Starcity's new buy list - Consequences?

[swoop]

Reprint old cards.

[Pippin]

You answer your own question right there. If they tackle this the right way they can make a lot of profit.

I still don't get the logic. Reprint the cards so that people can buy them once and don't spend any money on new stuff aka playing T2 since they'll play eternal formats instead? Go for easy one-time profit instead of slow-milking one where most people need new cards for rotating formats?

[nwong]

I still don't get the logic. Reprint the cards so that people can buy them once and don't spend any money on new stuff aka playing T2 since they'll play eternal formats instead? Go for easy one-time profit instead of slow-milking one where most people need new cards for rotating formats?

Eternal players play other formats. What else do they do with all the cards that rotated out? Hint: Extended is a joke. Reprinting for Legacy won't affect Standard at all. Why? Legacy will never cannibalize Standard as long as Standard is a PTQ format and Legacy is not. It's simple really.

[Tammit67]

I still don't get the logic. Reprint the cards so that people can buy them once and don't spend any money on new stuff aka playing T2 since they'll play eternal formats instead? Go for easy one-time profit instead of slow-milking one where most people need new cards for rotating formats?

If the legacy playable card is also standard playable, some consumers will surely play Standard since they already have the cards from playing legacy. My friend, for example, who plays Excalibur has recently built boros for standard since all he really needed was a handful of commons.

Not only would a legacy reprint increase supply, but would have a good impact on sales and, as I conjecture, event attendance for both formats. Most events have standard one day and legacy the next, so the structure is already there.

[TsumiBand]

On functional reprints -

There's a million ways they can do this without being strict functional reprints. Snow dual lands - they make snow mana, they trigger snowy things, they die to 'snow hate', whatever that is, so they're not even functional reprints. Tribal instants/sorceries - who says Force of Will couldn't be a "Cephalid Instant", mmm? Hybrid mana symbols where applicable - I dunno it's early, the only thing I can think of right now is a UR Fork, like we need one of those, but you catch my meaning.

And the thing of it is, none of these things need to 'cannibalize' Standard, because they get to decide what Standard looks like every 4 months. Amazing. Like when they reprinted Savannah Lions and Lightning Bolt, anyone feeling betrayed or cannibalized over that? I don't think I'm cannibalized. I don't think. And I'm also pretty sure if memory serves, Lions didn't even see play, it was already underpowered by then.

Look, if Standard's the cash cow and it only directly feeds one format while most of the others are considered a subset of the secondary market, then I don't see how it's bad business to print "functional reprint staples" of the other formats; Standard still sells because it's Standard, and Legacy/Vintage players go "Look I can get rid of my proxies and play this Snow Plateau instead, epic". Congratulations, you just sold cards to everyone while keeping the collectors from shitting themselves because their dusty old Mint duals still mean what they say and say what they mean. Ta-daaaaaaa.

[SpikeyMikey]

I'm definitely not a dealer. I won't be spending so much time on these forums if I was. I play for fun and I hate seeing new players being unable to get into the format due to the price. However, reprinting is not an option. Wizards already has a terrible rep for screwing around with the secondary market prices (for their own benefit) that even if you force down dual prices down to 15-20, enough people will be pissed with the volatility of MTG prices. MTG is different from Yugioh or other TCGs because of what Dachmai mentioned, regulating the prices and not screwing people over. Since worldwake is out of print now, why not print Theme decks with Jace TMS? People who bought Jace TMS for 100 bucks a pop would be screwed over and very unhappy.

So in the future, knowing you are likely to be screwed over by wizards when you invest into something expensive due to reprints, would you buy those Jaces-esque level cards? Reputation and confidence in the regulating authority is very important. There are set rules and Wizards has to stick to them. There are reasons why Yugioh players "graduate" to MTG and not the other way around. Volatility that is initiated by the parent company is not good for business. Wizards recognizes that and won't mess around too much with the secondary market prices.

