Originally Posted by bokwinkle
Yeah, sharing prizes with opponents isn't good if they ask for it or if you offer it prior to or during the match, then it's bribery or collusion...bad stuff. My opponent scooped to me in Round 6 simply because we had fun playing and he realized i wasn't a comple D-bag and he wanted to give me a chance. Pretty nice of him considering it was the first time he'd ever played against me or even met me and lived over 2 hours away so he had no reason to care about me holding a grudge for dream-crushing me. I give this guy a lot of credit, because at no time did i even ask if he'd scoop to me, and at no time did I mention that he didn't stand a chance of getting in. I basically decided it was a conversation I didn't want to have since the guy i played in round 5 asked me at least twice if I'd scoop since he'd have a better chance of getting in and he kind of pissed me off, noone wants to be reminded that their chances of winning suck. I feel like scooping someone into Top 8 is a pretty classy move, but asking to be scooped in is pretty shady.
This was just a classy move by a classy player who was also very good at magic. Even after the match he didn't ask for prizes, I gave him the cards un-solicited, so it's all good.
It is in no way against any rules to give cards to players, it's when they ask for the cards to give you wins that it becomes very bad. Hell, I give cards to players all the time - usually new players with no cards - but if anyone ever accused me of bribery or collusion they would have a hell of fight on their hands.
Post 2468 (page 124)
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Hey, everyone. I've been lurking The Source for a while without a formal account, thinking about making my first Legacy deck. I've been playing Magic for about 6 years, but mostly Standard, EDH, and Limited. After talking with some friends who have experience playing Legacy, I decided to make a Deadguy Ale build:
Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Path to Exile
Enchantments:
2 Bitterblossom
Artifacts:
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:
4 Marsh Flats
7 Plains
1 Scrubland
8 Swamp
One thing you might have noticed is that I don't run Wasteland, and I only have one Scrubland. This is a price issue. My deck could probably uniformly benefit from Wasteland. As far as Scrubland, I've noticed that running mostly basic lands means I can count on having my lands not destroyed most of the time. Of course my average CC is around 1.6, but getting locked out of a color hurts the deck. Because all but one card (Serra) needs more than one colored mana, I can usually do anything I want with one Swamp and one Plains.
I should also say that Bitterblossom has been doing great things for me and should be considered for people who think about Elspeth. CMC 2 makes Confidant happy, and a flyer to hold one of the knives each turn helps a lot. If I'm trying to stabilize, then losing 1 life is a small price to pay for blocking a 4/5 or a 20/20 flying indestructible. Also the synergy with Cabal Therapy is notable as I'd rather give up a token than a Serra Avenger or something.
The combination of Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant made me choose to have all my equipment gain life. Also the protection colors in my toolkit are R/W/B; spot-removal colors. I'm not especially worried about green or blue creatures. Sword of War and Peace has performed well for me because running basic lands means that I often just keep extra lands in my hand for the lifegain. I run 4 PoE because I don't do land-denial anyway, and getting their life to 0 ASAP means Plowshares isn't optimal IMO.
As far as matchups I only have matches that I've played informally with friends, and they seem to be in line with how Deadguy usually fares. Good against Merfolk, bad against Enchantress, etc. Unfortunately there are practically no tournament reports for Deadguy.
I'd really appreciate feedback of any constructive kind. Definitely let me know if anything I said above is plain wrong. Thanks! Also, I've been thinking about Mental Misstep for this deck, as an aside.
I just got 6th last night at SCG Charlotte with a deck very similar to Deadguy but much more white and hatey than discardy. I'll post a tournament report in the report thread later but if you want to see my list you can go to the SCG coverage. There's also a match report where I got curb-stomped by AJ Sacher in the T8.
Edit: Apparently I got 8th due to losing to the champ and my breakers weren't the best.
Last edited by Tim the Enchanter; 05-02-2011 at 02:49 PM.
