It doesn't affect me in the slightest if you drive a Ferrari or a VW Bug. It affects me greatly if you can play competitive Legacy decks or not. I want lots of people to be able to play so that there will be many Legacy tournaments.Originally Posted by Lemnear
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
This might be valid if WotC planned on making more money off cards on the reserved list, but as they have stated, they intend to bring in a whopping $0 dollars off those cards in the future. Really, the only people who get hurt, are the ones dumb enough spend $1000 on 60 square inches of paper.
Well what if there was no cost? If you do it yourself and *only* use them to play Magic, does it become okay?"You profited off someone's intellectual proporty without their consent."
If everyone had your point of view, there would be no such thing as Fan Fiction, and bands would be boo'd offstage for playing cover songs.
You look bored, I wish
everything about the danger
wouldnt make you such a stranger.
While it is true that Wizards makes no money when SCG sells a Force of Will, they did make money on the pack of Alliances that contained said Force of Will.
Wizards has no problem with the secondary market as long as you're selling product that was originally purchased from them through a dealer, etc. I don't see what's wrong with that, and I don't see how anyone can think selling proxies/fakes is morally acceptable. (I understand that you aren't saying that.)
No, you're still hurting Wizards because you're undermining trust in the secondary market. If proxies/fakes become widespread and indistinguishable from real cards, why would anyone buy packs or real singles? If people don't buy packs, Wizards can't make any money. It's not going to stop with out of print cards. Today it's "okay" because Candelabra of Tawnos is $250 and people are "stupid" for paying that. Tomorrow it will be "okay" to make proxies/fakes of new planeswalkers because only "stupid" people would pay $50 for a card.
Who are you, or anyone else, to determine what is a "fair" price for a card? Just because you don't think Candelabras are worth $250 doesn't mean no one does. What you're saying is that SCG should refuse to stock a card because you think it's worth significantly less than it's actual market value.
I hate the out of control prices as much as anyone, but proxies/fakes aren't the answer. That shit has the potential to kill Magic.
No, because you're still using Wizards of the Coast's intellectual property without their permission. It's like listening to an illegal copy of a CD. You didn't create the copy to make money, but you're undermining demand for the legal product.
I have no problem with fan-fiction, except when it is bought and sold without giving its due to the creator of the original characters/world. Most creators feel the same way. As I understand it, bands need permission from the original band to create a cover unless it's a parody under "fair use." Cover songs do not decrease demand for the original; they do not undermine confidence in the authenticity of the original song.
Can you really not see the difference?
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
So, almost 400 posts in and no one has said it yet, so I'll be the first:
OMG BAN DUALZ THEY"RE TOO EXPENSIVE!!!!oner!!on!!2
/sarcasm
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
Or ban multicolored Decks from tournaments! This makes fetches a lot cheaper too! XD
Seriously, I have no idea there this shit ends. If you want to play 9 Duals in a deck ... ok ... buy them and shut up or play mono-colored meerfolk, goblins, elves, high tide or whatever. This bitching is Not only about Power, semi-Power (Drain, Bazaar,Workshop) and Duals but reaches down to FoW, fetchlands and tarmogoyfs.
I know these Kind of people want their 40 Duals, their Power 9, Sets of Workshop, bazaar, Drain, FoW, tarmogoyf, Jace 2.0 and more all foiled in a nice shiny box for 29.99$ so everyone can play every Top Tier deck anytime in bubbly winterwonderland. Play chess!
@CorpT: What a ego-centric view you have here. 3 sentences ... I quote: "It doesn't affect me ... If you", "it affects me ... If you", "I want". Thank god it "doesn't affect" WotC that you "want" ;)
I'm concerned about the eternal Community as well but mass reprining cards and dump their worth cannot Be vital for a collectible Card game; Hope that's clear that you'll destroy the base of the game that way. The only Thing WotC has done to make the topic "Money" so harming for the community was the 4th rarity
Again, a bad example. Music is available all the time with Itunes, Zune, whatever. It's not like an artist/label comes out with an album and sells it for one year only and vows that they will never distribute it again that would just be stupid. You have access to buy legit copies at a fair price indefinitely.
My band plays a cover song when we play live. Ive never sent the original band a letter asking for permision. Ive never felt like I owed them anything. Maybe if I lied and tried to pass it off as something I wrote it would be problematic.I have no problem with fan-fiction, except when it is bought and sold without giving its due to the creator of the original characters/world. Most creators feel the same way. As I understand it, bands need permission from the original band to create a cover unless it's a parody under "fair use." Cover songs do not decrease demand for the original; they do not undermine confidence in the authenticity of the original song.
Can you really not see the difference?
All I want to do is play a game. I dont want it to get to the point that I have to buy an eye loupe just so I can trade for cards, I would prefer to just play the f-ing game. I dont want anything to validate my opponent's "I would win too if I had the money" rant.