Here's the problem. You keep throwing around the word invest like it means something. If I "invest" in a new fishing pole, I don't expect it to double in value over 5 years. If I "invest" in some football pads, I don't bitch when resale is less than what I paid. I bought a Saab convertible about a year and a half ago because I do a lot of driving and wanted to have some fun. But I'm not going to be able to sell it for what I paid for it. You pay to play games because they're a leisure activity. It's worth paying for the enjoyment you get out of them. Even if you play at a competitive level. This idea of 'I'm owed something' is bullshit. It's no different than going out and buying the latest version of CoD. You might pay $50 for it and 6 months later, someone else buys it for $30. You didn't get ripped off. You paid for a leisure activity and you paid what it was worth to you. If it's not worth it, don't pay it. Legacy will collapse under it's own weight some day, and when it does, the parties at blame will be Wizards and the minority collectors that pushed the reinforcement if the reserve policy. I sold out of Magic a long time ago. Now I have 1 deck that I can take to tournaments and I play RL MtG maybe 3-4 times a year. When I had a major collection, I played T1, 1.5, 2 and I drafted. Now, it's not worth it to me anymore because the price is too high.

[GGoober]

The only problem I see with 'investing' in MTG is precisely this:

You can speculate about card prices, buy up stocks, sell of supply and earn money. But you cannot stop the actual force that really governs everything: WotC. If WotC decides to print Jace 2.0 in a duel deck, it will ultimately affect the secondary market, but does WotC truly cares about the secondary market? Yes to some extent but no to a large extent. They are not responsible for what happens to the secondary market, but they are CONCERNED about its implications to their name as a whole. The whole point of the Reserved List is this. They made a promise, and they honor the promise, despite gonig through multiple revisions (so the promise isn't really upheld either lol).

It's not WotC's fault for whatever they do that ends up screwing up speculators. It's precisely the speculators's fault for not being able to keep up to WotC's changes made to the game e.g. reprinting Elspeth in a duel deck was unexpected, but since the speculators never took that as a risk factor in their profit analysis, they were hit by it, it's like the insurance industry, where you can have a firm grasp of most of the risks involved in your business, but still be subject to a rare natural disaster e.g. maybe two earthquakes in a row at multiple regions and you end up losing big time because you did not factor that in. For most situations, such events are rare, just as reprinting Jace 2.0 in a duel deck, but nothing's to stop WotC from doing so. When you're speculating MTG cards, you better well be aware that you can make losses like these, and avoid bitching, because that's just the nature of the market for speculating cards.

For the same reason, SCG is currently understanding the nature of the Legacy market: that people want the cards, the format is more popular, and people are reluctant to sell Legacy staples. This gives them a reason to raise prices saying "No one wants to sell us FoWs, so we raise prices" Ben uses this as a justification for raising card prices, to be able to keep stock for their customers, but what he doesn't really justify is: Is doing this really beneficial for SCG, for the market, for the format? He claims that it's SCG's interest to keep prices low and Legacy more affordable to the general people who want to break in, but what they're doing goes against this. I know it's important to keep your inventory up as a reputable store to keep your customers in stock with cards, but at the same time, is it worth the backlash on the huge increases in card prices pricing out people who want to play the format? The answer is simple, Ben's claims that they want to keep Legacy vibrant and healthy is just the smaller of the interest, the bigger interest is being the main market holder of Legacy staples, while continuing their circuits. The whole desire to keep legacy prices low is just a convenient statement to make, while the whole point is the company's interest. There's nothing wrong about profit-making, being the lead shareholder in the Legacy market, but it doesn't necessarily always paint a good picture when people start realizing what's going on.

[bakofried]

You think this is big? Think what the format could be if it were more accessible. I shit you not, Legacy would easily start competing with Standard, and maybe trump it, as the most popular format.

[Admiral_Arzar]

You think this is big? Think what the format could be if it were more accessible. I shit you not, Legacy would easily start competing with Standard, and maybe trump it, as the most popular format.

This is exactly what I want. It's also exactly what WOTC DOESN'T WANT. Their current business model makes them little money off of eternal formats, so this would be extremely bad for them.

[troopatroop]

Smart businesses adapt. If Legacy gets extremely popular, they could support it with reprints and make shit tons of cash. My take on it, is that Hasbro has no idea of anything going on in the community, and is far too big to be thinking about "small potatoes" stuff, like the health of eternal magic.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Smart businesses adapt. If Legacy gets extremely popular, they could support it with reprints and make shit tons of cash. My take on it, is that Hasbro has no idea of anything going on in the community, and is far too big to be thinking about "small potatoes" stuff, like the health of eternal magic.

This is probably true. I wish that Hasbro would give WOTC free rein on this issue though.

[Pippin]

Smart businesses adapt. If Legacy gets extremely popular, they could support it with reprints and make shit tons of cash. My take on it, is that Hasbro has no idea of anything going on in the community, and is far too big to be thinking about "small potatoes" stuff, like the health of eternal magic.

