[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Well with Lodestone Golem I think you need to drop Revoker or Equipment to maintain a decent red card count to support Chrome Mox.

[GGoober]

I'll chime in with a few notes about Lodestone Golem in Stompy decks since I've been playing with him.

Lodestone Golem is still a fundamentally weak card in Legacy (and yes the 3 toughness is a huge factor to its weakness, not just to bolt, but to many creatures out there with 3 power). Once your opponent powers out a creature with 3 power, Lodestone just sits there until you do something about that creature.

Lodestone Golem needs to be played turn 1-2 to have significant impact on games in Legacy. Turn 3 Golem gives you very little value, and turn 4 Golem is terrible (note that by turn 3, your opponents would have played their most important spells, or they would have had creatures with 3 power or greater out).

Lodestone Golem's effect is symmetrical, so it will affect your own deck as well, unless you tweak the list to avoid the drawback to yourself.

Lodestone Golem is never a hard-lock, therefore opponents can get out of his sphere effect pretty easily by simply making a landdrop. To fully utilize Golem and increase his power, you have to pair him up with more sphere effects, or simply with Wastelands. Dragonstompy at this point cannot really support Wastelands, although I feel that the deck could really use some (to maintain the Trinisphere lock instead of letting the lock just sitting there to be removed when opponents hit 3 lands).

In a deck like Dstompy, Golem's full power cannot be abused:
1. It's nice that Dstompy can power out potentially a turn 1-2 Lodestone Golem but Dstompy cannot maintain Golem's sphere lock without Wasteland.
2. Dstompy needs to maintain high red count for chrome mox, which is inherently disynergistic to Golem's sphere effect, i.e. you're still fairly symmetrical under Golem.

[tesla]

i see only one negative on golem. he isn´t red. with him, i have only 20 red cards MD, wich is sometimes problem (due to mox). but it is a minor threat.

[ThoSha]

Oh please.. Dont tell me that Trinisphere is better than Lodestone Golem because it fits in the deck better.
Trinisphere fucks up laying a chrome mox, it fucks up playing a Revoker when moon gets handled and they tap your city with rishadan port and smash your face with damn vial(happened to me here and then), it fucks up playing jitte+equip on same turn often and it has no other qualities than disable combodecks and having a good first/second turn. Topdecked Trinisphere on turn 5-10.. heck.. even on turn 3 is hella bad. People who want to play Sphere because its an awesome first turn play, have to agree the same on lodestone golem. And for disabling ourself.. who really is scared of that? Just put that sword on him and swing. if our opponent cant handle him he will die anyway. So its not a problem if the dragon is stuck on your hand, he just turns into Plan B. And Necro, if you really have experience with playing DS i really dont get why you would play even crap like Jaya Ballard over Lodestone Golem, since we aren't a painter deck.. I agree on your opinion that he is bad as replacement for a red creature in combination with Trinisphere, but noone tried this deck without Spheres yet, which I did.

[GGoober]

lol

[NecroYawgmoth]

And Necro, if you really have experience with playing DS i really dont get why you would play even crap like Jaya Ballard over Lodestone Golem, since we aren't a painter deck.. I agree on your opinion that he is bad as replacement for a red creature in combination with Trinisphere, but noone tried this deck without Spheres yet, which I did.

well...

I played this deck withous Spheres
I played this deck without Hellbent-Critters
I played this deck with Mana-Denial attempts
I played the deck with and without Song & Slogger

Actually I am playing this deck, since it was there, and tested tons of stuff...

...but what do I know?

Btw, Did you know that Jaya can do more than just "blow up U permanents"? Jaya isn't as bad as you make her, the only bad thing about her is the RR in the casting cost, instead of R [she would be much better if she would cost 2R, yes]... and Jaya was just in my deck to test out replacements for sloggers.

And unlike Golem, you can imprint Jaya in a Mox...

People who want to play Sphere because its an awesome first turn play, have to agree the same on lodestone golem.

this is 3 mana VS 4 mana first turn... oh well...

