@Star|Scream:
The most important trick is just to vial him in to rfg one of your blocker before damage or before a sweeper/removal. Vial in to rfg sculler on the stack might be useful only if you know the opponent doesn't have anything to disenchant with LRW, otherwise I doubt it'll be worth it.
You should just remember that those are not game winning moves, but mostly things that might help in dire situations: in usual scenarios you won't need them.
The Jitte one is interesting, but I can't figure a situation where I have a charged Jitte and want to make sure to disenchant something. Still we have to be creative when playing such interactive decks!
About discard, apart from Ad Nauseam/IGG/NO/Humility/Ringleader/TimeSpiral/Turnabout there's nothing else (that I recall right now) that you might want to get rid of. If you try the deck you'll notice that the life loss might be an issue, but I like to be able to hit those targets. Obviously if you don't face them you can change the ratio of the discard spells... as well as the sideboard.
Budget shouldn't be a factor in building a deck. Have a friend lend you cards if you have to =P Also, we're not speaking about duals/candelabras (what a ripoff) price range.
“My power is as vast as the plains, my strength is that of mountains. Each wave that crashes upon the shore thunders like blood in my veins.” —MemoirsOriginally Posted by Vacrix
Well For $70+ more, there better be a good reason to run thoughtseize over inquisition. Not only that, but my primary reason for asking was the lifeloss. So if thoughtseize is strictly better, then no, budget won't be a factor. However, if two cards have their own merits and one also happens to be $16 less each, yes I may want to test the cheaper one as well.
Thoughtseize can get Force. Thoughtseize can get Jace. Thoughtseize can get Moat. Thoughtseize can get Tendrils. Thoughtseize can get Ill-Gotten Gains. Thoughtseize can get Time Spiral.
How is this even a debate?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
nvm
So I played it yesterday going 3-4 and pretty much feeling miserable about it. Gonna write up a trip report here in a sec and post tonight.
Deck:
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
7 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serenity
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Round 1: John with Goblins
Game 1:
I keep a hand on the play with a turn one thoughtseize, mom and stoneforge I think, no STP. I lead with the thoughtseize and see he’s on goblins with lackey, matron, vial, mogg war marshal. I take the lackey as I have no removal and I don’t like laying a blocker out there and hoping they don’t have/draw removal. He might have had gempalm as well, not sure. The whole game rested on a misplay by me. I get out a mom and stoneforge and get jitte in play on the stoneforge with him having nothing in play still. I think he got stuck on land. I swing in with the equipped sfm and he vials in mogg war marshal. I go to make my sfm pro red in response so he can get thru but he asks something about the order of everything and I get confused and end up saying that the war marshal guys are in play. I’m a moron, he gempalms in response to my pro red and its rape from there.
Game 2:
Board in two plagues and take out two canonists I think. I keep a hand with mom and sfm. I roll out the mom and then stoneforge then another mom I think and all he has is two lackeys. He scoops when I equip jitte.
Game 3:
I hate knowing I’m against goblins on the draw cuz I feel like non-stp hands are such a huge gamble. He decides to mulligan though and I decide to roll a solid hand with inquisition, hymn, and musta been sfm probably. He leads Aether Vial and I sigh relief. I take his matron or warchief with the inquisition and he plays war marshal on his turn. I drop hymn and take his last two cards. I draw plague third turn and drop it and that ends it pretty much as I drop sfm the turn after.
Matches: 1-0
Games: 2-1
Round 2: John with NO Bant
Game 1:
I don’t remember as much about this one other than I end up playing out two dark confidants and hitting a bunch of shit to hurt me. I died from my confidants like a turn away from gaining control. I’m pretty sure I made mistakes here by not chumping enough to keep my life total higher.
Game 2:
I end up getting nighthawk with jitte and sofi and take it down easily.
Game 3:
He goes turn 1 heirach, into two turn and three Rhox’s. I get a confidant out and I think two moms eventually but die to my confidant again just before gaining control.
Matches: 1-1
Games: 3-3
Round 3: Rob with Merfolk
Game 1:
He’s on the play and leads with cursecatcher and I just don’t remember disrupting him much. I know he dazed at least one vampire nighthawk. I got the other one down and he steals it with sower of temptation as well as dropping a kira and rapes me.
