All B/R update speculation.

[Sims]

I agree, and it never really was my argument. I was simply saying that Bargain was better than Necro, which was the original post I was responding to.

[menace13]

Necro was unrestricted for Classic on Modo while back, the card pool at the time was deep enough to build Zoo,Goblins,Cbalance decks, Bant, Merfolk, Team America, Combo Elves(w Clamp and Crafts), Landstills, Rock, Stiflenought, Ad Naus/TES, Dredge if i missed a few forgive me.

Now that was a healthy Classic meta, Combo Elves was great, Zoo performed well and other decks got to play. With Necro the format was all of 3 decks; Necro,Merfolk and Burn after re-restriction format reverted back to Legacy like meta as it was before. Note this was around 2 years ago and Necro also had Demonic Consultation unrestricted(which would show up in every deck; merfolk,Team America,Cbalance,Landstill).

Today Classic is dominated by Bazzars,YWill,Tinker,Oath,Shops,Drains,Gush,Time Vault. Bargain is currently Unrestricted in Classic as is Desire. Making those 2 work isn't easy and Necro is simply faster.. like turn 1-2 fast. Not much any other deck is going to do when you turn 1-2 windmill slam a necro draw 12, ignore their play or FoW/Daze it, untap with your crafted hand and either win or set up a win next turn. Mini Tendrils is a fine play with 3x in the deck finding one in your top 20 cards is simple.

[rufus]

Recruiter, Food Chain... and there goes the format

These days, I'd think the primary concern was:
Goblin Recruiter->...-> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker,Lightning Crafter,Skirk Prospector

Yawgmoth's Bargain seems like it is too strong because it's not dependent on having lands in play the way that Time Spiral is. It seems like it could work very well in a Belcher style turn 1 combo deck. From a metagame perspective, WotC also seems to be more for unbanning combo/control cards than straight up combo cards. I'd be looking at other stuff to get unbanned first.

[Uly Van Hammer]

I think top should get the axe just because of time issues. It takes way to long to play a game against counter-top. I have never had a "natural" draw in legacy, but ive come very close (turns) against counter-top. If you look around a tournament when time get's called, it's only the matches with top that are still playing.

[Lemnear]

wow! Bargain and Desire are unrestricted in classic and don't cause havok? The Dark Ritual archetype really has trouble...

[wcm8]

I think top should get the axe just because of time issues. It takes way to long to play a game against counter-top. I have never had a "natural" draw in legacy, but ive come very close (turns) against counter-top. If you look around a tournament when time get's called, it's only the matches with top that are still playing.

I agree completely. It's not that the card is too powerful, it's just incredibly time consuming. And I really don't think you need Ctop to be in the format for combo decks to be kept in check, plenty of decks without either of those cards have positive combo matchups.

[menace13]

wow! Bargain and Desire are unrestricted in classic and don't cause havok? The Dark Ritual archetype really has trouble...

Yeah, Most of the storm decks just seek to abuse LEDs(plural) and YWill. Mystical Tutor is also still unrestricted but is not played as much as LEDs/Infernals.

[Lemnear]

wtf? Mystical and LED's too? sounds like combo heaven.... wish this could be said about paper vintage -_-

A year of MUD dominance is more than enough ... Dark Ritual needs some love from Innistrad

[Koby]

Ya combo would be tits........

if Workshop decks weren't already overpowered. Without Moxen - Combo isn't fast enough to beat 13 spheres.dec

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Right, I'm going to go back to Classical's being irrelevant then. People don't have Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy and apparently they don't even play Bargain.

[(nameless one)]

Ya combo would be tits........

if Workshop decks weren't already overpowered. Without Moxen - Combo isn't fast enough to beat 13 spheres.dec

Hey rukcus,

I'm curious. How does a workshop deck look like in Classic (for some reason, I cannot access Classic Quarter)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, do people imagine Vial and Food Chain are going in the same Goblins list with Recruiter unbanned, and if so, what does the rest of the deck look like? I mean the old FCG ran ESGs and Ancient Tomb, but that was before Vial.

[kiblast]

First of, I know Vintage is much different than Legacy. My point was, Storm with Bargain is much closer than Vintage storm. Grip matters much less when your going off before theres a big chance of it being active. It still is a concern. You also realize Necro is open to Grip too, right? This is the point I was making. While you get a fresh grip off Necro when its comes down turn 1 or turn 2, it gets Gripped and you're in the same place. Necro can't go off the same turn you play it.

You also mention the average life loss, and this is a valid point, however, there are fluctuation with AdN where as this isn't the case with Bargain. I phrased that poorly. I meant that Bargain is always 1-1 where as there is the previously mentioned fluctuation with AdN. As sims said, +1 mana isn't that important, although it would cause Storm decks to be built differently. Are you conceding my other points, because you failed to address them? Instead you decided to fall back upon sarcasm. (I just reread my above post, and didn't mean to come off condescendingly if I did)

I decided to write a sarcastic post, because I was in a hurry and didn't want to stay 15 minutes in front of my pc to write and organize all my thoughts. However:

