[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[CorpT]

It's not bad in a sense that it's totally unplayable, but it's more like a card that is worth testing. The mana requirement for the ability is not that hard to use, eventually if you don't have life you can just activate it with mana and vice versa. It does not stop Vial only, but stops planeswalkers, jitte, ravager, smokestack, coralhelm commander and others. We'll just have to wait and see.

It's not the B that is the issue, but the X. If I have to spend 5 mana and 2 life to remove 5 counters from a Jace... I'd just rather Vindicate it or attack it. For Vial, paying XB to get it to 0 and then 1B or 1-2 Life every turn just to make sure they don't get to two seems... very lackluster. Again, what are you going to take out to replace it? You have to take something out. Nothing is worse than this, therefore, it's not going to see play.

It doesn't stop Jitte. It takes one Jitte counter and makes them use it on that for a card from your hand. It's too narrow. Everything else you mention can be dealt with by something else more efficiently. Especially because this doesn't "solve" anything but Jace as the other counters will come back.

[paladin3056]

It's not the B that is the issue, but the X. If I have to spend 5 mana and 2 life to remove 5 counters from a Jace... I'd just rather Vindicate it or attack it. For Vial, paying XB to get it to 0 and then 1B or 1-2 Life every turn just to make sure they don't get to two seems... very lackluster. Again, what are you going to take out to replace it? You have to take something out. Nothing is worse than this, therefore, it's not going to see play.

It doesn't stop Jitte. It takes one Jitte counter and makes them use it on that for a card from your hand. It's too narrow. Everything else you mention can be dealt with by something else more efficiently. Especially because this doesn't "solve" anything but Jace as the other counters will come back.

Point taken, moving on. How about what are your thoughts on this card?

Praetor's Grip
Rare
1BB
Sorcery
Search your opponent's deck for a card and exile it facedown. While it's exiled this way, you may look at it and play it as though it were in your hand.

I think it's more of a SB card at most, good against combo to get rid of your opponent's wincon. Against aggro decks you can get one of his big beaters to play or to get rid of.

[bokwinkle]

Praetor's Grip: It will be better if you're running green. However, it doesn't improve board position or game state. So you essentially dump 3 mana into a card that doesn't improve your situation. In many cases it will be a timewalk for your opponent. At best it gives you some information and sets up a late game quasi-tutor effect for 3 cmc, but in the B/w lists it will probably just be a tutor for a swords most of the time...and in that case, why not just run Path in its place? It may have an application here, but it just seems super slow to me atm.

Retribution of the Meek is a very interesting card IMHO. It deals with a lot of the stuff Perish does + Emmy and 'Naught, and a host of other cards (including random stuff in the stompy decks that are bad for us). The only problem I have with it, is that it doesn't ALWAYS kill KotR and 'Goyf, and it almost never kills Wild Nacatl, Noble Hierarch, and Qasali Pridemage, so it's significantly weaker against Zoo than Perish. It has a great upside though, in that it will never effect our creatures unless they are equiped - and with minor adjustments as to "who" is carrying a sword it should be an all upside kind of card.

If you decide to run retribution in the board for something, I don't think it can be a perish substitute (because it does so little against zoo), but I think it's a viable option to include as a substitue to Edicts to answer cheated in dudes...and it has the bonus upside of also answering Rock Decks, and other decks that run 'Goyf/KotR as finishers (in addition to perish), and it has the versatility to also come in against creature heavy decks, in a similar manner to edicts. It's weaker against Fish and Gobo's than edicts are, but generally I've never been crazy about edicts against these decks anyway since they always have a guy they can give away in order to save their lords.

Ultimately the question becomes this, "Is the 1 more mana of Retribution worth it, in order to gain some versatility against rock decks and some of the random decks that populate the field?" Personally, I think it is.

[Star|Scream]

Praetor's Grip: It will be better if you're running green. However, it doesn't improve board position or game state. So you essentially dump 3 mana into a card that doesn't improve your situation. In many cases it will be a timewalk for your opponent. At best it gives you some information and sets up a late game quasi-tutor effect for 3 cmc, but in the B/w lists it will probably just be a tutor for a swords most of the time...and in that case, why not just run Path in its place? It may have an application here, but it just seems super slow to me atm.

