[Deck] The Rock

[RexFTW]

my problems against zoo are probably because i lack the real duals and am using the shocklands, but i am trying to hit myself as few times as possible..... either way, got to get the real ones

my suggestion:
get 1 of each dual, then play the mirroden lands that come into play tapped if you have 4 or more lands. This is better than playing shock lands and inexpensive. This would give you 3 lands your knights cannot utilize, but should give you untapped lands for the first few turns without taking damage.

[Arsenal]

Problem is that Scars of Mirrodin duals are only friendly-colored. So while you'd have a Green/White dual at your disposal (which we already have in Horizon Canopy), you would not have a Black/White or Black/Green. Considering that black mana in the early game is crucial to our gameplan (Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach), I don't agree that the Scars of Mirrodin duals are the way to go. I'd probably just go to 9 fetches and run more basic lands before playing stuff like Scars of Mirrodin duals.

[RexFTW]

Arsenal is right, my bad.

[Arsenal]

I mean, if you're playing 3 color, the ABUR dual lands are pretty much required. 2 color decks can get away with not running duals because of fetches + basics (although even then it's suboptimal), but 3 color decks? You really, really need true duals. This deck already takes a bunch of self-inflicted damage (Thoughtseize, Confidant, Horizon Canopy) that any additional self-inflicted damage will tip the scales in your opponent's favor.

[Nelis]

Hi guys, Ive been wanting to play The Rock for ages but never really felt comfortable with the deck type (the thin line between playing it as aggro and control) until the printing of Green Sun's Zenith. I am an aggro player so I like to play as many creatures as possible and I like the Zenith for that and because it enables a creature toolbox. Below is the list I've come up with and I'm quite happy with it. I'd mainly like your thoughts on my sideboard but if you have any comments on the main deck they're welcome too. A few exceptions: I dont like Mox Diamond in this deck, and I'm not too keen on running more copies of TOP although I might consider running a 2nd copy if you can convince me its really necessary :-) Ill get into my metagame after the decklist.

//Lands 23
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou

// creatures 19
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

// spells 18
1 Elpeth, Knight Errant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Inquisition of Krozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

Our metagame is usually an aggro/control metagame but once in a while combo shows up but regulars usually play non-combo. This was the top 8 of last time:

1. UGR Feries (but runs more goyfs than faeries)
2. Counterthopter
3. Belcher
4. Affinity (tezzeret/master of etherium version)
5. Charbelcher pact SI (Tendrills/charbelcher combo)
6. Pox
7. Affinity (aggro signalpest version)
8. white weenie (Heavy Equipment/Etched Champion version)

For decklists see: (dutch site) http://magicgroningen.editboard.com/...de-drogisterij

Some more info on our metagame: I'm usually the only one who plays Zoo. I also play Goblins but that deck is sometimes played by others as well. Decks that almost always show up are Affinity and Pox. And I always expect a few blue based decks.

I was thinking of putting 2 Enlightened Tutors in the sideboard that can fetch at least one copy of Null Rod and one copy of Pernicious Deed. I'd also like to put in a Cold-Eyed Selkie and a Harmonic Sliver. The rest is up for debate. Just one more thing: I don't own a Karakas (but I dont think its really necessary in my metagame) and I only own one Null Rod. I own most other possible sideboard cards like Extirpate, Plague, Gaddock Teeg and such.

So, it's very appreciated if you could help me with my sideboard. Thanx.

[Dzra]

Just to check back in, I've tested a fair amount with the Vial Mystic version of the deck that I posted several pages back. The final list I settled on was basically BW Tempo with a Green splash just for Goyf. It wasn't bad at all, but I don't feel like it's the right deck for the meta. Essentially, it's mana was somewhat unstable and I just didn't care for the playstyle as well. If anyone is interested in a list, just message me.

So, I've come back to the more traditional build except I'm looking for more room for hand disruption. I have the 4 Hymns, 4 Thoughtseize, and I'll be adding 2 Gerrard's Verdicts and 2-3 Inquisitions. I know that's more hand disruption than a lot of you like, but based on how my games usually pan out, I'll be giving it a try.

A couple questions. Singleton Eternal Witness VS singleton Maelstrom Pulse. Both are CA. Witness is usually a much stronger source of quality and CA than Pulse, however, Pulse comes down sooner (than the card that you'd retrieve). Next, classic Stronghold Mox Diamond VS FTV Mox Diamond. I have a very soft spot for foils, but I can't decide which is the pimper: foil or old school? ;P

I'll most the results once I get more testing in.

