[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[Arsenal]

Team America already is an iffy-bad matchup for ANT, so the inclusion of an annoying card in an already-annoying deck doesn't speak to the power of MM, imo. In other words, replace MM with Pierce in that decklist and I'd wager that ANT still has a tough time... btw, I completely disagree with the lack of Hymns in your TA build.

[lorddotm]

Team America already is an iffy-bad matchup for ANT, so the inclusion of an annoying card in an already-annoying deck doesn't speak to the power of MM, imo. In other words, replace MM with Pierce in that decklist and I'd wager that ANT still has a tough time... btw, I completely disagree with the lack of Hymns in your TA build.

He's from Europe, they are weird deck builders. No offense. That being said, I pretty much stole one of his lists and tuned it a little bit.

I have been tuning his build of TNT, and I can say that it is a TON better than the Grim Tutor version.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Swamp

SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Deathmark
1 Meltdown
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Wipe Away
2 Chain of Vapour
4 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

When MM drops, I will probably change out the Chains for Echoing Truths, and maybe change the Deathmarks for something else, but I don't know what yet, maybe something along the lines of Cannibalize, Disorder, or Vicious Hunger, but those are probably all too cute, and Pyroclasm is probably just better.

These are the relevant Doomsday piles, there are a few more involving Burning Wish in hand, but those are very corner case, keep in mind that these all require BBB+1R on top of the specific ones.

Non Pass the Turn Piles:

Hand Requirements: BS +2
Mana required: UU
Storm Count: 7
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + Ponder +ToA

Note 1: if the Ponder in the pile (i.e. the fourth card) is replaced with IGG, you have the same requirements for 10 Storm Count.
Note 2: if in addition to the IGG change, you change the ToA for a Burning Wish (--> ToA) you have the same requirements for 11 Storm Count.

Hand Requirements: BS + 2 + any cantrip
Mana required: U
Storm Count: 8
DD Pile: LP + BS + 2x LED + ToA

Note 1: if the BS in the pile (i.e. the fourth card) is replaced with IGG, you have the same requirements for 11 Storm Count.
Note 2: if in addition to the IGG change, you change the ToA for a Burning Wish (--> ToA) you have the same requirements for 12 Storm Count.

Pass the Turn Piles:


Hand Requirements: IT + 1
Mana required: 1UB
Storm Count: 10
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + IGG +ToA

Note: if the extra card in your hand is PN (i.e. IT + PN) you have the same pile for Storm Count 10 but for only UU as mana requirement.

Hand Requirements: PN + 1
Mana required: UU
Storm Count: 9
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + IGG +ToA

Note 1: if the extra card you have in hand is PN (i.e. PN + PN) you have exactly the same pile but for Storm Count of 10.
Note 2: if you replace the ToA for a BW (--> ToA). You have the same pile but for Storm Count of 10. Note that with a hand requirement of PN + PN in this case you'll have a Storm Count of 12.

This is an example of how you can make some modifications in the piles by exchangeing the order of some cards.

Modification of the PN + PN pile (interesting to keep in mind):

Hand Requirements: PN + ToA
Mana required: UU
Storm Count: 10
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + IGG + PN

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. maybe it's not needed, but here is a Legend:

BS = Brainstorm
PN = Ponder (wherever it says Ponder it can be replaced by Preordain)
BW = Burning Wish
IT = Infernal Tutor
LED = Lion's Eye Diamond
LP = Lotus Petal
IGG = Ill-Gotten Gains
ToA = Tendrils of Agony

The biggest issue is against Merfolk, losing access to an "I win" in the form of Xantid Swarm is kind of a beating.

[egosum]

@Arsenal: TA can be annoying but for sure not as annoying as CB-Top can be, and this is what I meant, with MM this things will change a little, at least is what first drafts of that list told me so. According to HtT, I'm afraid this is not the correct thread to discuss about it but if you want I'll be glad to give me my opinion on that in the Ta Thread or even in a p.m. But the idea is that I don' t think it belongs to TA philosophy, i.e. gameplan.

@Lorddotm: of course no offense, this is just the same that most Europeans think about American's decklists. I'm sure is because we play in a different metagame.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Tchakanavaka]

I`ve playing ANT and TES for a long time from now, while I think they both are well positioned in the meta, I think they both has they weeknesses. Like when you are unable to find bussiness with ANT, or the frequent times you have to mulligan with TES.Also the times you are in top deck mode and you draw an Tendrils or a Chrome Mox. So I came up with the following list,


// Lands
1 [A] Badlands
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Island

// Spells
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [M11] Duress
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M11] Preordain
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

Few things to note are that you now need 2 red manas to make an IGG Loop, and if you have mana in your pool, this deck has the best Ad Nauseam, as the deck curves on 2cmc. One problem I`ve noticed is that sometimes if I had 1 Infernal Tutor on the wishboard on game 1,I could make 16-18 goblins or even an IGG Loop, instead of just 12-14 goblins. The singleton Doomsday on the SB might seen random, but it is fetched with Burning Wish, so its never maindecked. So tell me what you guys think about this build,

Tchakanavaka

[lorddotm]

@Lorddotm: of course no offense, this is just the same that most Europeans think about American's decklists. I'm sure is because we play in a different metagame.