Ok, so I have some comments here, and if I sound overly critical I definately don't mean to be, but I'm assuming that if you are posting here you are looking for advice, not cofirmation that your list is the bestorz. I want to start by saying that Deadguy is probably the cheapest deck in Legacy even with Wastelands and Scrublands, so pushing it more budget is a tough place to go with it. I'll break down my comments by card type:
Creatures:
Grunt and Avenger both have conditional play issues that you'll have to deal with regularly. CorpT and I beat these 2 to death earlier in the thread and there is a lot of agreement that upside on these creatures is often outweighed by their conditional play. Also, they are both white, in a primarilly black deck with mostly basics. You may be able to overcome some of their issues with vial and other things, but generally they aren't going to Mesh well with the rest of your deck. Grunt is 'OK' in most situations because you do run so much removal and discard...unfortunately swords and therapy don't really help as much as IoK and GftT could, but that's another discussion. If grunt has been a house for you, then I'd suggest him as a 2-of simply because you don't really want him in your opening hand. Serra Avenger I think is a direct swap for Vampire Nighthawk - which I know doesn't play well with Jitte, but he's huge against so many matchups, and he plays VERY well with Stoneforge Mystic.
Mother of Runes - my hate of this card is well documented. Personally I'd replace it with Tidehollow sculler (as a 3-of), this is especially valid since you run therapy in such high quantities, since getting more peeks at your opponent's hand will always be good. It also increases your control count, which will be good for you too I think. Also, MoM doesn't go well with SoWaP and SoLaS.
Stoneforge Mystic. In my playtesting, Deadguy needs 7-8 finishers. I wouldn't hesitate to bump the SFM package to 8 cards (4/4 split) and run SoFI - It's the best sword by far because of it's draw and fast clock. If you can't include SoFI because of budget issues then either of the 2 remaining swords is probably "ok", but I'd prefer something with Pro-Blue to avoid Sower of Temptation and to fly by Vendilion Clique. Pro-Green swords also have the added bonus of being able to equip to a ground-pounder (Bob, Grunt, or Sculler) and swing through goyf's and KotR's. So I guess if you can't run SoFI, run SoBM.
Bitterblossom. This card can be good on turn 2 - after that it's slow, and you better be able to make best use of it's recurring creatures. I think a large equipment package works with this, but generally a 2-of is not what I'd be running of this card. Personally, I consider these 2 spots, 2 of the mystic package, and the Grunt Spots as Flex for your build. I think closer attention to these 6 spots could yeild a tighter build that is more consistent. I'll talk about some ideas for these later in the post.
Spells:
A couple general comments here. Vindicate allows this deck to run a larger removal suite than most decks, since that card is never dead in any matchup. If you're not running a couple vindicate's then you're probably in one of 2 situations - you're running too many dead removal spells against combo and control OR you're not running enough removal against aggro in game 1. So in either situation you're sacrificing your game one against some of the meta. If Vindicate is a price issue, then generally I think you just have to look at your meta and make the call - Removal heavy, or removal light. Also, if you're going to run scullers then you may be able to cut either a duress or a therapy to make room for another piece of equipment as well. Lastly, if you're going to run bitterblossom I'd consider running Innocent blood over edicts because it has the added bonus of being able to deal with a T1 Lackey or Cursecatcher.
Artifacts:
I think I beat this topic to death in SFM comments. However, I'll also take this time to repeat my hate for Vial. lol
Lands:
This, IMO, is your biggest issue.
Wasteland is pretty key to this deck beating combo. I've run the deck without wasteland before, and I have to say discard cannot provide enough control on it's own, it needs another form of back-up (brainstorm, Top, and Lim Dul's Vault absolutely ignores discard spells). Against aggro and threat-light control you have removal - you need will need something against combo as well. If you cannot run wasteland then you'll need excessive combo hate in your board, not the end of the world, it's just something to consider when building your board. Honestly if you aren't running vindicates anyway then wastelands may not be enough land destruction anyway.
Plains. Too many. You want turn 1 discard, Turn 2 bob if you can there, almost always...that's a lot of black. Personally, if I couldn't afford scrubs then I'd run 6 fetches (catacombs would probably be the other 2 fetches) and 4 Tainted lands. Generally I've found 5 fetches to be a minimum number for this deck anyway. If you tune your creature base to black-based (instead of Grunt, Mom, Avenger) if your opponent cuts your white it will mean a lot less...plus you have Vial, being cut from a color should be the last of your worries. I think you'll find that you'll more often loose to your own mana base than you would loose to wasteland.