Game 2:
Pretty much the same thing. I think I get out two vampire nighthawks but he beat on me early and I can’t swing them without getting destroyed in return and he overwhelms me with mutavaults and creatures.
Matches: 1-2
Games: 3-5
Round 4: Phillip with Rock
Game 1:
He leads a dark confidant on the play, I don’t have swords and I don’t draw removal for a year so yea.
Game 2:
I think I mulligan at least once here and don’t find anything great. He starts off kinda slow but eventually just beats me down. Oh yea I played several things but they just kept dying to go for the throat and swords.
Matches: 1-3
Games: 3-7
Round 5: Eli Theo with Enchantress
Game 1:
I keep a hand with thoughtseize, hymn and a tidehollow. I destroy his hand and I think he gets down a sylvan library and a wild growth. He hits a blood moon, WTF, off the library and I have fetched up all duals cuz last time I checked they didn’t run blood moon. I beat for 2-3 turns with tidehollow before hardcasting sofi and going to town.
Game 2:
I bring in 4x serenity and some mix of canonists and edicts. He mulligans to 5 and drops a leyline of sanctity but no lands. I play nothing I think until turn 4 when I vindicate it and he has like a chrome mox maybe at this point. I destroy his hand with hymns and such and he dies.
Matches: 2-3
Games: 5-7
Round 6: Leonard with Thopter Foundry UW
Game 1:
I drop a ton of discard on him, he gets out foundry with sword of the meek but it take a while and I vindicated one of them to slow him down a bit. Just barely get lethal on the back of a sofi before he makes too many tokens for me to handle.
Game 2:
Bring in 4x serenity and 2 plague for 4x STP and 2x of something else. I draw an opener with plague,serenity and mom I think. I beat some early on but he drops a ensnaring bridge. I’m holding the serenity still but he has academy ruins and I can’t force through lethal on one turn. I chill and he largely does nothing. I keep drawing with confidant looking for vindicates and wastelands. Finally hit a vindicate and hit the ruins. I drop serenity next turn right after he drops EE for 1. Serenity goes off taking his foundry, mox opal, ensnaring bridge with it. I drop two tidehollows and along with a nighthawk they go to town.
Matches: 3-3
Games : 7-7
Round 7: Alex Bertoncini with what do you think?
Game 1:
He mulligans to six. I pass on a real slow hand knowing hes playing merfolk. My 6 has one land and it’s a wasteland. Go to 5 with mom swords plains vindicate something. I draw 3 vindicates in a row and die.
Game 2:
I mull to 6 this time and he keeps his initial hand. I lead with mom and have at least two swords. He plays out a vial and a dude or so and then drops kira. I don’t feel like I drew much and he ran me over.
So that’s it. I felt overmatched mostly the whole day. I thought my merfolk matchup was pretty solid but I think I was used to the vial list I played before cuz it was rough with this one. I was expecting a lot of combo and obviously played none.
My sideboard was pretty worthless other than the plagues and serenity. I brought in edicts against enchantress, merfolk, and Bant but they were pretty bad against Bant cuz he had arbors, hierarchs etc. Really wished I had played perish in the board as it woulda easily won games for me against Bant.
Wish I had given Phyrexian revoker a shot in the canonist place as it would have been better against merfolk and goblins. I really hated nighthawks. They are just too expensive for what they do. I had originally had 4x vial and 4 avenger but when I went to no vial the avenger mana cost was too much. I figured nighthawks would be good since they are gonna come down about the same time anyways but avenger dodges daze easier, leaves mana open for swords, and can swing/block at the same time.
Hymn was really good all day and I’m glad I moved it into the list. It gives that extra little bit of disruption over my previous lists. I felt like the number of mom, sfm, and equipment was perfect. Vindicate was the other card I pretty much hated. It’s so good in some matchups and just so terrible in others. I’m probably gonna go back down to 2 or 3 where I had it before.
As far as I where I go from here with the deck, I’m gonna try a few things. Def gonna see how revoker changes the game, maybe go with vials, revokers and avengers. I just hate dropping aether vial first turn. I feel like we get so much less mileage out of it than goblins/merfolk. I much prefer dropping a mom or first turn discard. I feel like goblins uses it to explode later and merfolk can drop it and still have counter backup to prevent shenanigans. However I know it improves the goblin and merfolk matchups as well as countertop etc so I might go back. On the other hand, I might try out a more traditional deadguy list that’s super aggro/disruptive. We will see.