Don't even get me started on European Vintage lists. Repeal is not an auto 3 of in everything that can cast it. ;)

[egosum]

This is quite offtopci, but I promise this as my last post (about this)...

Don't tell me I'm one of those strange European playing Non-repeal Gush deck :-P

Greetngs,

Iñaki.-

[egosum]

I`ve playing ANT and TES for a long time from now, while I think they both are well positioned in the meta, I think they both has they weeknesses. Like when you are unable to find bussiness with ANT, or the frequent times you have to mulligan with TES.Also the times you are in top deck mode and you draw an Tendrils or a Chrome Mox. So I came up with the following list,


// Lands
1 [A] Badlands
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Island

// Spells
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [M11] Duress
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M11] Preordain
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

Few things to note are that you now need 2 red manas to make an IGG Loop, and if you have mana in your pool, this deck has the best Ad Nauseam, as the deck curves on 2cmc. One problem I`ve noticed is that sometimes if I had 1 Infernal Tutor on the wishboard on game 1,I could make 16-18 goblins or even an IGG Loop, instead of just 12-14 goblins. The singleton Doomsday on the SB might seen random, but it is fetched with Burning Wish, so its never maindecked. So tell me what you guys think about this build,

Tchakanavaka

Your deck seems like lots of ANT list that only work wonders on paper.

Let me explain,

The idea of optimizing the maindeck is OK, but when playing you'll face lots of differents situations where a single ToA in main deck will win you the game (I'm talking because I ' ve also tried this kind of lists).

I also think that the correct ANT list, IMO, is packing 2 Ad Nauseam and 1 ToA main deck, with a couple of Chrome Moxen, and 3 Burning Wish. I say this after having tested Ari's build, Ari's with Burning and regular 2x Ad Nauseam+ Moxen builds. Most of them have weakneses, beig the one for the Non-Moen, single Ad Nauseam, not finding the bussiness on time some times even with Burnings and/or Grims. The problem of the Regular 2x ADN + 4x Infernal + Moxen is being inconsistant. But I agree that with BW you can let the IGG as a side Target (adding it to main if needed). Also I think that having an infernal in the side is important, but it may work with 4 main deck.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Tchakanavaka]

@egosum: Thanks for the criticism, while I agree that in game one if you have only BW in hands you will be unable to tutor chain, making you go for the goblins route, which are not garanteed to get there, which makes difference in certains matchups. But in game two with 1 Infernal Tutor in the wishboard its the same game play as ANT, with advantage of not have the displeasure to topdeck an ToA, and clean you AdN. I honestly dont see an game where ToA on the MD was that needed.


-Tchakanavaka

[mort-]

I really don't like your manabase, but maybe that's just me having a weird fetish for basiclands ;) I always think that the great number of basics is one of ANTs strongest points in a Meta polluted with Wasteland fetching Knights.
I also agree with egosum that you should play one Tendrils main. There are enough situations where you are waiting for business with a dead Tendrils in your hand that suddenly turns live against an opponent with Force and Snare in their hand.
For the Burning Wishes.. I think everyone should pack them like they want. I've been testing with 4 Infernals + 2 Burning Wishes main (mostly against folk) and have been doing great, so naturally, I would say 2 is the right choice for finding the kill in the right moment. But I guess if 3 or 4 suits one more, go for it.
And one last point: don't play Warrens. So many decks are packing Deed, EE, E. Truth or even Engineered Plague atm that the tokens won't get there in time (also I do have to say that I'm happy about every Plague being boarded against me :D).

[Tchakanavaka]

@mort-: EtW is a metacall, as here in Brazil 80/100 decks are aggro, with lots of merfolks, where EtW shines.

[amonchakai]

@lorddotm:
the Deathmark in SB would be a massacre better?(canonist/revoker/meddling mage more than one alone?or pyroclams?

[Koby]

@lorddotm:
the Deathmark in SB would be a massacre better?(canonist/revoker/meddling mage more than one alone?or pyroclams?

Does not answer Gaddock Teeg. Pyroclasm seems like a better approach.

[lorddotm]

Does not answer Gaddock Teeg. Pyroclasm seems like a better approach.

Pyroclasm is probably the best, but gaining two life, thats awesome.

[amonchakai]

hi
with the new collection can be possible to do an aggro SB?
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian negator
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Other aggro creature?

[practical joke]

hi
with the new collection can be possible to do an aggro SB?
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian negator
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Other aggro creature?

to be honest...

NOT AN OPTION!

