whichever is needed.
- You need to have a good understanding of the other decks in Legacy, and what kind of damage they can put on board the next turn, or the next after that. You have to be two steps ahead to have a shot at winning with Solidarity.
the problem is that spell pierce isn't strong *enough* in enough matchups to be main deckable. The main thing against it is that it doesn't cantrip. (In almost all lists of solidarity, the only non land cards that don't cantrip are the actual combo cards... even then it's sometimes hard on us since only BSZ, Meditate, and a flashback FoI create actual card advantage) For that reason, most people that include a card like that run Disrupt. Then if we're talking about the board, in most matchups I'd bring in pierce, I'd rather it be divert, as it absolutely houses Hymn to Tourach (albeit not duress)
vs. Team America is a lot like the Fish Matchup. Sometimes, they just draw the right amount of threats + disruption... and that just beats solidarity most of the time (In all honesty, most "decks to beat" strong to excellent hand beats all but solidarity's god hands). However, they can also get some draws that just don't do much. In that matchup I'd bring in the max number of Pacts and be a bit more aggressive with my force of wills and remands early, banking on the pacts for the turn I "go off".
I've just goldfish Seraphus's cunning wish-less list, it is interesting and odd at the same time. Being used to have acces to my sidebord toolbox and hunting pack, I felt incomfortable. I won't deny that it is a area to explore, though.
I have already said in that post that I am a fervent advocate of Stroke/BSZ maindeck, and that was the principal reason I decided to try Seraphus's build.
After a few tests, I removed 1 brain freeze and add 1 BSZ. I wanted to see if we could abuse that card. In a perfect world we can cast BSZ and draw another one, play some resets and high tides, then cast the second BSZ and with some luck obtain the first one. On paper it sound sweet, and on my few goldfishes it was too. But I was wondering if that little trick was just a win-more trick or a genuine one able to give us some consistancy. After all I was able to draw 2/3 of my deck multiple times. But it's 2 dead cards pre-combo.
Folks let say it again: the wish less list is without doubt amazing!
Indeed leegoo the wipe away are amazing! But dispel is equally good! So i decide to keep both in my sb:
2 divert
2 snap
2 wipe away
3 ravenous trap
2 mindbreak trap
1 repeal
1 dispel
2 pact of negation
Firefraise: I don't think that adding a second BSZ is a good idea, it raises the average cmc, and it's not a very good card pre-combo, it don't had any kind of solution to precombo treats...
I would like to add a little quick note: I give up the 2 cryptic command in main board since we no longer need to tap anything of our opponent field... If we need to bounce something repeal is as useful as cryptic and more adjustable...
So does this mean you simply pack 4 repeal in the main deck atm??? or the 4th opt/brain freeze/remand or 3rd turnabout??????
Greetzzz,
Nop my list is:
4 high tide
4 reset
4 impulse
4 brainstrom
3 opt
3 remand
3 brain freeze
2 flash of insight
3 meditate
2 three wishes (testing)
4 Force of Will
3 turnabout
1 BSZ
2 repeal
2 Mistu Rainforest
2 Polluted delta
2 Scalding tarn
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