P.S.
I also saw this deck around me multiple times throughout the day with vials in it but that was also at the lower tables so I dunno. The deck just seems underpowered so that might be why I go with a more high risk/powerful version.
If those are the only cards we're worried about then we should just play duress.
Personally, I agree that thoughtseize is the correct card, but it's not for any of those cards. But for the sake of discussion, let's run through a couple of the matchups.
Against Tendrils...Tendrils is not the card I take 90% of the time - it would typically be LED, AdNaus, or a tutor (most of which can be taken by IoK OR Duress).
Moat's a bitch - but it can be taken by Duress as well.
Against SpiralTide, I'm typically looking for either cunning wish or high Tide - they always have too many time spirals anyway...they often pitch them to force or brainstorm them away. This is generally a horid match for us anyway because our wastelands do nothing and brainstorm neuders discard. There is really no right choice for our discard in the matchup - it's a 30% match regardless of what we take. The only way this match improves is if we have something that cat put a "real" clock on quickly (something that isn't a bear), and then somehow protect it with our discard (around brainstorm).
Against anything that runs force of will - I never take force of will. I'm sure everyone will say I'm an idiot for this, but honestly, if I make them discard a threat and they are left having to 2 for 1 themselves against another threat...that's fine, it's such a tempo gain, especially because our decks run bears...so they are left countering dinky spells 9 times out of 10, just to keep from getting blown out, because I've made them discard their only chance of racing. So honestly, not being able to take force with IoK is a pretty minimal loss in my book.
Jace...is a whore. He needs to go if you see him. He bounces scullers and sets a clock all while providing card advantage. It's slightly dependant on hand, but generally if I see this card I have to take him with discard. IoK obviously cannot do this, Duress and Thoughtseize obviously can.
Where Duress fails is against the aggro matches. However, I feel that in most of these matches IoK shines over thoughtseize because of the life loss, and the fact that there are very few 4+ mana threats in agressive decks. I'd like to pull out lackey if i see it in a goblin hand...but obviously duress cannot do that....but it can get vial...against fish I just want to take a lord out of their hand (they can have force, and I can play around daze)...but I can't take a lord with duress.
Wait...did I say I prefer thoughtseize? oh yeah...sorry, back on topic...
Where thoughtseize really shines? the unknown. We can theory craft all day about which discard spell is better in the known matchups...but the reality is that thoughtseize offers the most versatility in the matchups we can't talk about. Between Thoughtseize and Scullers I run 7-8 discard spells that can take anything out of my opponents hand, statistically I'm going to see one in my first couple of turns - it's pretty powerful IMHO. When we all start talking about cards with built in limitations - Grunt, Serra, Duress, IoK, etc...we are building in limitations to our decks that make our matchups even more difficult - especially against decks that we know nothing about. And it creates situations where we have more cards that we need to board out in some matchups...personally I'd rather have the versatility in the maindeck so that I have the fewest dead cards in EVERY matchup. This didn't used to be such a big deal when there were 4 decks in legacy that won all of the events...but there are way too many decks right now, the format is way too open. Versatility reigns in the current environment.
I agree with most of your assessment. I also feel Vial is underpowered, Vindicate is generally just an over-costed removal spell (in most matches), maindeck revokers are the way to go, and Perish is a must-have in the board.
I disagree about your assessment of Nighthawks and Hymn, but it could be a matter of perspective. Personally, against 90% of the decks I face I'd rather have the 3rd and 4th scullers than the Hymns...i generally find that hymn feels like it's doing something great, but does nothing to apply a clock and doesn't necessarilly gain tempo - it does great things for attrition games that go deep into the mid to late game...as long as you draw it early and they have the cards to discard. What I'm saying is that I find hymn's upside to be very situational.