[AggroSteve]

i would allways go with oldschool, i just hate the other artwork

[Derm]

[4] Dark Confidant
[4] Tarmogoyf
[4] Knight of the Reliquary
[2] Terravore

[4] Thoughtseize
[1] Inquisition of Kozilek
[4] Hymn to Tourach

[4] Swords to Plowshares
[4] Vindicate
[2] Engineered Explosives

[3] Sensei's Divining Top

[4] Bayou
[4] Scrubland
[1] Savannah
[1] Swamp
[2] Horizon Canopy
[4] Wasteland
[4] Verdant Catacombs
[4] Marsh Flats

Sideboard:

[2] Condemn
[2] Go for the Throat
[2] Nihil Spellbomb
[1] Bojula Bog
[3] Gaddock Teeg
[2] Consuming Vapors
[2] Krosan Grip
[1] Engineered Explosives

[Arsenal]

Been thinking of running 2 EE over 2 Deed as well. Deed is great as a mid-late game card if you need to reset the board, but early game against Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo, EE @ 1 or 2 is a turn faster, and that generally makes all the difference versus those decks. Plus, EE's cmc is 0, so that helps with Confidant triggers too.

[RexFTW]

This may be useful for the original guide. The deck generally breaks down like this:

8 Fat creatures
10 discard spells
8 removal spells
7 "topdeck mode" spells (ie Sensei's top, Dark Confiant, equipment)
4 "tempo" slots (mox diamond or 1 cc spells or sweepers)
23 lands

60 cards

number of sideboard cards you need for each matchup to remove bad cards:
Aggro: 2-4 (remove some discard)
Storm Combo: 4 if playing removal that is good vs them (ie vindicate), 8 if siding out all removal.
Graveyard decks: 4-8 sorcery removal and topdecek mode cards can come out
Control: none
natural order: 3-4 answers must come in or you will have trouble

Notice that adds up to more than 15 cards. You will need to find some cards that are good in more than one matchup. IE extirpate is good vs combo and graveyard, diabolic edict is good vs tribal and progenitus.

[sdematt]

Old Mox Diamond is far more pimp, since you can always go with German, Japanese, or even Korean if your pocketbook can handle it. Promo foil is kinda sad due to crappy picture and high availability.

-Matt

[Derm]

I'd like to talk about options for the sideboard. What really beats combo? I'm pretty unimpressed with Extirpate, even though that's the catch-all Dredge/Combo answer that people have been using. LSV made some pretty pointed comments about that strategy here: http://www.channelfireball.com/video-archive/magic-tv-show-85-gp%E2%80%94dfw-jace-and-more/

I sort of agree with him. The plan of Thoughtseize your key card, then Extirpate it is pretty slow, somewhat reactive, and weak all around. I have Gaddock Teeg in my board against combo and Nihil Spellbomb/Bojuka Bog against Dredge and other graveyard strategies.

[2] Condemn
[2] Go for the Throat
[2] Nihil Spellbomb
[1] Bojuka Bog
[3] Gaddock Teeg
[2] Consuming Vapors
[2] Krosan Grip
[1] Engineered Explosives

I'm not sure I need the Krosan Grips, though I liked having them vs. Countertop strategies because all of my spells fit in the 3cmc or lower soft lock. Do I need more nontargeted removal? Currently I'm leaning on Consuming Vapors as an answer to Progenitus. I really dislike Tariff, but maybe there's no better option. Also, what helps in combo matchups? Something other than Extirpate.

[Arsenal]

CounterTop has been pushed out of the meta due to Vial decks... which we also have a rough time against coincidentally. I dislike Bojuka Bog in general. Sure, it's cute when you can KotR it into play at a crucial moment, but often times, I'm either dead by then or they're dead by then (you got to untap with KotR... you're doing pretty well).

I've always been an advocate of the E Tutor SB. I typically run 4 Leylines (Santicity or Void, depending on what I think will be played), 3 E Tutor, then 8 artifact/enchantments; 2 Plague, 1 Dueling Grounds, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 EE, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Serenity, etc.

[sdematt]

The key to beating combo is disruption + clock. If you can Thoughtseize and Hymn away key cards while having another speedbump (hate-bear) before they can go off with a clock, you've won.

Ideally, I'd love to run 10 discard main, and then additional Teeg/Cannonist in the board, but there's only 15 slots to work with, and other matchups might be more prevalent, depending on your meta.

In the main, you could run: 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Inquisition of Kozilek.

In the board, you could run 3 Gaddock Teeg and 3 Extirpate, or if you're feeling really hateful, a set of Leyline of Sanctity. Teegs will slow them down considerably, and Extirpate keeps them off of the safety of IGGY loop (which allows them to build 3-4 Storm without losing life, which is key when you're apply pressure and they can't Ad Nauseum). Engineered Explosives or Deed (but moreso the former) shuts off the Empty the Warrens route entirely, forcing them into a plan that may not get them there. This is key.

When I'm playing Dreadstill against them, it's true I have counters, but by forcing them into the Tendrils plan, they can't wimp out and just get 5 Storm and kill me eventually, they have to go all the way.

Sometimes, they'll just get you, and that's the way it goes, but you can improve your odds.

What I'm really looking for is the meta to slow down by a turn, that's all. Let my Landstill deck becomes playable again, and make this deck infinitely better :P

@ Deed vs. EE

I'm curious as to why you'd want to do this. I understand it's better in some ways because you're not blowing up your own crap, but with the rising cost of the format, you'll encounter more Affinity and random decks that absolutely fold to Deed. I'd most definitely keep at least 2 between the main and side. Maybe 2 EE main and 2 Deed side?

-Matt

[Arsenal]

I've been finding Deed, especially on the draw, to be 1-2 turns too slow versus Goblins and Merfolk... two of the most problematic matchups for us. Deed is better versus slower, more random stuff, but EE just seems to be better versus the tuned aggro Vial decks.

[2Rach]

Sure, it's cute when you can KotR it into play at a crucial moment, but often times, I'm either dead by then or they're dead by then (you got to untap with KotR... you're doing pretty well)

This oversimplifies greatly and in my experience is untrue.

Keep one Bog in the 75. It's just wrong not to have one with four Knights in the deck. You don't die by turn four against any deck you'd want it against as long as long as they don't get very lucky and you're disrupting them in some way. On a scale of 1-10 Bog is about a 5 and Nihil Spellbomb is an 8. Having a virtual extra four grave hate in the form of Knight (and effectively making it instant) pushes it into viability.

I have Gaddock Teeg in my board against combo and Nihil Spellbomb/Bojuka Bog against Dredge and other graveyard strategies.

Keep in mind Teeg is also good against Dredge. It stops Dread Return from being played and sometimes can stop a Breakthrough.


This is my anti-combo package currently:
4 Duress
2 Teeg
X whatever mass kills goblin tokens
(9 discard 2 Deeds main, Mox build)


ET sounds really good the more I think about it. It lets me fit in the one Engineered Plague, gives redundancy, all while making room for other stuff. I'll try and test something like this sideboard in the future:
4x Duress / -1+1 Teeg
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Perish
1x Elspeth, Knight-errant
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Engineered Plague
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Path to Exile / Diabolic Edict
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Bojuka Bog

[Arsenal]

I think it really depends. Like I said, my board looks like 4 Leyline (Void or Sanctity depending on my mood), then my E Tutor targets will adjust. If I'm running Leyline of the Void, I won't have Tormod's Crypt, Spellbomb, Bojuka Bog, etc in there as targets.

I've played with 1-of Bog and never really liked it. Like I said, there were times it was a BLOWOUT, but more often than not, I wish that I had a Crypt/Spellbomb I could've tutored on turn 1 as opposed to a turn 4 tutor with KotR. I suppose if you're not running E Tutor, then you may find KotR -> Bog to be great, but for me, I'd much rather E Tutor for Crypt/Nihil early game.

RE: Deed being good versus Affinity, I run Serenity as a 1-of in my SB as an E Tutor target against Affinity/Enchantress/Thopters/etc, so that is sorta pushing me towards EE as EE shores up, ever so slightly, our Gobbos and Merfolk g1 matchups.

[RexFTW]

I've been finding Deed, especially on the draw, to be 1-2 turns too slow versus Goblins and Merfolk... two of the most problematic matchups for us. Deed is better versus slower, more random stuff, but EE just seems to be better versus the tuned aggro Vial decks.

are you playing mox diamond? I find deed to be insane vs 'folk.

[sdematt]

Deed is better against Folk than Goblins, because Goblins just regenerates their hand like a champ. with Folk having no card advantage (no "ringleader" effect), I like Deed here. Gobbos, not so much.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

I do not run Mox Diamond. Perhaps that's why I'm finding Deed to be a bit too slow. I really, really dislike the inconsistency of Mox Diamond as you tend to keep greedy hands, activating Deed w/ Diamond on board = bleh, and it's 100% dead mid-late game when I'd rather be topdecking ANYTHING else (I'd even want to topdeck a fetchland as a fetchland will add value to my Top, make a KotR bigger, etc).