[Deck] The Rock

[Derm]

I'd like to start a very specific discussion about this deck: discard strategy.

Discard is what makes Rock strategies viable against a field that includes Combo and counterspells. We all know it's important. But let's talk about how to approach it.

Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Inquisition of Kozilek

These are the three spells we'll be working with. Obviously Duress and Gerrard's Verdict show up from time to time, but I think we can cover them by talking about the others.

Topics for Discussion
1. Is a hand with no turn 1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition keepable in Legacy? And let's go through the different scenarios. What about when it's game 1 Round 1 and you don't know what your opponent is playing? What about once you know they're playing a Combo deck or a semi-control deck like CounterTop? In what matchups is it okay not to have that turn 1 play?

2. What are the cards we want to target in each matchup? Against ANT and other combo decks, do you take tutors? Dark Rituals? Cantrips? Against CounterTop, do you take Counterbalance or Force of Will? Against Zoo, do you take Wild Nacatl or Tarmogoyf?

3. Is a hand with a turn 2 Hymn but no targeted discard a good hand? I know this can be situational...what are the situations? In what matchups would our over-reliance on turn 2 disruption kill us?

4. Turn 2: Hymn first, then plan to play your Bob on turn 3? That seems standard. In what matchups might it change?

5. When is it correct to sandbag discard spells? For instance, a late game Thoughtseize or Inquisition to clear the way for your Knight or Goyf or Terravore can be great, taking away a counterspell, a piece of removal, a Sower of Temptation, etc. How much should we keep our foot on the gas with disruption? In what matchups do you want to just blow your load and cast 4 discard spells in the first 3 turns?

[bfeingersh]

Dropping some of my hand disruption for some more removal. I have been playing 4 Seize/4 Hymn/2 Inquisition/1 Verdict and sometimes I feel like I'm flooded with discard spells and nothing to hit.

Creatures:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Terravore
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Qasali Pridemage

Instant:
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantment:
2 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalker:
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Artifact:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives

Land:
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats

-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Inquisition
-1 Verdict
+1 Karakas
+1 Elspeth
+1 EE

While I think having a turn 1/2 discard spell is pretty much essential, I want some more tools that can be used both offensively and defensively, and don't feel dead as the game goes on. Elspeth seems awesome on paper as she can dump out infinite blockers or let me finish the game in a couple turns.

Also, added Karakas for Dryad Arbor as I have cut my GSZs and Emrakul decks have been showing up in my area. Still working on a plan for Progenitus, I think I'm going to board Retribution of the Meek at the GPT in Boston next weekend.

[sdematt]

Isn't Retribution some sweet tech I discovered? :) It also works double duty on Tombstalker, Terravore, Emrakul, etc.

For discard, I think having 8-10 main is necessary, with 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn being standard unless you're playing infinite creature removal, then I'd say you could go down 1-2 Thoughtseizes for 1-2 Duress/IoK, but that'd be more Deadguy.

I think if you can Hymn on T2 and go with BoB on turn 3, that's the better play. The only time I can see that not being wise is against a deck that's already got down a key third turn play already, and you need to catch up.

I don't think you have to have Thoughtseize to keep a hand, but I think you need a turn 1 play or a very strong turns 2-3. Example: Would you keep: Top, Hymn, Fetch, Scrub, Forest, Vindicate, something else? Probably. Top is a good T1 play, in my opinion. Even if you have a turn 2 play and can't top that turn, topping turn 3 for an excellent 2 drop on turn 3 is good as well.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

I've found myself running a 1/1 split of Inquisition (Thoughtseize #5) and Path to Exile (Swords to Plowshares #5). I like it, but really, those 2-3 flex spots are personal preference and meta calls.

[sdematt]

Agreed. I've got 4 flex slots (where my 1 EE, 2 Path, 1 IoK are sitting at the moment).

-Matt

[Sintheros]

Isn't it 3 flex slots? Or are you playing 24 land?

[sdematt]

I'm playing 24 lands to make up for the Mox.

-Matt

[publius_aelius]

I don't know guys but it seems to me that your line of thinking is too narrow. As you can see, rock decks didn't show up in top16 of the last few scg opens. combo decks did. in spite of hymns and thoughseizes. Maybe we need to reconsider our strategy and try more creatures with cabal therapy?

[Arsenal]

Discard doesn't do much without a fast clock to back it up. Combo is just too resilient and redundant nowadays for discard to matter with no pressure on them. If this trend continues, I anticipate people dropping their Elspeth/Jitte, Pernicious Deed, and a Inquistion, freeing up 4 slots for more creatures.

[keys]

Discard doesn't do much without a fast clock to back it up. Combo is just too resilient and redundant nowadays for discard to matter with no pressure on them. If this trend continues, I anticipate people dropping their Elspeth/Jitte, Pernicious Deed, and a Inquistion, freeing up 4 slots for more creatures.

For Sculler. I don't understand why this guy isn't played in more Rock decks.

[Derm]

For Sculler. I don't understand why this guy isn't played in more Rock decks.

I think Sculler's good, but he's mostly good in decks like Deadguy. Without equipment, he's just another Thoughtseize because a 2/2 isn't a relevant clock vs. combo.

So, about Combo...

I agree that a fundamental reconsideration of Rock strategy vs. Combo might be in order. Perhaps it's having more creatures or whatever. There are lots of directions to go. BUT the truth is that Rock decks are still going to run some discard. So let's talk about what to target with discard.

ANT - Obviously you take out Ad Nauseum, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Tendrils of Agony if you see them. Barring that, what's the best target? Dark Ritual/Cabal Ritual? Brainstorm and other card selection/cantrips?

High Tide - I assume you take out High Tide, Reset, or Turnabout

Aluren - Aluren, accelerators, Imperial Recruiter?