Nighthawks - I only sort of disagree with your assessment. I agree that they are a bad finisher. i don't agree that they are necessarilly a bad card, or the wrong card for the deck. In my experience this is the card that gets me to the late game against all the aggro decks (especially when paired with mom), which is saying something. However, if it were Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary, I would probably win a hell of a lot more matchups against combo and decks that I can't put up an effective clock against. This card is one of the best and one of the worst cards in the deck, IMHO it is one of the cards that define the deck as it currently stands - it is a primary factor is making the deck good against aggro and bad against combo...but that's just my opinion. If you want to give your opponents a clock, I would suggest adding more powerful creatures, but I would not suggest cutting this card unless you want a worse matchup against aggro. I will say that if you play with this deck enough with 4 nighthawks, you will win games solely because you are playing nighthawks, there are times when they simply win you games.
high risk/reward...if you don't like vials...do a straight swap for Dark Rituals - especially if you are going to stick with Hymn. I think there are stil a TON of options to be explored with this deck. As for the deck being at the lower tables...I wouldn't read too much into that. Like someone else said, it's the cheapest and easiest deck to port into from other formats or from other legacy decks - so there are a lot of people new to the deck or even new to the format that are trying to pilot this deck, many are bound to fail, especially if they don't know the format.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Not sure if this kind of discussion is allowed here but what do you guys think about this card in BW Dead guy:
Hex Parasite
Rare
1
Artifact Creature - Insect(?)
1/1
X{PB}: Target a permanent. Remove up to X counters from that permanent. ~ gains +1/+0 until end of turn for each counter removed this way.
({PB} may be paid for with either or 2 life.)
This card was spoiled from New Phyrexia
Synergizes rather well with Jotun Grunt, good to stop opposing Aether Vials, Jittes and planeswalkers. Can be pumped even if the targeted permanent has no counters in it.
Unless I'm missing something, that would not be the case.
Also, if I'm reading it correctly (and it's translated correctly), your opponent can "fizzle" some of the pump by removing counters at instant speed. In the case of Umezawa's Jitte, they can always just remove those counters to gain life, or more likely (unless your Parasite has more than 1 toughness or some type of shroud), they'll just kill your Parasite. It's pretty hot against a lot of other cards though.
Unless I'm missing something, that would not be the case.
Also, if I'm reading it correctly (and it's translated correctly), your opponent can "fizzle" some of the pump by removing counters at instant speed. In the case of Umezawa's Jitte, they can always just remove those counters to gain life, or more likely (unless your Parasite has more than 1 toughness or some type of shroud), they'll just kill your Parasite. It's pretty hot against a lot of other cards though.
Ah yes I forgot about the part of killing a creature with Jitte, but it would force a jitte user to remove a counter in response to this card.
Yeah it has a lot of uses against alot of other cards as well and as bonus it can synergize rather well with Jotun Grunt by removing the age counters on it. Can kill anying Planeswalkers as well disable opposing Aether Vials. It only cost 1 mana thus we won't get hurt with Dark Confidant with it.
Playing bad cards to make ok cards good isn't the right way to go. The mana requirement to activate it makes it pretty bad. On top of it being a somewhat useless ability. Stopping Vial is nice... I guess. The question really comes down to: what are you going to take out to put this in?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
What do you guys think of this build?
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Go for the throat
2 Doom Blade
2 Disfigure
4 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Marsh Flats
This may be closer to Dark Zoo, but it's been working for me in testing. Plentiful Creatures, Removal, and Discard. Thoughts?
It's posts like this that make me regret even discussing a third color. It just opens the door to anything - this deck shares roughly 10 cards with 90% of the deadguy builds that are being discussed in this thread right now (excluding land). Getting people to talk about this list intelligently here will be very difficult.
I'm not going to say this is a bad deck (and I don't think it is, or rather I haven't analyzed it enough to make a decent judgement), and I'm not going to get into specific card selection because ultimately I just don't think this discussion belongs in this thread. I do have some light opinions on it if you are intested in talking in PM's.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
I think this is the fundamental principle for building Deadguy (or any sort of 'fair' deck for that matter): use good cards. Make a list of good cards and use that pool. I see Deadguy as essentially playing the best tempo-oriented cards in b/w. If we are talking about Phyrexian Negator vs. Mother of Runes, well, that's on track because both are GOOD cards, and can strategically do similar functions.