- Necro is open to Grip as Bargain is. But I think that going Ritual-> Necro, and then Grip, wasted 2 of your resources. While Petal,Ritual, Cabal (with thresh)into Bargain (and this is the fastest way to cheat Bargain into play, or Rit/Rit/Rit if you prefer, or unless you decide to Snt it into play, which is very unlikely), Grip on Bargain actually is like opponent doing double Tourach on you with split second at instant speed! Hooray!
-1 Mana is important. Again, do your math and check how much acceleration is needed to fuel a Bargain and how much for a Necro. Any Ant with good hands(I'm not speaking about God hands) can easily drop Necro turn 1-2. While I can't see any way to drop Bargain before turn 3, unless you are really good at drawing God hands.
- Necro turn 1/2 mans that opponent in most cases will not have 3 mana needed to cast Grip, or to activate Pridemage, while turn 3+ will probably have them. The only problem here is the untap you are giving them, but again, this is not *so* bad because even if they destroy your Necro, they will have 2x1'd you, but if they Grip your Bargain, they will at least 4x1 you.
- The problem of the fluctuation of ANT is comparable to the fact of paying 15 lifes off Bargain and being unable to find something to win. Remember that 15/60 is 1/4 of your deck, and there is some possibility that you don't win. Same of a 15 life ( normally 15-20cards) draw off AdN.

(comparing Bargain to Necro in an ANT-like environment is like comparing Leatherback Baloth to Tarmogoyf in Zoo.)

[conboy31]

I decided to write a sarcastic post, because I was in a hurry and didn't want to stay 15 minutes in front of my pc to write and organize all my thoughts. However:

- Necro is open to Grip as Bargain is. But I think that going Ritual-> Necro, and then Grip, wasted 2 of your resources. While Petal,Ritual, Cabal (with thresh)into Bargain (and this is the fastest way to cheat Bargain into play, or Rit/Rit/Rit if you prefer, or unless you decide to Snt it into play, which is very unlikely), Grip on Bargain actually is like opponent doing double Tourach on you with split second at instant speed! Hooray!
-1 Mana is important. Again, do your math and check how much acceleration is needed to fuel a Bargain and how much for a Necro. Any Ant with good hands(I'm not speaking about God hands) can easily drop Necro turn 1-2. While I can't see any way to drop Bargain before turn 3, unless you are really good at drawing God hands.
- Necro turn 1/2 mans that opponent in most cases will not have 3 mana needed to cast Grip, or to activate Pridemage, while turn 3+ will probably have them. The only problem here is the untap you are giving them, but again, this is not *so* bad because even if they destroy your Necro, they will have 2x1'd you, but if they Grip your Bargain, they will at least 4x1 you.
- The problem of the fluctuation of ANT is comparable to the fact of paying 15 lifes off Bargain and being unable to find something to win. Remember that 15/60 is 1/4 of your deck, and there is some possibility that you don't win. Same of a 15 life ( normally 20cards) draw off AdN.

(comparing Bargain to Necro in an ANT-like environment is like comparing Leatherback Baloth to Tarmogoyf in Zoo.)

I know the first thing I would do after resolving a Bargain against 3 mana (including a green) post sideboard is pass priority. I'd pass priority so fast after resolving a Bargain. Just bam. Passsed.

[Rune]

I know the first thing I would do after resolving a Bargain against 3 mana (including a green) post sideboard is pass priority. I'd pass priority so fast after resolving a Bargain. Just bam. Passsed.

Man, don't waste your time trying to point this out, I already tried on the last page and it doesn't seem to have worked.

[Jander78]

-1 Mana is important. Again, do your math and check how much acceleration is needed to fuel a Bargain and how much for a Necro.

Turn 1: Cabal Therapy
Turn 2: Dark Ritual, Academy Rector, flashback Cabal Therapy, Yawgmoth's Bargain

There's other ways to cheat it into play as well, like Show and Tell.

Worldgorger Dragon is fine to take off the list. Without Bazaar, the engine is kind of shot and if you're going to play Buried Alive, you can just Reanimate a Necrotic Ooze to win now and not be vulnerable to Swords, Grip, any bounce, etc.

[Koby]

Hey rukcus,

I'm curious. How does a workshop deck look like in Classic (for some reason, I cannot access Classic Quarter)

Much like they do in Vintage. Only difference is -5 Moxen +5 anything else.

The dominant Shop builds are aggro with Metalworker and lack Smokestack. Steel Hellkite is an incredibly fast beater. The point is that, no matter how broken a combo deck looks on paper, it still have to beat a turn 1 resistor, which many cannot with Moxen.

[kiblast]

Turn 1: Cabal Therapy
Turn 2: Dark Ritual, Academy Rector, flashback Cabal Therapy, Yawgmoth's Bargain

I thought I said barring God hands. I guess an hand composed of: Land, Cabal Therapy, Ritual, Rector is not a God hand in your opinion.At this point,if I'd be forced to use Rector to play Bargain, I'd rather SnT it into play.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I thought I said barring God hands. I guess an hand composed of: Land, Cabal Therapy, Ritual, Rector is not a God hand in your opinion.At this point, I'd rather SnT it into play.

Aren't you the guy that thinks Legacy has lots of ways of getting a turn 1 Necro?

[Jander78]

I thought I said barring God hands. I guess an hand composed of: Land, Cabal Therapy, Ritual, Rector is not a God hand in your opinion.

I wouldn't consider that a god hand as I've seen it happen enough times. It can happen with Ancent Tomb or City of Traitors and a Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox as well, or in conjuction with Innocent Blood in lieu of Cabal Therapy. Regardless, I was just illustrating a point, all you need is an Academy Rector and a way to kill it..