Kinda off-topic:Originally Posted by troopatroop
People have repeatedly posted lists with Bloodbraid Elf here. And a few pages earlier and longer ago, if I remember correctly, some veterans were discussing the idea of replacing Grim Lavamancer with Mother of Runes. This isn't traditional in any way, but still sounds like it's worth trying. I agree the list needs some changing to make it better, but I wouldn't discount it automatically on the basis that it's playing non-standard cards, which in fact might be good.
Wow, lots of responses. Thanks for all the input, I'll see if I can get some SFM's and Grimies, put in 4x Tarmogoyf, 2x KotR.
As to Swords over PtE, I do see what you mean with the lifegain, but I'd rather give them that life than a free land which will out tempo myself.
Will throw more fetches in, been looking for Windswept Heath playset for ages now. Will re-post updated version later on tonight. I can get into better details later as well. :D
Thought I should input something here.
Mother of Runes is all in all a nice card with alot of applications but Zoo isn't one of em imho. It is not a tempo card it is a control card if anything. I tried playing 4 then 3 then 2 then 0. It wins some games when you can give your Knight or Goyf prot something and get dmg in past their blockers but those times are far between.
Bloodbraid Elf is also a great card, in the old T2 jund decks. In Zoo its kinda bad when you spend 4 mana to cast it and it cascades into a Path/Sword/Bolt. Sure you might get to target an opponents creature with the removal but if you dont the Elf is just a 3/2 hasted creature for 4 mana wich is realy bad.
Grim Lavamancers are great even with Goyfs. Chances are that your opponent also has a few lands and instants in his graveyard so removing your own isnt that bad.
This is the list I am running atm and so far it has been great to me:
CREATURES (22)
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Kird Ape
2 Figure of Destiny
1 Terravore
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Gaddock Teeg
ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Sylvan Library
SORCERIES (7)
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Chain Lightning
INSTANTS (9)
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
LANDS (20)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Wasteland
Only card I'm not sure on is the Figures. They are kinda slow and only good in late game if they survive. But atm I'm at a loss to find another 1 mana creature to replace it with.
Ps. Forgive my spelling, english is not my first language.
Playing Magic is like eating soup with a fork. You can't seem to get enough.
yeah Zein, Goyfs are auto include. and from my past experiences of playing zoo in many tournaments (from scg events to small side tournys), Sylvan Library should be 2 of... they are just too good. I can recall one instance where i had a goyf and so did my opponent while he was at 6 life... and then he casts another one... and then a chump blocker while i got my library onto the field... and after getting a free sensei's top activation, i topped decked a lightning bolt and a chain lightning ftw. its just good at giving you options, especially with all of the suffle effects from fetches. but i do gotta say though that StPs are decent, you are right about giving them free mana since i did lose a game before like that against decks that were able to use the mana to kill me the next turn... but with the few lands that we do run, its helped me out before where after getting wastelanded one to two times per game, i had to StP my nacatl to their goyf and PtE it before combat damage.... thats one of the main reasons why i run PtE.
But get a list up again, i wanna see where u go about with your stuff. i would post my list but i almost always change a thing or 4... and u also should consider Green Sun Zenith.... i honestly used to think it sucked, but after much playtesting and much thinking, its just so good... i dont run 4 though since i need lots of burn/removal too, i would say 3 is good enough. They really work wonders for you. When i see the opponent fetch up an underground sea and such, i alrdy assume they are playing TES or ANT... so i usually GSZ for my 1 of MD Gaddock teeg.... and manytimes they will counter the GSZ but lose another blue card usually because of playing they Force of Wills so its still a 2for1 deal. and if they dont counter it, then thats good for you.
On a side note, if you do run Elspeth, Knight Errant, shes such a house VS pretty much anything... she will also take pressure off you from bolts and creatures... basically shes a lightning bolt every turn, thats how i see cause of the evasion and the +3/+3 she gives. anyways i talk too much... i have bad grammar too according to some of these ppl on here... but its cool, cant please everybody...
Your writing is still barely intelligible. In order to comply with the rules of this site and not receive yet more penalties, begin to spell and write in correct English. Thank you. ~Nihil Credo
Last edited by Nihil Credo; 04-15-2011 at 12:27 PM.
dont worry man, english isnt my first language either... but being in the States did help me pick up quick, nice list btw.
well, I'm testing this list now:
( I taked out my loved PoP, and I made the md strongest against mirror and all another aggros, this way let me take no one card in sb against aggro decks (i was used volcanic fallout, cuz is just awesome, but we can take out).