IMHO there are only 2 things that Magic players should be able to bitch about: mana screw/flood, and improbable top decks. Can't they just throw us a bone here?
You look bored, I wish
everything about the danger
wouldnt make you such a stranger.
Again, who are you to determine "fair" price. What gives you the right to undermine Wizards of the Coast's business model because you don't like it/agree with it/think it's stupid.
Even if my example was poor, you'd still be using Wizards of the Coast's intellectual property without their permission if you made proxies/fakes and sold them. And that's illegal and immoral.
Without knowing anything about your band, you're probably not big enough/making enough money for whomever's song your covering to go after you legally.
Like I said, I'm not sure what the law is regarding non-parodic cover songs. From what I understand, most big bands ask permission before they cover a song whether or not they're legally required to do so. Even "Weird Al" Yankovic gets permission from every artist he parodies despite probably not having to legally.
Dude, nobody likes the prices where they're at. Not even SCG. I want Wizards to throw us a bone as much as the next guy, but proxies/fakes can't ever be a solution.
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
Even then they would complain that stores were selling them for $100. There is no helping these people.
A founding member of Team Bluff the Lotus - Bringing the crazy from Bob's Baseball Dugout
...
I'm trying to figure out to respond to this post without getting banned again.
Let me say that you do not seem to exercise adequate consideration in looking at the format's larger long-term health, which is unfortunate if you, presumably, enjoy Legacy and want it to continue to be played.
Also unfortunate if you wanted to ever have any appreciable understanding of socio-economic theory, but la.
If the format is not accessible it will die the same death as Vintage.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
You don't have to tell ME about vintage. I want you to remind that the problematic of card access in vintage was adressed by proxies and carried on for years, resulting in a sell-out of Power in the US. In the US Vintage scene there's rarely a greater card access problem than in Legacy. Difference: Vintage's near dead and Legacy attendance burst every Arena! Strange, isn't it?
I strongly believe that the dumb stories about matches won and lost by the Dice and all the Turn 1 kills caused enough damage over the years and I feel Legacy's silhouette is described that Way too at the moment, when I read all those threats and comments.
This alone rise a doubt if Card-access is the most important issue here.
Moreover it's very interesting you call a real estate manager short-sighted and imply I have a lack in soc-eco
I'm thinking a point that I feel warrants being brought up. though the argument may be not-quite succinct.
So legacy is unsustainable unless some changes are made to card availability etc..
isn't our whole way we operate on the planet(at least industrial peoples) unsustainable? is it not this industrialization that brought about the beauty and awesomeness that is Magic: the Gathering? Since when has anything on this planet not been unsustainable? (barring certain micro-organisms)
every solution proposed to the risk of legacy dying has been some sort of bad Idea that would result in legacy Dying (mass bannings, mass reprints, new format, all that jazz) and people won't play competitively anymore. AND the claim seems to be that if these things don't happen then too many people(such as myself) will be priced out of ever playing competively.
Fancy Metaphor:
I have in my hand Force of Will, Jace TMS, Goyf, Tundra. Goyf on table, a couple lands out...
It is my opponent's turn,
My opponent casts Silence.
Is legacy in a double-bind?
People should stop worrying about playing THE tier 1 decks and, you know, make their own. Plateau's and Badlands are cheap because there are currently no good decks playing them. I don't have all these money cards but I got a few and I don't see why people are freaking out about not being able to have access to the best decks in the format. Make something new, if everyone started playing more diverse decks then prices would drop. Albeit not substantially in the case of duals or FoWs but they would still drop or at least stabilize.
And I thought the only reason card prices were up was because of inflation from the US dollar?
This is my Signature
After reading this forum for years, I finally decided to register because I wanted so much to give my opinion on this important subject.
As everybody noticed, Legacy popularity reached an all-time high. In the same time, Extended is almost dead, as it only see play during PTQ season, GP, pro tour and Worlds. In local games stores, nobody play Extended. Standard, Limited and Legacy are the only formats played.
The logical next step for Wizard would be to kill Extended and let Legacy take its place as the format for seasonal PTQ, one PT a year and one day at Worlds. But we all know there are not enough cards to allow this. The actual rising of all Legacy prices show in fact that we are reaching the maximum number of Legacy players with the existing cards, even without a PTQ season!
So the card availability must be address as fast as possible. In my opinion, for all the cards that are not on the reserve list, a paper form of Master Edition (created to be draft-friendly as possible) is the best solution to allow an enough high print run. This kind of set can include most staples that didn’t see print since Mirrondin block and that are not on the reserve list: Wasteland, Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, the Darksteel Swords, onslaught fetchlands, etc. In the same time, you can put in a few cards for Commander and a lot of common from any set to allow enjoyable drafts. Obviously, this special set would not be Standard legal.
To address the reserve list problem, Wizard would have to take another solution. The last year announcement is too recent and too strong to hope any rapid abolition of the reserve list. The list was probably kept because of a legal concern making is abolition very unlikely.
If you look at the reserve list, you should notice that most of the cards are either not needed in Legacy or only played in some niches decks. The main problem remains the duals lands. My solution is the following: introduce a snow sub-theme in a block to come, and bring back snow for it. Create ten snow-covered lands (snow-covered Tundra, Taiga, etc) with no drawback. I understand this would be Standard legal, but it will be only for two years, without fetch lands in type 2 and Wizard can put some good snow-hate in the block and limit other color filters in the environment to keep everything balanced.
I am really convinced that even if you double the card pool of Legacy staples, but in the same time promote Legacy to Pro Tour and PTQ status, when the dust will settle, most of the cards will keep about the same value as now because supply AND demand would rise in the same time. But at the end, the Legacy player base would have double.
As we all know, Legacy is an awesome format and deserve to continue to growth.
I'm starting to think you're trolling here, but OK, I'll bite. The main reason why today's Legacy is widely regarded as the best format ever is that you can play anything you want - from monocolored Merfolk to five-colored TES, from aggro to combo to control etc. - and have a reasonable shot at winning with it. Without the original duals most non-monocolored deck would get worse, almost every 3+colored deck would get SIGNIFICANTLY worse, control decks would get worse while fast aggro (Fast Zoo, Affinity, Burn etc.) would get significantly better and so on - long story short, the whole metagame balance would be completely ruined and many archetypes would descend into extinction. I'd rather have high prices than ruined format, thank you.
Yes, I'm aware of the price differences between Europe and USA, but since most of the large, meta-defining tournaments are placed on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean anyway and the whole "Legacy is too expensive" drama is mostly centered around American market, I just took SCG prices as an example.
No. We've been there before: during the last decade we had such narrow, one-set/one-block only mechanics that have zero synergy with previous or next sets at least twice (Snow in Coldsnap and Arcane + Spirit in Kamigawa) and it was very bad for Standard. WotC won't repeat this mistake again.
- What are letters?
- Kinda like mediaglyphics except they're all black, and they're tiny, they don't move, they're old and boring and really hard to read. But you can use'em to make short words for long words.
Straight to the chase, counterfeiting is a moral thing to do?
Legacy is expensive, but hardly 'not accessible'. There are staples exchanging hands and being flown all over the world! As long as players are holding the cards (and it doesn't even have to be their own), Legacy will be played! Given the attendance in the USA and Europe, I can hardly see Legacy go the way of vintage. The same players are going to take their decks out to play week after week and when they sell out, those cards are still going to be played.
I have no idea how vintage costs, but given its combo-centric nature and the 1-off restricted list of blow-out cards, it is a far cry from the variety that we see in Legacy.
If you're going to violate rules to play Legacy with a more optimal build and more cheaply, why not just run $1 Strip Mines instead of Wastelands? You get the best card in that role and you don't violate any intellectual property laws, so the penalty is less severe.
If players want to dress their attempts at counterfeiting cards in some kind of moral crusade, then there's no need to be so sneaky about it. Run your Strip Mines in a sanctioned Legacy event and save $250 from your playset of Wastelands. Let me know how that goes.
(Yes, I am not happy with the rising cost of the format. Counterfeits as a solution to this is "doing it wrong".)
It's not like wizards loses anything from a counterfeit wasteland, they don't sell singles and the packs are out of print. Perhaps if people counterfeit, uh, jace TMS? But worldwake is nearly impossible to find anyway
I will make use of every tool that fate presents.
That's a pretty shortsighted view.
Sure they won't lose anything on that particular wasteland. But knowing that you could obtain counterfeit cards, would you go and buy cards when Wizards releases the next set?
Couterfeiting is not the answer, and anyone trying to justify it by saying it doesn't affect Wizards is fooling themselves.
We lose.
I'm well aware that 3+ colored deck are unplayable with ravnica duals but I doubt tuned multicolor countertop list should be the base of our discussion because Countertop is almost pushed out of the format by aether vial anyway. I believe there's much space in deckbuilding using 2(+Splash maybe) colors in legacy decks. Lot of Decks are already working with 1,5 colors and those CAN be run with Ravnica duals too. I'm aware that Beta Duals are indeed better and the only sane Option to run TES or non-countertopWalker (Works perfectly with 2 colors) Control-decks.
To me it's important that people are able to Play compeditive decks (they are) and not being able to play every netdecked list in paper for free. This is the point I feel we part. Anyway, thank you for trading serious arguments.
The price topic is very complicated if you consider North Amerika, south America, Europe, asia/Australia and Afrika as independent markets. Some guys argue about that topic naming South Amerika and Asia so I thought SCG isn't a very fitting example how much a Card cost. I mentioned the "European" prices to show that there's a different price development especially in terms of reprint's impact. To discuss prices we should watch all of this markets and not only a single trader.
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