With that said, comparing mediocre cards (I won't say bad...there really aren't any 'bad' cards, just bad choices for different decks) is also fundamentally neccessary in Legacy. The format dictates many of the deckbuilding rules that must be followed. Look at a 'meh' card like Elvish Visionary...basically crap outside of combo elves, but in combo elves creates a card-drawing engine with Wirewood Symbiote. Look at Ichorid...worse than useless outside of Dredge (well...maybe in a monoblack aggro deck...but for 4 mana you get Abyssal Persecutor, so yeah, only good in Dredge lol) Hell, look at Wasteland!!! It doesn't gain you anything but tempo...but in legacy, that halt in tempo is all you need in many cases to work out a win. Plenty of cards start out as 'mediocre' and become 'awesome' because of their implications in the format.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
@ Troopatroop's list:
Is Domain Zoo coming back to the meta? xD
I don't consider splashing a third color to be taboo, but just because you have the ability to do such doesn't mean you should try and run every amazing card from the varying colors. Part of Deadguy's strength against decks such as Rock is that we run an efficient card base off of just two colors so it takes us less time to stabilize while still being able to pack a solid package of 8-10 discard, StP/Vindicate, and card tempo via Bob. That having been said, our decks primary weakness is that in exchange for the insane stability Mom/Grunt and our various spells grant is that we lack notable beaters to put the opponent on a short clock. Yeah, swinging at the opponent with a Nighthawk wearing equipment can be a game buster but ultimately pretty much all our creatures lack the "stand alone," characteristic we see in 'Goyf/KotR/Terravore etc.
True, black does gain us access to afordable evasive beaters such as Tombstalker and Abyssal Persecutor but both have obvious downsides for the deck. 'Stalker, costing 8, means he can only be run as a 1-2 of in conjunction with Bob, and Persecutor requires us to run a greater number of kill outlets to compensate for his ability (although MDing 1-2 Go for the Throat might useful anyway as I forsee the meta shifting to more aggro in relation the rise of midrange decks like Rock).
I hate to sound like one of those "OMG Spl@$h teh 'G0yf een eVery DEck1!1!!" adovocates, but 'Goyf is an efficient beater that requires next to nothing of an investment and he is one of the only third-color creatures that would require us to alter next to nothing to fit him him. Maybe do a manabase of:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Plains
That's the manabase I'm currently running. I chose the Savannah over the basic Forest because I see little point in adding a basic that can only be used for 4 cards of the total deck. Especially considering we run so many color-coordinated cards (W, BB, 1BB, 1BW) so having a land that cannot fulfill the color aspect ended up hurting me. 3 on-color lands that also fix B/W has fulfilled the function for me thus far.
As of right now I'm running 4 'Goyf as is the standard, however I'm considering scaling that # down to 3. I've found Mom to be essential in my mirror/Junk MU's so I was rather reluctant to cut her. I'll most likely bump her up to 2 and cut the 4th Top I'm currently running.
Anyway, I'm going somewhat off topic. I ultimately don't think splashing a color is bad for the deck as long as it provides a useful function that doesn't disrupt the strategy for the rest of the deck. Adding a 3rd color such as I've done helps to solve one of our inherent weaknesses while still keeping the deck running exactly the same as the pure BW build.
Forlorn Egoist
Is nobody interested in the new Phyrexian Cancellor spoiled from New Phyrexia?
BBBB
Creature - Horror
5/5
Trample
Whenever a source deals damage to ~, that source's controller sacrifices that many permanents.
My main concern is that it's going to be difficult to play outside mono black, but some Deadguy lists only run 4 Scrubland and no plains, so maybe it wouldn't be too bad.
In the same vein of Deadguy having no good finishers, maybe we can use that to our advantage with Retribution of the Meek? Deals with Progenitus, Emrakul, Dreadnought, Tombstalker, and most of the time with Goyf and KotR.
When I saw this card, I considered the possibility of running it, but sometimes I have a hard enough time even finding BBB for Gatekeeper of Malakir's kicker, (outside of drawing my only Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth). Plus, with all the exile and destroy effects, it may not be worth it.
It's not bad in a sense that it's totally unplayable, but it's more like a card that is worth testing. The mana requirement for the ability is not that hard to use, eventually if you don't have life you can just activate it with mana and vice versa. It does not stop Vial only, but stops planeswalkers, jitte, ravager, smokestack, coralhelm commander and others. We'll just have to wait and see.
I have already thought of this guy, but the cost really restricts us from playing it. Adding in more Urbirg just play this card is really not worth it.
Retribution of the meek is a really interesting card, it won't kill our guys most of the time, but what would you take out for this?
I think the question is what does this take care of that Perish doesn't? A swarm of goblins, fish, or affinity I'm guessing or a cheated emrakul? I think we have better answers (except for the emrakul) already.
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