[GoboLord]

And Necro, if you really have experience with playing DS i really dont get why you would play even crap like Jaya Ballard over Lodestone Golem, since we aren't a painter deck.

Oversimplification FAIL!

...and you don't like Stingscourger in SB because DS isn't a Goblin-deck, right?
You should try Jaya out yourself (or rely on people who did so) if you want to have an accurate ovall-picture. Discussing and oversimplifying things won't bring you anywhere.

[GGoober]

And I have a Metalworker as my avatar and I am posting in the Dragonstompy thread, therefore we need to play Metalworker in Dragonstompy!!

Jokes aside, I've posted earlier why Lodestone Golem isn't suited for Dragonstompy:
1) Cannot maintain the small lock
2) 5/3 for 4cmc is not worthwhile in a deck that cannot maintain spherelocks, yet alone having more issues with Chrome Mox and not benefiting asymmetrically from Lodestone Golem (i.e. you have as much artifacts in this deck as non-artifacts, and that 1 mana that you can't pay because of Lodestone Golems WILL affect games)

[Shawon]

Jokes aside, I've posted earlier why Lodestone Golem isn't suited for Dragonstompy:
1) Cannot maintain the small lock
2) 5/3 for 4cmc is not worthwhile in a deck that cannot maintain spherelocks, yet alone having more issues with Chrome Mox and not benefiting asymmetrically from Lodestone Golem (i.e. you have as much artifacts in this deck as non-artifacts, and that 1 mana that you can't pay because of Lodestone Golems WILL affect games)

Co-sign. I never thought Lodestone was any good in DS. It only helps linearize the deck even more and it doesn't address the problems that cause Dragon Stompy to lose in the first place (e.g. opp having board position).

[ThoSha]

well...

I played this deck withous Spheres
I played this deck without Hellbent-Critters
I played this deck with Mana-Denial attempts
I played the deck with and without Song & Slogger

Actually I am playing this deck, since it was there, and tested tons of stuff...

...but what do I know?

Btw, Did you know that Jaya can do more than just "blow up U permanents"? Jaya isn't as bad as you make her, the only bad thing about her is the RR in the casting cost, instead of R [she would be much better if she would cost 2R, yes]... and Jaya was just in my deck to test out replacements for sloggers.

And unlike Golem, you can imprint Jaya in a Mox...





this is 3 mana VS 4 mana first turn... oh well...

Und Rocky 1-5 waren deine Idee, Neonlicht war deine Idee, Dragon Stompy war deine Idee..
You get the point. ;)

Not like I never tried Jaya ffs.. It even failed against painter itself lol!(but maybe its just me playing bad of course)
The only thing i was mentioning is replacing Golem for Trinispheres, and nothing else. That would save us a slot which would go
to waste for a bad creature(like.. Taurean Mauler, Lord of Wayneskull, Jaya Ballard lol!) letting us play 23-24 good critters.
If nobody likes my idea thats fine with me, just mentioned something new.

As for Metalworker & GoboLord:
Do you know any viable deck where Jaya is MDed except painter? Well I dont.
And since DS isnt stax, a softlock of 1-2 turns paired with a 5/3 is fine with me.

[ScatmanX]

So, what I think everybody is trying to say is:

Lodestone Golem
The Juggernaut 2.0. 5 power for 4 mana, and an effect that slightly screws the opponent. What speaks against him is that he has only 3 Toughness [dies from a Bolt], and that the screw-effect also screws ourselves. Also, the +1 mana effect is mostly irrelevant if we control a Trinisphere. Furthermore, you can not imprint him in a Chrome Mox, which is worse than you think. I have even tested him in a Ponza-oriented version with Avalanche Riders, Goblin Ruinblaster and Stone Rain, and even there, I was not convinced by him. A few people play him, but I wouldn't do so.

Hint: From the opening post. There's some good reading there...