Imperial Painter - Grindstone, Painter's Servant, Imperial Recruiter

Show and Tell - Show and Tell

Let's talk specifics like this. And post your personal strategy for other combo decks I didn't list.

[RexFTW]

How to beat combo:
Discard a key card with thoughtseize/duress then extirpate it. This does not always guarantee a win but it can slow them down a LOT. Also use extirpate to shuffle their deck if they brainstorm in response to discard.

Waste landing your own stuff can accelerate your clock with knights.

extirpate the tutors or win conditions:
Hugh tide, timespiral or cunning wish
Tendrils of agony, doomsday, shelldock isle, infernal tutor, emrakul, ill gotten gains

The next best option is leyline of sanctity, as this will probably be totally unexpected the first time you pull it out.

the show/tell etc lists you bring in your edicts or tarrifs or retribution of the meeks.

The painter deck can only win with very fast blood moon or grind. The discard + vindicates + swords make this a nightmare for them, esp if you have a mox diamond.

[Skub]

I am thinking of replacing Engineered Plague with Kitchen Finks in the sideboard. I think overall Finks is in general more usefull than Plague. Especially in aggro matchups. What are your experiences with using Finks against Goblins instead of Plague?

[Arsenal]

Dueling Grounds is a great way to deal with aggro swarm decks. I personally run the E Tutor package in my SB (4 Leylines, 3 E Tutor, then 8 singletons as Tutor targets), so "finding" Dueling Grounds vs. aggro isn't terribly difficult to do, nor is finding Wheel of Sun and Moon/Tormod's Crypt vs. Dredge, etc.

[AggroSteve]

kitchen finks worked pretty fine for me back when i used them, but right now i have no room in my 75 for them (not even using plagues right now).... but finks will allmost every time be 2 for 1 in your favor, and netting 4 life in the process is just a plus, actually i would say finks slow their clock by allmost 2 turns

i am testing darkblast right now in the main as a 2 of, and it has proven quite usefull, specially with divining top its extremely fun^^
specially in the goblins matchup darkblast shines, actually being an addictional removalspell ( 4 swords, 2 darkblast) , but in other matchups its rather subpar, but breaking goyfstalls out of nowhere is a fun thing as well^^

[sdematt]

The main problem is resilient combo. TES can be great to disrupt since they're fragile combo, whereas High Tide is slow and lumbering, and eventually gets there.

Aluren is all about manabase disruption and knowing when to Swords. It's not easy, but it's a better matchup than, say, Belcher.

The whole point? Sometimes discard doesn't get there, I'll be honest. Disruption with a clock is very key. My real question comes down to this: how many people are playing Rock at the moment, with combo being rampant? If it is being played in the same numbers as before, we can assume it's not doing well. If people aren't playing it because they ASSUME it won't do well, that's a problem as well.

Thoughts, guys? I've had more success with Deadguy as of late because I have more creatures, more discard, but less bomb stuff. But, I also die hopelessly to Zoo and Goblins.

-Matt

[sdematt]

The main problem is resilient combo. TES can be great to disrupt since they're fragile combo, whereas High Tide is slow and lumbering, and eventually gets there.

Aluren is all about manabase disruption and knowing when to Swords. It's not easy, but it's a better matchup than, say, Belcher.

The whole point? Sometimes discard doesn't get there, I'll be honest. Disruption with a clock is very key. My real question comes down to this: how many people are playing Rock at the moment, with combo being rampant? If it is being played in the same numbers as before, we can assume it's not doing well. If people aren't playing it because they ASSUME it won't do well, that's a problem as well.

Thoughts, guys? I've had more success with Deadguy as of late because I have more creatures, more discard, but less bomb stuff. But, I also die hopelessly to Zoo and Goblins.

-Matt

[Dzra]

I've been sort of laying low for a while. I ended up placing 32nd at the Dallas Open (unfortunately I got a game loss in the final round that resulted in a match loss because I forgot to shuffle exiled Goyfs back into my library) >_> Regardless, I feel like my Goblin and Merfolk MUs are below 50%, my Burn MU is just horrible, and combo is an uphill battle. My best MUs are against other midranged and control strategies and I can out-tempo them, out-removal them, and/or eventually drop a Deed and greatly change the board position.

I've been trying to think of how to improve my bad MUs (as they are a large part of the field) and I think I'm going to try restructuring the deck as a Vial deck much like the Junk and Taxes build. This gives access to more creatures which means a faster clock VS combo/Burn and well as easy access to SoFI/Jitte for the tribal MUs. The major downside is the loss of Deed which will most effect my Countertop and Enchantress MUs, but Countertop should be offset by the Vials.

Anyways, here's what I'm going to start testing with, I'd love some input and I'll hopefully be able to get back with some results after the Grand Prix Legacy side event this Sunday.

Land 22
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

Creatures 20
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells 18
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
2-4 Path to Exile
0-3 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

The SB is still up in the air. I also cut back on KotR utility lands, but I can be persuaded to MD/SB Maze or Bog again. Especially Bog with all the Dredge popping up.

[Bignasty197]

@Dzra
4 Stoneforge seems like overkill. I would look at 3 Mystics and moving the Sword of Light and Shadow to the main deck.

[bfeingersh]

Bringing this list/board to a GPT this weekend, comments?

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Jotun Grunt

Artifacts:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Diamond

Planeswalkers:
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Enchantments:
2 Pernicious Deed

Instants:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile

Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands:
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Empty spot.

Not sure what to do with the last slot. I think it's going to be either a Nihil Spellbomb, Gaddock Teeg, Dueling Grounds, Pernicious Deed, or Duress, depending on how I'm feeling on Saturday. Leaning towards a Duress, but I think I might be light on grave hate. Bojuka Bog is tutorable but might be too slow. Opinions?