Retribution of the Meek is a very interesting card IMHO. It deals with a lot of the stuff Perish does + Emmy and 'Naught, and a host of other cards (including random stuff in the stompy decks that are bad for us). The only problem I have with it, is that it doesn't ALWAYS kill KotR and 'Goyf, and it almost never kills Wild Nacatl, Noble Hierarch, and Qasali Pridemage, so it's significantly weaker against Zoo than Perish. It has a great upside though, in that it will never effect our creatures unless they are equiped - and with minor adjustments as to "who" is carrying a sword it should be an all upside kind of card.

If you decide to run retribution in the board for something, I don't think it can be a perish substitute (because it does so little against zoo), but I think it's a viable option to include as a substitue to Edicts to answer cheated in dudes...and it has the bonus upside of also answering Rock Decks, and other decks that run 'Goyf/KotR as finishers (in addition to perish), and it has the versatility to also come in against creature heavy decks, in a similar manner to edicts. It's weaker against Fish and Gobo's than edicts are, but generally I've never been crazy about edicts against these decks anyway since they always have a guy they can give away in order to save their lords.

Ultimately the question becomes this, "Is the 1 more mana AND SORCERY SPEED of Retribution worth it, in order to gain some versatility against rock decks and some of the random decks that populate the field?" Personally, I think it is.

Edited

[bokwinkle]

The sorcery speed may come into play in a few matchups if you're on your game and it's in you're opening hand, but generally I feel as though it's not that big of a drawback.

Generally we are playing stuff on our turns - we are not sitting with mana open, waiting to respond to our opponent. This is especially true in the early turns (especially turn 2). The only situation I can think of where the instant speed of edict matters is when I'm staring down 12-post and they are getting ready to hardcast Emmy - Aeon Bridge has similar situations as well. But honstely, these matches are so abysmal anyway that I'm somewhere between altogether ignorning the matchups or completely revising the deck to be able to deal with them - honestly having 2-3 edicts in the deck with no way to go get them really doesn't improve this matchup, when compared to having 2-3 retributions to deal with the same threats. Wasteland is really the only card that makes these matchups winnable - edict just delays the innevitable...and when you're staring down a 'Naught and an Emmy (from Aeon) or a Titan and an Emmy (from 12 post) edict doesn't seem that good anyway.

Against reanimator, NO, and SneakShow sorcery speed is fine, and the sweeping effect is actually preferred against NO and reanimator. The lone downside of the sorcery speed in these matches is against sneak-attack...but that's what revoker is for.

[warfordium]

3rd Place at Mirkwood GPT 3rd March 2011

as promised, a tournament report for my 3rd place finish this past weekend. first, my decklist—this deck strays closer to the gate splashed white, since it includes Abyssal Persecutor and a few maindeck sac outlets. this is the only Legacy deck i play since returning to the game in January—so i’m 15 years out of date and a lot has changed. given that, i was really happy with how tightly and optimally i played, especially after scrubbing pretty hard in the two previous weeknight tournaments i’d played.

Maindeck

22 Lands
4 Wasteland
5 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland

Spells
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Funeral Charm
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

Creatures
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant

Sideboard
2 Extirpate
3 Tariff
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vindicate
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague

6-Round Swiss:
Round 1 against Anton (Rb Goblins)

G1: As soon as I saw badlands, i knew what was coming. Fortunately there wasn’t a first turn Lackey, but despite his relatively slow start I didn’t get into the game, especially after seeing my Dark Confidant Gempalm’d and two 9-point swings come in thereafter.

G2: in came the 4 Engineered Plagues and an Inquisition of Kozilek, with -1 Bob -3 Vindicate -1 Persecutor (I think... need to take better notes). I land a Revoker before his Mogg Fanatic comes online (naming Mogg Fanatic), then land a second Revoker on Æther Vial. the Revokers eventually disappeared as chumps but I landed an Engineered Plague soon thereafter, followed by a Persecutor.