[Gui]

Und Rocky 1-5 waren deine Idee, Neonlicht war deine Idee, Dragon Stompy war deine Idee..
You get the point. ;)

Not like I never tried Jaya ffs.. It even failed against painter itself lol!(but maybe its just me playing bad of course)
The only thing i was mentioning is replacing Golem for Trinispheres, and nothing else. That would save us a slot which would go
to waste for a bad creature(like.. Taurean Mauler, Lord of Wayneskull, Jaya Ballard lol!) letting us play 23-24 good critters.
If nobody likes my idea thats fine with me, just mentioned something new.

As for Metalworker & GoboLord:
Do you know any viable deck where Jaya is MDed except painter? Well I dont.
And since DS isnt stax, a softlock of 1-2 turns paired with a 5/3 is fine with me.

These are pretty bad arguments, I see a lot of Ad Hominem here, and don't really see what you are trying to prove.

If you want to be taken serious, why don't you post your awesome testing results with %s of win instead of attacking people, so that other serious people can replicate it?

[ThoSha]

@Scatman
Seems like you misunderstood me. Im not the first dude which comes up with the great idea of including Lodestone Golem to the Deck,
cutting Slogger or any other Creature for him. As i mentioned above, all i suggested was replacing 3sphere with golem.
You cant pitch Golem to a mox? Well, you cant pitch Sphere in a mox too. I hope everyone gets me now.

Of course it costs 1 mana more than Sphere.. but man, why do i still run seething song?

@Gui
Im gonna post a tournament report on upcoming wednesday, where i can clearly state the pros and cons in MUs according
to this little change. And its not like i am fronting on people, they just joke about my idea without really getting the point, which
is kinda sad.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Und Rocky 1-5 waren deine Idee, Neonlicht war deine Idee, Dragon Stompy war deine Idee..
You get the point. ;)

Not like I never tried Jaya ffs.. It even failed against painter itself lol!(but maybe its just me playing bad of course)
The only thing i was mentioning is replacing Golem for Trinispheres, and nothing else. That would save us a slot which would go
to waste for a bad creature(like.. Taurean Mauler, Lord of Wayneskull, Jaya Ballard lol!) letting us play 23-24 good critters.
If nobody likes my idea thats fine with me, just mentioned something new.

As for Metalworker & GoboLord:
Do you know any viable deck where Jaya is MDed except painter? Well I dont.
And since DS isnt stax, a softlock of 1-2 turns paired with a 5/3 is fine with me.

Well... I'll kinda ignore the fact, that you attacked me here, somehow, but...
Your arguments doesn't make any sense... Mauler / Shatterskull / Jaya are all not optimal, but neither is Lodestome becasue he isn't red...
Your list plays 8 cards with ccc4, 3 with ccc5 and 5 equipments with 18! lands in the main... and you are talking about highering the curve, and making your Dragons and Sloggers cost 5 and 6, this is way worse than Trinisphere making your Moxen cost 3.

Your Jaya-argument is totally nonsense also... It's like saying: " Do you know any viable deck where Lord of Atlantis is maindecked other than Merfolk? Well I don't." What does it say? NOTHING...

Many DS-Players had cut Trinispheres to test it, and anyone who has experience with the deck, will agree with me in the following point:

--->Dragon Stompy is a meta deck... it absolutely NEEDS to be played in the right meta... And everytime you want to remove Trini from the main, it just means that the meta is the wrong decision for DS. Sure Lodestone might help you a bit more than Trini in that meta... but you can't take good results with DS in a meta where Trini would be bad. <---


Please stop being so ignorant and post some constructive stuff here...

[ThoSha]

First of all, sorry if i offended you in any way, i really didn't mean too.
And thanks for being the first after Forlorn Egoist being constructive on my posts now.

I see your point about being Golem subpar to this deck because he isn't red, like i see your point in Jaya Ballard
being good from time to time(metachoice.. i face more bant/painters than merfolk in my environment).
Its true that DS is a metadeck at all, but assuming that you are taking this deck to a larger tourney, you
want to be an allrounder still(thats my thought at least). I agree on golem being not the perfect creature for this
deck, but I find it more viable than other creatures suggested in this thread.
I disagree on that intense mana curve you are talking about tough. Testing has proven that with this list
i can go 2 ways of winning the game. The first way would be going the golem route, which sets golem T1 or T2(hopefully with chalice1)on the field
and kills the enemy with Equipment if he cant handle him. Now that isnt always the case since he might get forced, sworded or burned.
If he gets handled, i immediately go for hellbent/slogger still trying for beatdown. If that doesnt work i'll probably lose.
The 2nd way would be not having the golem on my opening hand, which makes me go for hellbent asap, with laying golem topdecked later. With this theory i just wanted to discuss about if it is good in modern legacy to play DS like that(with experienced player like you, obviously), or if its not, based on solid arguments. Thats it. :)

[NecroYawgmoth]

well... I cant say it's to intense, because I don't play your list =P

my problem was the thing, that Song & Slogger make the deck inconstant, and sometimes you lose the game, when you topdeck a Slogger and can't maintain Hellbent [that happened to me with 18 Lands, 4 Moxen, 4SSG, and I am sure many others have the same problem.]

The same problem I see with Golems & Sloggers. Golems make topdecked Sloggers even worse. I know that Slogger is good against all Tribal not called Merfolk, and he is a house against many things, but my main objective is to getting that deck constant, because you'll lose many games due to inconstance, and I think Slogger needs to go with that.

I see your point in cutting Trini for Golems, like stated, but I don't hink it will help DS that much =(.

I really LIKE to play 4 Golems in DS, alongside with Trini, Chalice & Revoker, because I really really LIKE Lodestone. But then, we are playing like 20 artifacts. And... thats not good with Chrome Mox, and more problems are incoming =(

[ThoSha]

Yes, Slogger IS clumsy, i agree on that big time. I wanted to replace him myself and i think Golem makes him even worse, yes.
But what would be an alternative in the list i am playing? Im not going back for Spheres, for that i am sure.
I also think his best argument of seeing play is being a burnstick. It might be good to replace him with Char in a list running Golem,
but i am not sure about the lifeloss. Just oriented this thought on fairy stompy using psionic blast as a direct burn spell.
What do you say about that?

Oh and just an addional thing:
I play 25 red cards main, since i am NOT running Revoker in my Mainboard, leaving me on 17 artifacts, 4 being Mox.
I really dont see any problem here ;)
Seething Song is good with Golem/Equip, so why cut it?

Edit:
Solfatara is 2R and has good synergy with Golem. Not a removal, but an early timewalk, providing us even more mana-advantage.
It might be a bad topdeck, but it easily provides hellbent at least. I think it needs to be tested :)

[NecroYawgmoth]

I don't know... I am often thinking that one big weakness of DS is missing removal...

It's sad, that the best Burnspell for 2R [in the Burncolor] is Char =(

[Clark Kant]

Covetous Dragon is a fine replacement for Slogger. Slogger has no evasion and needs double red to cast. And how good Lodestone Golem is tied to how much equipment you opt to play maindeck. Early Golem + Equipment is a brutal combo that wins many games. Without equipment Golem is sometimes great but not always.

The more low power utility guys DS plays (Revoker, Magus, Simian, Golem) the stronger equipment becomes. And the more equipment the deck plays, the better it can support a playset of Covetous Dragon.

Still legacy doesn't play many creatures with 3 power. Other than Zoo, they all either play 1 or 2 power or 5+ power guys. And not many decks play Lightning Bolt either, just Zoo really.

Also, I was wrong about Seething Song, it's too strong not to play, especially with equipment, the acceleration I am unhappy with is Simian Spirit Guide.

And one last thought I had, what if we go balls to the walls with utility artifact creatures, equipment, chalice, trini etc enough to support replacing Chrome Mox with Mox Opal. We still play Moons, Covetous Dragon and not much other red stuff. Stuff like Metalworker, Monolith, Wurmcoil Engine and that protection from all colors guy could work.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well, the problem with Mox Opal is, that we lose the 1st turn acceleration as we can't play 2 other Artifacts first Turn. For Mox Diamond we don't play enough lands =(

Also if we play with all the Utility, Covetous, Equipments, Seethings, etc. there is no more room for Gathan & RPD.