And some closing thoughts. Because you're already running 2 edicts and 4 therapies and you have 6 flex spots, I'd consider going to 3 Abyssal Persecutor and 3 Gatekeeper of Malakir - and swaping your vials for Rituals. You may loose some of the consistency that vial provides, but you'll gain some significant explosiveness with Rituals - Turn 1 Bob + Discard is absolutely devistating to almost any deck in legacy, and T1 Vampire Nighthawk is also pretty damn good. Also, in this configuration, you won't randomly loose to Null Rod (shutting off vials and equipment), Needle, or artifact hate. Also, you'll essentially gain 3 more removal spells in your maindeck, all while making all of your removal spells relevant in every matchup (against your own creatures, LOL).
All just suggestions...good luck!
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Wrong: Elves Combo is the cheapest legacy deck, easily. You can build a competitive build for less than $200. When you aren't playing Tarmogoyf, Force of Will, or Wasteland you costs get reasonable quickly, lol.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Right, not even playing duals :-)
Vindicate has always been a house for me. i've found that this deck has no auto-wins, nor any auto-loses either: it makes a go of it in about every matchup. i'm running the build without vials or equipment (decklist here), so take the following advice with a grain of salt. i run 3 for the same reason i round 3 MD revokers: there's always a problem you want to take care of, and the versatility.
on the topic of versatility, i've replaced Innocent Blood with Funeral Charm. it gets the 1st turn things you want innocent blood for (Hierarch, Lackey, Cursecatcher, manaelf/bird), works at instant speed, and can be used as a pump on your own creature to push through lethal OR instant speed discard. topdeck war? see his eyes light up on his draw step? cast the charm on his draw step.
as for Persecutor, with the amount of removal i've used, i've never had a problem getting rid of him, which means i have the perfect amount or just a bit too much—though i've never playtested the Gatekeeper. the BBB is the part i'm not so into, but then again i dislike rituals, which i've playtested in a non-vial, non-equipment setting. are you vial players seeing artifact hate much? i'm going to pick up the vials and utility creatures over the next little while to try the vial/mom/equipment build.
Congratz! So this is your deck? I was very impressed at first glance when I saw that list. Especially the Enlightened Tutor plan. My first observation was the lack of discard. Did you miss it? I was thinking of running that list but somehow fitting in a set of Thoughtseize, as you don't really have a way to interact with your opponent early game. Resolving Vial can be absolutely vital and one of the main reasons to run discard, in m experience. The 2cc curve is also what makes Aether Vial so great in this deck. I 've been running a similar list for a while but, mainly, without the Tutor plan and Revokers, but with discard. Did 2x SFM prove to be enough? I've always loved seeing that card and usually run 3 in BW Tempo.
Pretty slick list. 16 maindeck cards tutorable for E-Tutor with a 15 card tutor board. How did you do against rock? Did you ever reach for chalice of the Void - against what?
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
@ bokwinkle
Like me, I guess you also didn't see his tourney report thread :P. He mentioned that he used CotV against Spring Tide and Affinity.
I really like the list as well.
Lately in testing I've been getting sick of how conditional so many of the "staple" cards in Deadguy/Black are. Ritual is the most obvious case, but Hymn, Thoughtseize, and Waste have all been dead draws on several occasions. I like Tim's list because it seems to run more business spells, and the tutors let him run less situational cards. I've actually been working on a similar list that's predominantly white, and now I think I'm def. going to test dropping the discard all together.
Did I miss discard? Sometimes I wanted some more discard or to play Seize/Inquisition over the Scullers, but just as often I was happy to have a body on the table or that they couldn't get what I took out of the yard. One of my friends has been telling me to play Seize as well for a long time but I really don't know what I would cut. In all honesty I would usually end up siding out some or all of the Scullers. EoT1 tutor for Sculler game 1 is often a good play though. If you aren't familiar enough with the format to be able to tell what people are playing at the end of their first turn then you need discard, especially since this deck revolves around proactively stopping them.
As for the importance of Vial, I often sided at least one out if not more. Against other decks playing Vial I would usually side out 2-4 because I want to name it with Revoker, and folk tends to side out Standstill if they see my Vial g1. With everything costing 2 I'm not extremely dependent on Vial, but it sure is nice. I'll often use it as counter bait so I can land a Mom/Bob/other awesome card the next turn. If they don't counter then I still get to land those cards. If I don't play it T1 I usually end up waiting until I've got the game under a little better control, so siding them out and playing one late game isn't the end of the world.