I alread cried when Matt Nass showed his sideboard with 4 confidant and 3 jace 2.0

So far there isn't a match-up that I cannot win with my current sideboard and skills. (some matches are really pushing both of it, but it's not impossible)

DTT remains the toughest match-up for me, TA only comes second (there are some dead decks, but what you don't see, you don't care about)

[Fossil4182]

Has anyone had problems with the Dredge match up? I have faced this deck a number of times over the past several weeks and find the match up difficult. My match count has been 1-4 against the deck which seems abysmal. I've lost two games due to pilot error and the others due to turn two kills and/or a turn two Iona followed by a turn three kill. I've tried various strategies from adding an additional Ad Nauseum (one main and one in the sideboard), adding various forms of sideboard hate etc. Is the strat to load up on graveyard hate and ride a slow route to victory, speed up the deck and go for a turn one or two kill? My list is similar to Ari's with the exception of minus on Preordain and plus one Echoing Truth in the main deck (DC SCGK Event). The sideboard has been in flux depending on what the local metagame is.

My initial thought is to up the number of hate cards in the board to five and bring in an additional Ad Nauseum. Any thoughts or suggestions on approaching this matchup would be greatly appreciated.

[JamieW89]

Has anyone had problems with the Dredge match up? I have faced this deck a number of times over the past several weeks and find the match up difficult. My match count has been 1-4 against the deck which seems abysmal. I've lost two games due to pilot error and the others due to turn two kills and/or a turn two Iona followed by a turn three kill. I've tried various strategies from adding an additional Ad Nauseum (one main and one in the sideboard), adding various forms of sideboard hate etc. Is the strat to load up on graveyard hate and ride a slow route to victory, speed up the deck and go for a turn one or two kill? My list is similar to Ari's with the exception of minus on Preordain and plus one Echoing Truth in the main deck (DC SCGK Event). The sideboard has been in flux depending on what the local metagame is.

My initial thought is to up the number of hate cards in the board to five and bring in an additional Ad Nauseum. Any thoughts or suggestions on approaching this matchup would be greatly appreciated.

I think I beat dredge 80% or so. Actually beat it twice in the premier event on MODO just now (eventually lost semi's to Bant after failing on an AdN from 18 with BBB floating in g3).
Be sure to hide infernal on top with cantrips if possible to protect against Cabal Therapy and bring in Bounce and Slaughter Pacts if you have those (I run 4 Chains irl and 3 Chain/1-2 Pacts on MODO) and board in Chants/Silences if you have white in your board. Chantwalking them is pretty good.
You could run Leylines side or something, but I doubt it's worth it. We need our side to fight hate against us (bounce,swarms etc.) and countertop (and if needed, a slot or 2 for stax).

[Fossil4182]

I think I beat dredge 80% or so. Actually beat it twice in the premier event on MODO just now (eventually lost semi's to Bant after failing on an AdN from 18 with BBB floating in g3).
Be sure to hide infernal on top with cantrips if possible to protect against Cabal Therapy and bring in Bounce and Slaughter Pacts if you have those (I run 4 Chains irl and 3 Chain/1-2 Pacts on MODO) and board in Chants/Silences if you have white in your board. Chantwalking them is pretty good.
You could run Leylines side or something, but I doubt it's worth it. We need our side to fight hate against us (bounce,swarms etc.) and countertop (and if needed, a slot or 2 for stax).

I've been playing playing with one Slaughter Pact in my board, but have opted to keep in there. Mostly because Iona on Black means I have to dig to find the bounce (or already have it) or I just loose. Chant walking does seem pretty good. I'm running Echoing Truth which can be really good if I time it right and can work better than Chanting them in some ways.

Are the scenarios I'm describing the exception to the rule? Dredge can have some explosive draws, but are turn two Iona or two turn kill off Flame-Kin Zealot common for Dredge? I feel like that's pretty fast, even for Dredge. I'll admit that I don't have a lot of experience with Dredge so my analysis and perception of the deck's consistency & clock are only based off what I've played against.

Congrats on the Semi finish.

[JamieW89]

I've been playing playing with one Slaughter Pact in my board, but have opted to keep in there. Mostly because Iona on Black means I have to dig to find the bounce (or already have it) or I just loose. Chant walking does seem pretty good. I'm running Echoing Truth which can be really good if I time it right and can work better than Chanting them in some ways.

Are the scenarios I'm describing the exception to the rule? Dredge can have some explosive draws, but are turn two Iona or two turn kill off Flame-Kin Zealot common for Dredge? I feel like that's pretty fast, even for Dredge. I'll admit that I don't have a lot of experience with Dredge so my analysis and perception of the deck's consistency & clock are only based off what I've played against.

Congrats on the Semi finish.

Thanks. Turn-2 kills seem quite rare from the LEDless version (which is what I've been playing against as LED is about $120 online now), never had it against me. Turn-2 Iona is possible, but I feel they often don't get it until turn-3. Maybe I've just been lucky though (or when they did have it I had the chants to stop them from it).

(Currently 3-0 in another daily; 1x 4-0 and 3x 3-1 so far this week, running good lol)

[rnightingale]

I have a question kind sirs, against what deck should i switch to Doomsday Plan ?

i noticed that most sideboards have two different plans: 1.) Doomsday and 2.) Xantid Swarm..

please enlighten me. Thanks