G3: i think this was the game where i Funeral Charm’d the 1st turn lackey, got a Bob online. Life totals show a stabilization at 9 with Nighthawk, and I got a gracious concession after the second Plague hit.

1-0-0 (2-1-0)

Round 2: Nick with GW Junk

G1: risk a 1-swamp, 1-wasteland hand on the draw with a thoughtseize. T2 wasteland his Savannah hoping to keep him off KotR... and never see a second land. i was beaten down for the win.

G2: a win. probably saw more removal than him, thats all I can say. Life totals went back up, so i must have had a Nighthawk online.

G3: (i think i put in 1 Vindicate here, not much of a board plan for this one)—am overrun with creatures. turns out his build has 4 Swords and not much other removal... with the rest taken up by creatures. Goyf/KotR/Kitchen Finks (embarrassing, i know) and a SoLaS get there.

1-1-0 (3-3-0)

Round 3: Narayan with NO-Show

G1: on the draw, revoker his Hierarch. I land a nighthawk early, keep him off mana and get there, don’t see a threat or a combo piece, so i put him on combo and bring in the Extirpates and the Tariffs.

G2: T3 Emrakul. :| i draw and foolishly say “I have an out for that....”, then die.

G3: draw it out, extirpate NO after getting it to the yard. i get cliqued on my draw step and he pauses to look at the Tariff... keep my fool mouth shut, but he takes it anyway. get there with a Revoker and 2 Confidants Wolfing away... keeping the opponent off manabirds/elves is my strategy against NO and just sometimes works.

2-1-0 (6-4-0)

Round 4 Chris with Merfolk

G1: stabilize with nighthawk, blow up mutavault with wasteland and vindicate islands....grind it out. i was leading with hymns to suck up counters and sitting back like a control player.

G2: lots of disruption, revokers on Coralhelm Commander and Cursecatcher....one early EPlague, paid for daze to land bob i think, then am Bob/Topping like a champ, cracking shuffles like i’m a Rock player (except when i mess up re-stacking and peel a Persecutor, putting me at 3... awkward...i hold onto a Plow in case i see something i can’t stack with Top, but i don’t.) after putting him into the negative with persecutor, cast cabal therapy and flash it back same turn. swish.

3-1-0 (8-4-0)

Round 5 Zaiem with Aluren

G1: a drawn out game, i see brainstorms, walls, and not much else. i have never played against Aluren, but similiar to game 3 the blue + no threat + easy win screams ‘combo’ to me and in come the extirpates. i blow up 4 trops and an island this game—pretty sure the mana disruption was the key.

G2: an early thoughtseize gets a brainstorm in response. i still don’t know what he’s on, so i extirpate brainstorm (protip: this shuffles away what a combo player has hidden!). looking through the deck i see Aluren, the harpy/strix/stalker, as well as an imperial recruiter, and still don’t cl

[bokwinkle]

First -I like the list. The more I playtest and talk to other people that play this deck I really think Persecutor is the way to go wtih this deck if you're staying in 2 colors.

Also, I really think Perish is 100% necessary in our board. Decks that pack 'Goyf + KotR + other green fatties just wreck our faces - they are faster, and pack more threats than we pack removal. So I agree that finding room in the board for them makes a lot of sense.

Congrat's on your success!

[K1w1]

Hey guys,

in the following i would hope you can write some comments to my decklist:

21 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
4 Plains

5 Artifacts:
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

21 Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Instants:
4 Swords to Plowshares

9 Sorceries:
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

15 Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tariff
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Perish


Im not sure to run more removals, because 4 StoP are a bit less, but on the other hand i have nine discard cards.

Secondly im not sure about running a second Jitte because 1 removal and i cant get it back.

Whats your comment to this?

[bokwinkle]

Kiwi -

First, let me say I understand all of your current choices in the decklist - there isn't any cards here that seem out of place.

That being said, there are some counts that seem like they should be reviewed. I think a 4-of at the revoker spot may be too much, depending on your meta. If they are absolutely stellar for you though, I'd probably keep them in - but my preferance is to cut them to 2.

Next, the 6-card mystic package PLUS the 2 persecutors is probably a bit much. Generally, I've found that if I'm running Persecutors that I can get away with just a 4-card mystic package - which is ok anyway because sword of light and shadow is pretty poor. I would probably go to 3 Persecutors though.

This leaves 3 flex spots so far...

In the discard spots - I personally feel that 4 Hymn AND 4 Sculler is too much 2 cmc discard. And, I feel that 4 thoughtsieze is absolutely necessary. I think you could easilly cut a pair of scullers here and not look back - especially if you go to a 4-card mystic package, and bears aren't as necessary.

Next, if you're going to run Persecutor you can't just run 4 removal spells - you need ways to kill your own persecutor:

1. At the very least I wouldn't run without at least 2 maindeck sacrifice spells - either edict's or Gatekeeper of Malakir, this will help against all of the decks that are cheating creatures into play, and have the nice side effect of being relevant in every game because of persecutor.

2. I also have a tendancy to lean towards a couple of vindicates, but that's a matter of taste. Many people consider vindicates little more than a 3 cmc creature removal spell (which it is most of the time), and if this is the case for you, and you see a lot of aggro, I wouldn't hesitate to run Path to Exile instead of vindicate. However, if you see a lot of combo or control, I'd run Vindicate.

3. Also, Instead of Inquistion of Kozilek I'd run Cabal Therapy. Even if you don't know what people are playing, you have at least 6 maindeck spells that look at people's hand, and out of the board you have extirpate to look at their whole deck...you can figure out how to use therapy.

Lastly - Top, 21 lands, and what's left of the flex spots. I'm not crazy about top, it's very "control" for my taste. Against a good 75%* of our matchups we want speed, not control - especially if you're going to go light on the removal spells. Personally, I'd run 4 Dark Ritual in your list. If nothing else, you can go Ritual, thoughtsieze, Hymn or Ritual, Thoughtsieze, Bob on turn one and just win through card advantage. Against Aggro, a first turn Nighthawk can be pretty devestating too. And, of course, a second turn Persecutor is what we all want to see. However, the bigest upside (IMHO) of running Dark Ritual is that it allows easier casting of Gatekeeper of Malakir. Don't underestimate Gatekeeper - he enables the use of Persecutor AND enables Stoneforge because he's a bear that can carry a sword. Plus he offers A TON of delay against aggro decks that are trying to push through early damage to keep bob off-line. He's a great card that really makes a lot of the deck possible IMHO.

Personally, I'd go to 20 land, ditch tops, and use one of the remaining flex spots to go to 4 rituals. If you do this though, just keep in mind that Sculler and Vindicate will become slightly less playable as your deck leans more twords mono-black. So, trimming scullers for mono-black discard makes more sense and utilizing mono-black removal (like go for the throat) may become a better option than path or vindicate.

This is just my suggestion - but I think at a minimum you need to up your removal count if you're going to run Persecutor.

Also, in response to going to 2 Jittes...Jitte is slow. Sometimes we need jitte to clear the board of Hierarchs or 1 toughness guys, and sometimes we need the lifegain - but generally we just want our guys to be bigger and swinging. There are times I look for Jitte, but I find SoFI to be my equipment of choice in 90%* of matchups. Also, if you run vindicates, seeing your opponent's Jitte's won't bother you so much, since you have an answer for them other than going to get your own Jitte.

*note, all percentages are fabricated...lol

[Mr. Safety]

Hey all, go here:

http://mtgsalvation.com/new-phyrexia-spoiler.html

Now read Puresteel Paladin...and tell me that isn't a good reason to play 4x Aether Vial, Tidehollow Sculler, and Stoneforge Mystic?