20 lands (1 canopy, 9 fetch)
4 goyf
4 qasali
4 nacatl
4 ape
3 lavamancer
2 kotr
1 gaddock
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 path
3 chain lightning
3 gsz
-----
1 gaddock
3 pop
3 reb
2 null rod
2 tariff
2 enlightened tutor
1 canonist
1 relic of progenitus
well, i'm test a lot this against a dark horizon today and sounds good.
sry bad english.
can anyone know's how to deal with Humility? with out main board Gaddock Teeg?
what is the best way to do when dealing against Landstill Walkers with mainboard humility?
Krosan Grip or Back to Nature
Is five color Zoo still prevelant? I have not seen any reports on these style of Zoo. Domain Zoo would use things like Might of Alara. Sounds bad typing it, but the deck can actually not fold to Wasteland like many other decks do and still find the three lands needed to complete the Domain requirement. I just think it makes Zoo even more dangerous since your basically plodding around with five colors of the best possible beats. (This could mean Confidant, Ape, Goyf, Nacatl) and then paying a G for a pseudo 'Lightning Bolt' plus two. The other good one was Gaea's Might. You could also run Tribal Flames for a potential five damage spell for a one and a R. I think Domain combinations is a good way for Zoo to fight big things. Yeah Merfolk and Goblins wastelands will potentially ruin your day. But is three color Zoo that much better aside from consitancy?
Also, with the new fetches does this open up even more creativity for our mana base/better deck search? I do not think Tribal Flames is going to be that much of a 'bomb' spell for a two mana slot, but the other two Might cards are a worthy addition at dealing the damage on the five color turf.
You also get good sideboard options. Five colors means your never limited as far as that atleast. I think being able to hardcast a Mindbreak Trap is very much win too.
But that's exactly how it folds to Wasteland. It's got the most vunlerable mana base in the last 100 years, and it loses the consistency which is one of the selling points of running Zoo.
To be honest, the idea of playing a five-colour aggro deck frightens me (Dredge does not count). I always kinda thought that anything except RGW Zoo was a joke.
Dark Confidant makes black good, and Blue is the best color in legacy. It can most definitely be done.
I can def see adding black for confidant and thoughtseize but i really don't see what blue adds.
Play burn. Humility shouldn't be a problem for a reasonably aggroish Zoo list - at least much less so than Wrath of God (and no one plays that). Zoo isn't supposed to be an answer-to-their-mediocre-answer-deck. Instead, you have to make sure to play (quick) threats.
So i went to a small Legacy tournament this weekend. Not gonna write up a proper report but I will give some feedback on good/bad cards.
I did not do so well in the tournamnet finnishing at a very embarasing 2-3-0. But i mainly blame myslef and not the deck. Not a good day to quite smoking...
This was the list i ended up taking. A few quick notes, I forgot my taigas at home and had to run stomping grounds instead, i managed to borrow one just as the tournament started.
CREATURES (22)
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Kird Ape
2 Figure of Destiny
1 Terravore
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Gaddock Teeg
ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Sylvan Library
SORCERIES (7)
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Chain Lightning
INSTANTS (9)
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Lightning Helix
LANDS (20)
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Taiga
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Wasteland
SB:
2 Null Rod
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
3 Ethwesworn Canonist
3 Tariff
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Choke
Round 1 against Green and Taxes.
Game one I mulligan to four on the play, awsome start to the day. I end up with 1 Kird Ape 2 Bolts and a Fetch.
I play the monkey and hope for some more beaters from the top deck gods but instead i get 4 lands. Needles to say i lose that game to Mother of Runes and Mangara going nuts.
SB: -1 Teeg -1 Kird Ape -2 PoP... +1 Pithing Needle +3 Ancient Grudge
Game 2 I start of by dropping Needle naming Vial wich is preaty mucg Good game since he hels a hand with 2 Savannahs and I Waste the first one on turn 2. I beat with Goyf and Nacatl and take care of the few threats he manage to drop with Bolts.
Game 3 I mulligan to 6 and keep a hand without artifact hate and gets punished for it, he drops 2 Vials early and i only draw one Pridemage to take care of one. Its a long game with both of us having the upper hand at diffrent times. I end up losing to 2 Serra Avenger wich i didnt find removal for.
0-1
Round 2 against, wait for it...... Dracoplosion! For the ppl that dont know what that is its an old extended deck that won by playing Erratic Explosion and revealing Draco for 16 to the head,
Game 1. I keep a realy good hand with 2 Nacatl, Pridemage, Bolt, Path and lands. He mulligans to 5 and i feel a win coming on. But alas the head judge appears at my side wanting to deck check me... Turns out i didnt write down the taiga on my decklist and instead left it with 2 Stomping Grounds. I get a game loss and we procede to game 2.
SB: None, didnt know what he was playing.
Game 2 I keep a decent hand with some threats. My I beat fast with Nactl and Pridemage. My opponent drops basic lands, mountain, swamp and island and bolts me instead of my creatures. Wich I find weird But on the end of my turn 3 he plays a Lim Duls Vaoult and looks through a bit of his library and then untaps and plays Erratic Explosion. Im completly confused by this and reads the card and then says ok. He flips the top card and its none other then DRACO himself. I take 16 and die.
I cant help but laugh and take it like a man :P The guy im playing turns out to be a realy nice guy and we chat for a while and he tells me about his deck.
0-2
I should have dropped here but I figured what the hell my train dosent leave for another 4 Hours.
Round 3 against Dreadstill.
Not sure on this round but as far as i remember He won the first game with a dreadnought coming down early as hell.
SB: -1 Kird Ape -2 Lightning Helix ...... +3 Ancient Grudge
Game 2 is a long a nice game wich i end up winning with Price of Progress for lethal just as he resolves Dreadnought.
Game 3 I keep a nice hand with a shaky manabase. And i get punnished for it. I play right into his stifle on my first fetch. I then play a dual wich gets wasted and so on. I end up lossing the game ith nothing on the board except for a basic forrest wich i drew.
0-3
Round 4 agains the infaous BYE
N/A
1-3
Round 5 against the Rock with darkdepths/hexmage combo.
Game one we trade blows and spells. He ends up with the upper hand and im facing an army of 2 Knights 2 Goys and a Dark Confidant. Price of Progress comes down and seals the deal for 12 damage. He did not see that one coming.
SB: -1 Gaddock Teeg -1 Kird Ape ....... +2 Tormods Crypt.
Game 2 plays alot like the first but i get a ibrary active early and on my first draw step using it i see Path, Bolt and Path. Nice.
He drops threats and i exile them. He drops Dark Depths and i shit myself, didnt see that coming. I get an active night tho wich finds me a wasteland and he concedes the game.
2-3
All in all the deck felt good and if i had played like i should i would have done alot better. But hey nicotine withdrawls and not having played magic in a tournament for almost a year...
The cards that I am gonna replace are 1 Kird Ape, he just sucks. He's a filler card and i always wish he was something else. He turned into a Ranger of Eos for my next tournament in a week. I was a bit worried about the cmc 4 but as a one off it should be fine. And he is as good as it gets when it comes to card advantage in white.
Secondly I replaced Terravore with a 3rd Knight. Everytime i drew him I wanted him to be a Knight and I never fetched him with GSZ.
Other then that I'm happy with the list. I might try Enlightened Tutor in the SB but not sure yet.
The best card was without a doubt Price of Progress Maindeck.
As always sorry for spelling and grammar, english is not my first language. Hope this was of some use.
Playing Magic is like eating soup with a fork. You can't seem to get enough.
Has anyone seen the new Clone?
It might seem janky at first, but 3 colorless and 2 life is pretty aggressively costed for the ability to clone any artifact or creature on the battlefield. It solves a lot of problems since it doesn't target. Iona? Emrakul? Progenitus? Legend rule them. Sphinx of the Steel Wind? Get your own and take the offensive, forcing your opponent to trade. Duplicates your own Goyfs or Knights, or matches your opponents' fatties (Goyf, Knight, Terravore, Tombstalker, etc.).
Duplicating a powerful artifact like Umezawa's Jitte can probably prove useful too. Three colorless mana isn't too hard for Zoo to reach, and because it's really a 4-cc spell, it evades Counterbalance quite nicely.
There are three main problems with it though:
1) Vulnerability to artifact hate
2) 2 life loss, unless you're playing with Noble Hierarch and have extra mana
3) It's a dead card in topdeck mode if both boards are cleared
I'm not convinced it will make the cut, but it has some potential!
Pff
Has anyone seen (obv) Surgical Extraction?
-It's now a universal sideboard card
-Certain strategies can be kept honest, namely graveyard engine decks. more than just dredge
-It's free. :)
-It costs 2 life :|
That's a solid card to watch coming out of the set. It won't be money rare status, but it's going to do a lot for decks in a lot of constructed formats.
Sorry to double post, just caught this.
If you would Legend Rule a Progenitus, why not a Jitte?
Because I'm a sneaky cheater who hopes my opponent doesn't catch me.
That won't work. I guess it's Sword of Fire and Ice or something then.
It seems most of the powerful artifacts in Legacy are either artifact creatures, symmetrical cards (Chalice, Trinisphere, Smokestack, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.), or otherwise cheap cards that you wouldn't try to clone anyway (Lion's Eye Diamond, Aether Vial, and especially Sensei's Divining Top).
I do like the anti-Legend tech though, anda 3(2 life) is definitely affordable for Zoo when considering it's probably a lose-to card they're trading for.
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