And we are again back to logic flaw... it wouldn't make them more money, it's as easy as that. It would be a one time profit that wouldn't bring anywhere near the revenues the current model does. People would buy their forces and be done with it...
In current model people keep buying packs and draft simply because they need loads of new cards every few months for T2 since it's a fast rotating format.

[Uly Van Hammer]

I agree, if Legacy staples were as obtainable as standard cards, why would you ever play standard? Is it fun to play against the same CawBlade deck 4 rounds running?

[Admiral_Arzar]

I agree, if Legacy staples were as obtainable as standard cards, why would you ever play standard? Is it fun to play against the same CawBlade deck 4 rounds running?

And this is why I quit the standard format. It was an amazing decision that led to much happiness, and far less nerdrage.

[GGoober]

I agree, if Legacy staples were as obtainable as standard cards, why would you ever play standard? Is it fun to play against the same CawBlade deck 4 rounds running?

To be fair, WotC can always support Legacy by printing eternal packs, this way they make money while keeping the format affordable v.s. the current scenario on the secondary markets pricing entrants out of the format.

If they want to avoid Legacy cannibalizing on Standard, all they need to do is only hold 1-2 Legacy tournaments a year, and keep the majority Standard. It's the PTQ, GP, circuits that mainly make standard the main attraction. They can still support Legacy by printing such packs and earning money, but never need to cannibalize standard by avoiding holding too many Legacy tournaments. The only issue is we'll hear much more bitching when that's implemented than now e.g. "why can't WotC support this format, it's so awesome!!"

[Koby]

Here's a revolutionary idea.

Remove the Extended format. No one enjoys playing this format as it is. Make all the PTQs, GP, Pro Tours, etc events that use this format become Legacy.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

[honestabe]

Fakes are the future of Legacy.

When you think about it, most duals are old, and fucked up anyway, it'd be too easy for someone to start pumping out decent fakes for duals, wastes and forces. And really, who cares. It seems to me that most people who want into legacy right now don't want the cards as collectables, they want them to play with. Honestly, I will willingly buy decent fakes for the purpose of just paying in tournaments with them. Considering how poor the quality is on the older cards, combined with how good fakes can be, combined with the fact that it's in a sleeve, and my opponent will be none the wiser. Even if I did have some crazy judge, who inspected all of the cards of the players in the top 8 DID find a fake amongst mine, what will they do? Sorry judge, I traded for it at a PTQ last week! I had no idea!! Or, I could just slip out my fake duals, with the real duals from a friend who didn't top 8, and presto, I'm in the clear.

It happened in Vintage; in fact a good portion of power circulating around vintage circles is fake; there are even reports of people getting fake power from the "Hidden Treasures" promo. That's how good fakes can be. Now, if people get really serious about this, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some fakes that can't even be distinguished via bend or blacklight tests. The only way to know if a card is real for sure is the security strip in the middle, which you have to tear the card to find. GREAT IDEA, WoTC.

Not too long ago, I borrowed a set of power from a friend of mine, who has had it for years. On the drive to the tournament, I became bored and started really inspecting his power, and I'm pretty sure 3 pieces were fake. I've also heard various reports of people who's opponents had fake power, but thought it was real, and the player just didn't have the heart to tell thier opponent their 500 dollar card is actually worthless.

I suspect we'll start seeing a LOT of fake duals come this summer

[SpikeyMikey]

I'd buy fakes too if they were like half the price of the real thing. What do I care who printed my card as long as I can sit down and play with it?

[honestabe]

Here's a revolutionary idea.

Remove the Extended format. No one enjoys playing this format as it is. Make all the PTQs, GP, Pro Tours, etc events that use this format become Legacy.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Doesn't this create even MORE demand, thus making the problem worse?

[Roman Candle]

Here's an interesting idea that came to me the other day:

What if, for two month intervals, Wizards reprints rotating Eternal-legal sets in their entirety? Like, for two months they reprint Revised, for the next four they reprint Ice Age and Alliances. Not Standard legal, obviously. With new card frames, updating Oracle wordings, maybe with updated rarities, possibly with some cards excluded. They could make sanctioned drafts of those sets, which leads to Standard players buying more packs for drafting (especially pros who go through several boxes preparing for big tournaments), while still putting more Eternal staples into circulation. Bringing back old draft formats would be a really interesting move too. I love drafting old formats on MTGO.

Granted, that still doesn't deal with the Reserved List.