[bokwinkle]

well, I've said for some time already that if the Sword of War and Peace is even half-way decent that there may be a need to up the equipment counts and SFM's in the deck. Personally, I'm not sure the Equipment.dec with the paladin is even going to have black in it...but I'm waiting for everything else to be spoiled and for these cards to be confirmed first. however, he does seem very playable with Vial, Rovoker, and Mystic in legacy at the very least.

[Mr. Safety]

I would say he could make Mystic even BETTER. Honestly, Mystic is a powerful card but can't carry a deck on it's own. Think about this:

3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Puresteel Paladin
4x Dark Confidant
3x Vampire Nighthawk

2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Aether Vial
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Vindicate
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of War and Peace
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Argentum Armor

4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
5x Plains
4x Swamp


You have a ton of 2cmc dudes (exactly what you want with Aether Vial) with Nighthawk holding up the high end of the curve and Wasteland/Thoughtseize/Aether Vial giving your early game a great setup. Argentum Armor becomes playable...when the play cost is 1W, tap Mystic and the equip cost becomes 0.

Just some thoughts...Quest for the Holy Relic (equipment.dec) may be a better place for him, but I see him as a bear that produces card advantage, ESPECIALLY when you can Vial him in at your opponent's end step and then drop some absurd equipment and attach it for free and start the pain train rolling.

[K1w1]

firstable, thanks for your feedback bokwinkle.

ok, i will take your choices and edit my deck.


current deck list:

20 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
3 Plains

2 Artifacts:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

18 Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

8 Instants:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual

12 Sorceries:
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Innocent Blood

15 Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tariff
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Perish

[Richard Cheese]

Ok so here's a list just to brainstorm a few of the synergies that have come up in this thread:


4 Aether Vial

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Retribution of the Meek
4 Dark Ritual

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Serra Avenger

4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Perish
2 Null Rod


This is totally untested, not even goldfished, so it might be a total pile.

I've taken out the SFM package because she isn't good on her own, and running retribution means swords aren't as useful, unless you're going to run a bunch of 1x creatures.

Ritual allows for some explosive starts, and can be dumped into shade in the late game, but I could see removing both to go for a slower, more control-based strategy, maybe swapping in 3x Vindicate, 1x Retribution, 4x Sculler.

Factories could be replaced with Wasteland, but I feel like Waste on it's own without any other mana-denial to back it up is too easy for most decks to recover from. Maybe 1x Volrath's Stronghold could be swapped for one of the Factories, just to make sure annoying things like Bob and Canonist stick around.

Revoker is in the side instead of the main, because I can see him naming Vial 60% of the time, so against tribal you could swap him for Vials and Swap E. Plagues for Canonists/Retribution. Retribution seems like it would still be worth having against Merfolk, but Goblins lists aren't playing many lords these days. Null Rods could easily be Jittes depending on how much tribal you expect to see, but with artifact decks showing up more frequently and New Phyrexia yet to come out, I think Null Rod is a better choice going into an unknown meta.

I'm going to throw this guy together in Cockatrice when I get home, wouldn't mind doing some playtesting if anyone else uses that instead of MWS (if you haven't checked it out yet, you really should).

[Mr. Safety]

At a first glance, you made a few of fairly large mistakes with that list: Dark Ritual WITHOUT Vampire Nighthawk, lack of Revoker/Mom maindeck, and no way for your creatures to become big enough to compete with the other fatties in the format (SFM package.)

What that list does is focus on combo hate (Canonist) but also tries to abuse Nantuko Shade in a non-mono-black deck. Nantuko Shade is a mana sink that is easily dealt with, creating card DISADVANTAGE. How often will you have spare B to pump the guy? I'd rather have spare mana up for Vindicate/Swords/Mystic/equipment while I Vial in my bears.

I'm not sure about everyone else that posts here on the thread, but I feel the deck either needs Revoker or Mom maindeck, period. Vampire Nighthawk is probably the second best creature in the deck (Bob is first, and it's close between Mystic/Nighthawk, but Nighthawk brings more to the table with the initial investment).

I know you're thinking "I want to name Vial with Revoker, and that shuts off MY vials." Good play gets around that, and your Vial-ed in bears should be doing their job (Sculler, Bob, Mystic, Revoker) better than your opponent's. Thoughtsieze, Swords, and Vindicate should take care of the rest of the story. Let them Vial in their threats...and you play Revoker to negate those effects. If you feel it's neccessary to sideboard out your Vials for Revokers...you must be thinking fish/gobbo matchups (or the mirror.) Revoker may shut off Vial...but those 2 decks can still kick your ass without Vial. And Retribution of the Meek isn't all that great vs. gobbos/fish...really only zoo, new horizons, and SnT. In those matchups, Vial is your KEY PIECE to winning those matchups. SoFI and Jitte should be containing the gobbos/fish...so the idea of playing Vial without Revoker just seems silly to me.

Don't get me started on the fringe Vial decks (like Meathooks) matchups, because Crystalline Sliver will quite simply WRECK YOU, Vial or no Vial. Vial Affinity? They'll be dumping their hand as soon as they know YOU'RE using Vial...becuase if they are good players, they know you're just too damn slow to stop their intense tempo.

Just my thoughts...

[bokwinkle]

firstable, thanks for your feedback bokwinkle..

No problem - feedback is why we're all here.

Now the only problem I see is that you're basically running my exact list...lol. This is good, because I have a lot of confidence in my list and I'd like more people to playtest it, but it's bad because I'm a legacy Newb and the deck is virtually untested in a real legacy environment.

I'm flattered that you so quickly took my suggestions to heart, but please realize they are just suggestions and I am by no means the authority on anything relating to Magic. So I guess what i'm saying is this - "test the hell out of it, it could still be wrong for you"

I would say he could make Mystic even BETTER. Honestly, Mystic is a powerful card but can't carry a deck on it's own....
You have a ton of 2cmc dudes (exactly what you want with Aether Vial) with Nighthawk holding up the high end of the curve and Wasteland/Thoughtseize/Aether Vial giving your early game a great setup. Argentum Armor becomes playable...when the play cost is 1W, tap Mystic and the equip cost becomes 0.

Just some thoughts...Quest for the Holy Relic (equipment.dec) may be a better place for him, but I see him as a bear that produces card advantage, ESPECIALLY when you can Vial him in at your opponent's end step and then drop some absurd equipment and attach it for free and start the pain train rolling.

I can also see him being totally worthless and win-more. lol. His card advantage requires you basically tapping out every turn to play equipment, that does nothing until you attach it. It could end up being very slow and very fragile. Then there's the added question of - "What are you going to draw with his ability in a deck that is built to abuse his ability? More equipment?" There might be a deck there, but I'm not on board yet - I'd have to test it a lot I think. Ultimately the viability of this deck still revolves around the quality of the equipment that's available, but the downside is that many other decks also have access to that same equipment.

Also, as a side note, IMHO nothing makes argentum armor Legacy playable...lol. There's just better stuff.

Ok so here's a list ..This is totally untested, not even goldfished, so it might be a total pile.

I've taken out the SFM package because she isn't good on her own, and running retribution means swords aren't as useful, unless you're going to run a bunch of 1x creatures.

Ritual allows for some explosive starts, and can be dumped into shade in the late game, but I could see removing both to go for a slower, more control-based strategy, maybe swapping in 3x Vindicate, 1x Retribution, 4x Sculler.....

My primary issue with this particular list is Dark Ritual in a deck that is so White heavy. I have an issue with Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger in a deck with Dark Ritual - You'd have an easier time convincing me of Vampire Nighthawk and Stromgald Crusader. Also, pairing Vial with Ritual seems like too much accelleration to me. Generally, that much accelleration will limit both threats and answers, but testing will reveal more probably.

Also, you can definately run SfM with Retribution - you can equip SfM and/or you can run Jitte. I'm not saying that SfM should be your primary win-con with 3 maindeck retributions...but I'm saying that it's not a complete bomb-bo. Running 2 SfM and 2 Jitte is actually a pretty decent call in a lot of meta's.

Also, I have a hard time with maindeck Cannonist - it's largely dependant on meta, but it's generally useless against so many decks (anything that runs Vial, Control, NO, SneakShow, etc) whereas a similar hatebear (revoker) is available that is good against so much of the field (Anything that run's LED, Anything that runs Vial, KotR, Noble Hierarchs, Candelabra, etc). Again, largely dependant on meta, but my personal opinion is that Revoker is the pick.

[Richard Cheese]

I've taken out the SFM package because she isn't good on her own, and running retribution means swords aren't as useful, unless you're going to run a bunch of 1x creatures.

Retribution is still totally untested, so it might suck and get replaced with SFM, but it deals with anything running NO-Pro, Emrakul lists (minus shelldock), Tombstalker, reanimator, MUD, and Dreadnought. I think the real test is to see how often it hits KotR, Goyf, and Terravore.

I get your point about Shade in a non-monoblack deck, but without it, running Rituals and Canonists together just seems pointless, which is why I mentioned dropping both of them to go more control-based.

As for Nighthawk, after playing him in Deadguy since he came out, I'm just over the guy. He's easy to remove and doesn't put down a fast enough clock to make him a serious threat to most decks. He mostly just postpones an attack until they can find a Bolt/Path/Swords/Firespout/etc. Yes I've won a few games off him, but not as many as I've lost because he never amounted to more than chumping a Goyf. I like either of the Crusaders better, Mirran is far better on offense, and Phyrexian is far better on defense. I would consider switching to Phyrexian just to take better advantage of Ritual, or maybe even Hippie to help against control matchups.

What do you name with Revoker against Merfolk/Goblins if not Vial? I can see running it main since it is a body, but you could also argue that it's far more fragile than Pithing Needle, and you never see that maindecked.

My real concerns with a list like this are:
1. Can a bunch of 2/x's can really hold down the fort long enough to use Retribution?
2. Can ~ get there before an opponent can stabilize after Retribution?
3. Having a bunch of creatures that are easy to burn off with Firespout/Lavamancer/Volcanic Fallout

Having Hippie instead of Mirran Crusader helps with 2, but makes 1 and 3 worse, you get the opposite effect with Phyrexian Crusader.

One card I thought about trying to abuse in this list was Phylactery Lich, but he just begs to be 2-for-1'd, since everyone is going to be gunning for your Canonist/Vial anyway. He does get a lot better in multiples though.

[warfordium]

What do you name with Revoker against Merfolk/Goblins if not Vial? I can see running it main since it is a body, but you could also argue that it's far more fragile than Pithing Needle, and you never see that maindecked.

i have had success naming Coralhelm Commander and Cursecatcher against 'folks and (see above) Gempalm Incinerator and Mogg Fanatic against gobbos. Llanowar/Fyndhorn elves, Priest of Titania... Lion's Eye Diamond? Moxen? its been pretty versatile for me.

[Uly Van Hammer]

One card I thought about trying to abuse in this list was Phylactery Lich, but he just begs to be 2-for-1'd, since everyone is going to be gunning for your Canonist/Vial anyway. He does get a lot better in multiples though.

Easiest way would be with Darksteel Citidel, but it would cripple your mana base.

[K1w1]

Now the only problem I see is that you're basically running my exact list...lol. This is good, because I have a lot of confidence in my list and I'd like more people to playtest it, but it's bad because I'm a legacy Newb and the deck is virtually untested in a real legacy environment.

I'm flattered that you so quickly took my suggestions to heart, but please realize they are just suggestions and I am by no means the authority on anything relating to Magic. So I guess what i'm saying is this - "test the hell out of it, it could still be wrong for you"

i couldnt know that im actually using your deck. lol.

I'm a legacy Newb

Really? Dont think so. Ok, maybe you are new playing this format but i have to say that your arguments are just awesome!
Im reading all the posts in this thread every day and every time im reading yours im just with your opinion.

"test the hell out of it, it could still be wrong for you"

I will test this deck in any case!

I just have to say thank you. Just like with you Mr. Safety

I love your discuss about this deck :-D