I'm thinking the new Cancellor is def. going to need some testing in a more aggro deadguy build. Still only take 4 off Bob, but you don't need to worry about running a ton of sac effects. He'll require an almost mono-black build though, and probably removal of Wasteland.
So there's a couple things I want to say about this list. First I think lifegain is drastically undervalued across all formats. it makes combat math and combo calculations very difficult and sometimes impossible, it's just very good in a lot of situations. Also, there are interactions here I like - Elspeth and SFM are very good here...they are very good at making "bad" creatures good. Lastly, i like that the list allows for some additional equipment, there are many times when I play my list when I really something different for equipment.Originally Posted by Dick Cheese
Ultimately I think the deck has a high dependance on the interactions, so it could be pretty easilly disrupted. In the end I think that you've sacrificed a lot of versatility with your answers (some discard and removal) in order to add lifegain to the deck. The result is the same - a longer game where you stabalize board position. But I tihnk it opens you up to some bad matchups.
Lastly - people keep talking about zoo, fish, and goblins as if we need to improve those matchups...I just don't see it. Personally, I'm more worried about Combo than any aggro deck. With 10 maindeck removal spells, and 8-10 maindeck discard spells we should really have no issue with any of these decks...there are only a few key cratuers that we need to kill in these matches in order to win, and we can get there pretty easilly. My suggestion is that if you're having a difficult time against these lists that you just test more - aim for lords, and be sure to Run Perish for "big zoo" (GSZ, hierarch, KotR, Goyf builds). Hontestly, my success against Fish and goblins is one of the main reasons I run this deck - becausre i can beat them and still play wasteland to face off against rock and zoo. I've faced very few creature decks that represent any issues for the deck.
I'm having a difficult time justifying the removal of Sculler and wasteland so that I can play this guy, when i can just run Percy and gain evasion and turn up the clock. I'm not saying I'm right to write this guy off, but I'm just not there yet.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
With my "stifle-proof" mana base everythin in my deck makes black except one plains and wasteland. I think it could easily make it into my build and have no problem hardcasting it, or getting BB up to cast it off a ritual. I was just thinking about that tonight at work, removing Avenger for the Cancellor would be awesome sauce.
Hey,
i was rly pissed off.
First, my mana base was not really good.
1x Karakas
1x Urborg
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Swamp
4x Srubland
1x Plains
I couldnt do anything with this manabase ( Thats not a reason that it is a bad one bokwinkle, it's just bad for my decklist )
So i had to change my manabase to this :
5x Swamp
3x Plains
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Bloodstained Mire
I had no problems yesterday.
Now to my Non-land cards :
//Creatures 16
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Abyssal Persecutor
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Nighthawk
//Sorceries 15
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourarch
4x Vindicate
//Instants 4
4x Swords to Plowshares
//Artifacts 5
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Sensei's Diving Top
I won't list my Sideboard, because each meta is different.
I won against my friend from *The Gate* thread and it was a 2-1.
After this we had a next game 1-0.
I was really happy with my draw!
I wouldn't play less than 20 lands period, especially considering Wasteland as a 0-cost land destruction spell and not really a land. If you're using Vial (and maybe SDT's) then Wasteland can be a little more effectice as a land to provide mana and 20 is a good number. If you're NOT using Vials and are leaning towards Ritz, I would play a minimum of 21 lands and make sure all of them provided black mana.
My point with Bokwinkle about choosing which to play on turn 1, Ritz or Vial, was more directed towards the control matchup. If you're playing against blue, if they have Force in hand, they'll use it on Vial for sure. If you're on the draw and they have an Island in play and a Daze in hand, they will counter the Dark Ritual, it doesn't make sense to wait for when they have the mana to pay for it. So my point is this: whoever wins the die roll makes a significant difference in play strategy. If you're on the draw and they have an Island, I wouldn't play Dark Ritual on the first turn. I'd try and play Thoughtseize. If you don't have Thoughtseize and only Vial or Ritz, what do you do? Do you attempt it or do you wait? Dark Ritual can open up a situation where you get 2-for-1-ed. Vial is a 1-for-1 trade if countered, and most likely your only chance for winning against a deck with countermagic. If you're using Lotus Petal (which they won't counter, most likely...) you have mana open to prevent the Daze situation without too much risk. You have the 1 available and Lotus Petal becomes a 0 cost Daze-counterspell in effect. This is why I support Petal over Dark Ritual. Petal helps offset the lack of black mana from Wasteland while also getting down uncountered most of the time. Dark Ritual opens you up to card disadvantage, more so than Lotus Petal. Just my opinion here...take it or leave it.
In a nutshell, if you want Percy, play Dark Ritz. If you want Vial, you need an almost all-bear approach and Lotus Petal helps you with get bears down turn 1 and skirt Daze. If you want neither, curve out better with threats from 1-3 mana. I'd suggest 21 lands in a buld with Percy, too.
Last edited by Mr. Safety; 04-15-2011 at 10:36 AM.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I've always had a tough time with Zoo. It seems like they run enough removal to handle all our guys, but more of their own guys than we have removal for, and sticking a Library just lets them play right through discard. Between pings from fetches, Bob, and Thoughtseize, it just takes them a couple swings to get you within burn range. The only times I win against Zoo are when I get perfect draws, early Ritual into discard, Wasteland to keep them off a color. Usually though that has to combine with them having terrible draws, which doesn't happen that often when your deck is just Burn, guys, and land. That being said, this is with an older list that didn't bother with SFM tech and Perish in the SB, maybe that just makes all the difference. Goblins and Merfolk were a bit better, but again it always seemed like a matter of always drawing well, if you can't disrupt early then start consistently dropping threats, they can bounce back pretty easily. Hitting a midgame Hymn against goblins is like shooting yourself in the foot, because they can topdeck a ringleader, draw 4 more guys, then dump them all the same turn.
And about lifegain, it's generally seen as not very good, but it makes a huge difference. Generating blockers and life off Bitterblossom is really annoying, and it lets me do crazy things like have two Bobs in play and still beat Goblins sitting on 26 life. Also helps against Storm combo, just by forcing them to get higher storm count, and also giving you way more time against EtW.
I beat Goblins and some NO-Pro list yesterday with it, but I'm not finding many control/combo matchups on Cockatrice, I think it's just a pain in the ass dealing with the interface and more complex interactions I guess.
I'm not suggesting that this is the way the Deck should go, it's just an idea that has so far had better results than I expected, so I thought I'd share. If the meta is going to shift to Spiral Tide and CB, then obviously this isn't going to fair well.
@bokwinkle
Whats your current list?
Edit: Also decided I'm taking out mother of runes in my sfm based list. I read Matt Elias article over on SCG today and he was hating on mother of runes. So I sat down and thought about it and you know what, shes bad in most of our matches. Even in the ones shes good in, shes not gamebreaking or anything. Not sure how I'm going to restructure the list but shes out I know. I was running 3x btw.
Last edited by markbris; 04-14-2011 at 11:29 PM.
good to hear someone else has rallied to the "hate mom" cause. lol. The list that I'm currently running that is "most tested" is as follows:
20 lands
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
4 Swamp
21 creatures
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phrexian Revoker
2 artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
17 Control
4 Dark ritutal
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
Sideboard
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Mindbreak Trap
I'm currently testing a host of other cards and/or lists, but this is my "tried and true" list that I've actually had success with locally. The board is pretty close for most meta's I think (Canonist, Plague, and Perish are pretty universal), the Edict and Trap spots are generally flex spots in the board.
I know that the mana base can give some people fits, but I haven't had any issues with it (yet) as far as color screw or quantitiy - but I'm also lucky enough to randomly topdeck my Karakas against Emmy decks...so, I'd test before I used it.
Generally it's an 'ok' starting point though.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
now that cards are starting to be spoiled from the new set, I'm curious as to what people think may effect us.
Is the R/W sword as good as everyone was hoping? How many equipment should we run now?
Will the new Free Counterspell absolutely destroy us? Or, is it worth running somewhere in our 75?
Free Extirpate better than just plain old Extirpate? Do we even run Extirpate now that the Free counterspell is around and combo may take a nose-dive? How many sideboard slots should we be dedicating to combo for the GP with the shake-up by the new set?
Will free spells slow down the meta or make it faster? Does our deck get better or worse?
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
I think the sword is good for the protection colors, but can't stop removal in response to equipping so maybe pointless. It's secondary abilities are so conditional that I'm inclined to just ignore them. You might have one swing that is just nuts, and another that does nothing. I think SoFI is probably the best option, then the rest in no particular order. I think I'll probably go with Feast/Famine because it gives you a persistent threat to their hand, with protection from KotR/Goyf.
Mental Misstep (free counter) is getting a ton of hype right now, although personally I think it will be of limited use outside T1, but is it really good enough T1 to take up four spots trying to get one in your opener? I do think it's going to see play though, and will make Vial significantly less good. Honestly in recent testing I haven't found Vial to be that hot anyway, even in lists that have been tweaked to try and abuse it as much as possible. In most situations I've just felt like it dilutes the T1 plays, and would rather have Ritual back.
Surgical Extraction is good, but not better than Extirpate if you're already playing black. Reanimator and combo run proactive protection like chant/duress anyway so it's really only going to save you from getting blown out by Dredge on the play. Uncounterable seems better in most situations IMO. I think Extirpate is extremely undervalued. It really shines against control, removing their counters or even keeping people off a color (if you run Waste), or removing threats from lists that rely on 4-8 big beaters to win.
Yeah, anyone posted a comment :)
I don't think we can use this new Sword because its abilities aren't usable because of discard.
You gain life and the enemies lose life. But normally they shouldn't have any cards in his or her hand.
Personally i would run this free counter in our sideboard because several decks are running cc1-cards and it's a big advantage to slow them down.
Free extirpate is nice, but as Richard Cheese already said:
Uncounterable seems better in most situations
Btw, i'm again thinking about a little green splash. Saw at Youtube a Deadguy deck with green ( no list -.- )
And i like it more and more.
K1w1 :)
If you are thinking about adding colors and good cards to the deck with almost no downside, you should probably check out another thread as that is not tolerated here. I would suggest here.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
nope..
SoWaP is life based on cards in your hand, so bob will fuel the swords lifegain. Cos of the the low mana curve the Sword MIGHT make it quite easy to sustain multiple bobs active at the same time. Can see the damage effect do alot of pressure on my opponent just to lower the damage he will take extra from the sword. Even if it only does 4 damage it still pretty much makes our clock 2 times as fast, while lowering their clock depending on how many cards we are holding in our hand currently. Think its gonna be quite hard for decks like zoo wich are going down on burn for Zenith. Active Sword on Nighthawk is pretty much game over, almost impossible to outrace that if you are keeping a hand of 7 + draws from drawstep + bobs. Should Defenetly be tested out, I for one will :P
For the equipements I really like Jitte, Sofaf and SoFaI, Tested body and mind as well its works out quite well. Gives bodies, protection from most bigger creatures in combat but also protection from Merfolk creatures and Jace and Sower of Temptation.
For SoLaS I rather have that in my board. Not very often I want that equipment compared to SOFAF, Jitte or SOFAI.
Link to video?
So I'm worried about mental mistep leading to an increase in counter-top strategies, since vial was one of it's biggest issues. i'm not worried about mistep itself, per se.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Never had much trouble against CB, although I used to always run Tombstalker (because I'm apparently just that fucking crazy). Game 1 is rough, but bring in Extirpate for 2 and 3 and nail FoW with it as early as possible. They also tend to be super light on threats, so if you can get a goyf in the yard, or even trop and Extirpate either of those, you've bought yourself gobs of time.
I'm more worried about Bant lists, as they tend to run a pretty strong counter suite, but with more and bigger dudes than CB, ditto for Team America. Whether misstep will make it into those lists (possibly replacing spell snare?) is yet to be seen though.
With Mental Misstep on our doorstep right now, and a possibilty of a resurgence of CB, is it time to bring back Unmask? It easily dodges both of the problems, unlike all the other discard that we are running at the moment (Hymn dodges Misstep but most don't play it)
The biggest buzz is over Mental Misstep...which will be a great addition to legacy, for sure. Surgical Extraction is solid tech as well, but I think what most folks are forgetting is this: it isn't ALWAYS the best play to pay 2 life instead of B or U. They are cheap to begin with, and sometimes free. THIS is what makes them so damn good, not just the free aspect. They still belong in their constituent colors (U and B) or decks where they would already get played (like Extirpate and Daze)
I see Mental Misstep being a lot closer to Daze than Force of Will...because of the early game aspect of it. I like what it can do against TES/ANT when they Duress/Orim's Chant before combo-ing out...I'm just not sure if it's worth the slots. Daze bounces an Island...MM digs you for 2 life to be free. It's a toss up...but I think overall everyone will agree that Daze is better, especailly against decks that tap out. I still see Spell Pierce as thte best compliment counterspell to Daze, because folks play around Daze with a spare land up, but Pierce can offset that by forcing them to have 2 spare lands up. Virtual Card Advantage wins over free counterspells imho...especially considering the speed of the format changing (I think it's slowing down a little bit...look at zoo with GSZ, and the Gate instead of Suicide Black...)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
well, there's a lot of discussion on Mistep throughout the the "magic world"...generally the consensus that I'm seeing among more professional players is for non-control decks running mistep is "you still have to remove relevant cards from your deck to include countermagic", and the consensus for control decks is "we don't really need more counters".
Among "non-pro's" I feel like many people have already decided it's just good and they are going to run it in any deck they make. There are many people that say "every legacy deck just became 56 cards".
Honestly, like most new cards, I think that the reality is somewhere in the middle. It's obviously a good card, how played it is will remain to be seen. It will be everywhere at the GP though, especially in Day 1. At the very least it counters all of our discard (unless you run hymn) and Swords - at it's worst it counters Mom, Vial, Dark Ritual and all of the discard and swords. Bottom line, this card is not good for us. It's not as bad for us as it is for a deck like ANT or Reanimator, but it's bad.
The extraction...I'm not sold on for black decks. Generally, by the time you want to use extirpate you have the 1 black mana you need for it, and uncounterable is just huge - especially when the CMC is 1 (see above).
The card I'm kind of excited about is Dismember:
1-PB-PB
Instant
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.
For 1 colorless and 4 life you can kill pretty much any creature in legacy that can be targeted - at instant speed. Plus it's 3 CMC gets around a lot of counterbalance strategies. I think this is going to be a solid piece of removal for a lot of decks. It's not an ideal fit for our deck because we already have acess to swords and vindicate, but for decks in colors with very little removal options (U/g or U, or G) I think this card will shine. Even in black decks this card may see play...we'll see.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
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