Stoneforge Mystic: I used to run 3 and at one point I had 4 E Tutor main. The equipment is often game winning but I found myself holding multiples far too often for me to be happy. 2 SFM is exactly the right number with 2/3 E Tutor. I got the equipment I wanted in a timely manner but I was never flooded with it.
Wasteland: While occasionally dead, it still provides mana and is way too important in too many MUs to not play. Just think if I had actually been able to waste AJ's Academy Ruins before he EEd 5 times.
How was Mom throughout the day? Also what do you think about possibly cutting 1 Revoker for a Canonist in the main? You would basically be able to play around it most of the time, while having some hope against combo G1.
Led-less Dredge is easily attainable for about $180
Right you are...and that's a fairly competitive deck as well. I wasn't sure about dredge, but I knew Elves was fairly affordable. The only thing that can break the bank is if you incorporate fetchlands into the mix, but even that doesn't make it top $250 (I play 3 Verdant Catacombs and 1 Wooded Foothills). I don't have experience with building Dredge...wow, less than $200? That's incredible.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Honestly I was never sad to see Mom in my opener, except when she stayed there because I fucked up and didn't play her T1 against High Tide. She allowed me to stall my death long enough to stabilize several times. She was also crucial at pushing equipped creatures, that weren't Serra Avenger, through for gamebreaking effects.
I will not cut a Revoker for anything main. I sided one out one time the entire day. Even in MU where you think it might not be that great because they only have a few targets, Merfolk, Goblins, High Tide, those targets are crucial to stop. If Coralhelm Commander gets flying I'm in a world of hurt. You can cut off all of Goblins removal, plus Vial in both decks. If High Tide uses a Candelabra once it's usually GG. I used to run a Canonist main, I think over the third Vindicate, but I don't like it. It doesn't help very much against most of the field and sometimes it's no good for me. I distinctly remember playing against Team America and having one out when my opponent played a Tombstalker. I was tapped out that turn but had 2 StP. I needed to play Bob on my turn and he swung on his turn. In response I attempted StP and it got countered. I couldn't play the second due to Canonist and almost lost thanks to 5 from Stalker.
I think I have about the best non-blue combo MU out there besides maybe Junk. Again Revokers are key to stalling them long enough to swing through with a ton of bears. Between the challenge and the open I played Combo Elves 2-0, Dredge 2-0, High Tide L-W-W, and Belcher L-W-L. against Belcher a Canonist main wouldn't have changed a thing. G1 he spewed out 12 goblins turn zero. G3 he was on the play and I had Revoker, Engineered Plague and the land to cast them, but he belched me on his second turn :/
You may, instead of a singleton main Canonist, try a single CotV in order to help the Combo MU. But this is just an idea and needs testing. A CotV on 1 is a beating against quite a few other decks as well. Though you do need to be in a good postion already to cast it in G1, else it hurts you as well.
It sounds good in theory, but I have 12 1 drops main, and 4 of them are half of my removal. If I don't already have a Vial at one, which I never do, there's no way to cast Mom, or even Vial for that matter.
Chalice is also one of those cards that you want to play ASAP so you spend your first turn looking for it with E Tutor instead of playing Vial and then you're never able to play Vial if it lands. You also have to know exactly what your opponent is playing immediately rather than waiting a couple turns to drop a Revoker.
Like I said in the last post, I think I have the best non-blue Combo MU. A Chalice would certainly improve it, but I don't know that Combo is that bad or prevelant to warrant it.
Edit: I'm strongly considering running 1 Top. It obviously isn't necessary to win but it is tutorable and very good on it's own.
How did the combo elves matchup go? How did you stop them from going nuts g1?
nvm found your report on mtgs
I don't think I said much about Combo Elves since it was during the challenge the day before. I StPd his T1 Llanowar and took a Glimpse of Nature with a Sculler T2, played Jitte and killed everything. G2 He mulled to 4 but I played a T2 Chalice of the Void at one. StPd his lonely Priest, Vindicated his Archdruid and Revokered his insect that lets him bounce dudes to untap dudes.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote