Lets take a took at the typical scenario when you opp doesn't bolt your nacatl and misstep is bad. I can list a million other scenarios where it is terrible as well.
Same reason it doesn't run any of the other million cards in magicReally, why wouldn't Zoo want this?
<3 how everyone continues to argue back and forth about the card based on theoretical scenarios rather than doing actual proxy playtesting and posting their results.
Much love.
Wow, I actually cut out a section of my post explaining that Mental Misstep is not the same as Timewalk. I thought, "Nobody is so retarded that they will POSSIBLY think I'm saying Mental Misstep is the same as Timewalk." Unfortunately, I went broke underestimating the stupidity of the MTG public.Originally Posted by rukcus
Timewalk and Mental Misstep are different. No shit. I proposed that slowing your opponent down and speeding yourself up are equivalent, and Timewalk is an easily demonstrable way of showing that the two can be equivalent.
I assume that most people think of Timewalk in the vein of "Take an extra turn (this does not affect your opponent's development)," but I pointed out that "Opponent skips his next turn (utterly disrupting your opponent's development for one turn, but not affecting your own)" is exactly the same thing.
Mental Misstep is similar to Timewalk in that it disrupts what your opponent is trying to do, slowing down his ability to implement his gameplan and giving you a developmental edge. It's NOT similar in that Timewalk allows you to take an additional turn. I can't believe I have to say that, but there you go.
This is because one camp is too stupid even to try playtesting it, thinking that they disproved its efficacy; the other camp has tried playtesting it and is trying to explain their findings.
Incidentally, playtested pre-misstep Zoo against Mental Misstep Merfolk and Zoo went 3-7 in ten game 1s. I think Zoo used to get about a 60-70% game 1. It's not enough games to conclude anything, but as Merfolk I always felt if I was on the play and had either Vial or Misstep, it felt like my opponent mulliganned to 5. I also playtested Zoo with Mental Misstep vs. White Weenie with Mental Misstep. We split the games (4-4 game 1s), but both agreed after that Mental Misstep was the best card in either deck and that winning while your opponent outdrew you on Missteps felt like stealing a victory (I think that only happened once, though I didn't record anything). I've also played a few other random decks, and the power level for decks post-Misstep is quite a bit higher.
But nobody who isn't convinced by theory will believe me or this or anything else. Inc accusations that my testing is flawed, or not enough games, etc. etc. Probably true, but statements like this will highlight how little testing results actually matter in terms of convincing people.
So people in the other camp actually have something specific to test, I predict that Misstep Goblins will beat non-Misstep Zoo in game 1s. Feel free to test any number of games to confirm/deny this claim. Both decks are pretty easy to pilot and the matchup is relatively straightforward, so you shouldn't run into huge problems of player skill.
Could underestimating Mental Misstep be...a Mental Misstep!!??
K. I'm done now.
Because they don't always have swords to plowshares. Sometimes they have smother, sometimes they have go for the throat, or snuff out and sometimes they have a tarmogoyf to block the wild nactl. You will HAVE to cut something for mental misstep, and the thing that you cut--burn, creatures, or removal--might be useful in more situations than protecting a one drop. I'm not sure either way (since I play Goblins and TES, but not Zoo), but if you look at the way that people from the zoo thread are responding, I'm not so sure that MM is the way to go. I brought this up on the zoo thread, and we had a couple of people from this thread pop over there and rehash their arguments, and the zoo people rejected misstep fairly handily:
Rishadan Port is like scuba gear.
--FoulQ
It's only a matter of time before Zoo bites someone's ear off.
Honestly, thinking about magic is much more fun than playing it. There are a million sequences of plays that can happen, and the variance involved in opening 7's makes the game extremely dynamic. Mental Misstep adds a theoretical speed bump to any line of play involving a 1drop, and that's a significant change. It opens up many new possibilies, and forces you to reevaluate every card in your deck. This is exposing for bad players!
Imo, The people that really know legacy, and contemplate over what the format really is, understand the card. Those that don't, Can't.
Last edited by troopatroop; 04-29-2011 at 08:40 PM.
Playtested some more with Zoo.
I took someone's list and removed four random cards. Mental Misstep is definitely the card I most want to see now, in any draw. I'd run 8 copies if I could. It has ridiculous explosive power. Merfolk not running MM is a joke to MM Zoo. I have a decent combo MU now. It beats up on other Zoo decks. Laughs at Swords to Plowshares.
Definitely this deck could be way better, but it's still a massive improvement over any non-MM version of Zoo.
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
1 Loam Lion
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Mental Misstep
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
I'll be testing this. It's a re-hash of Steppe Lynx -> Reckless Charge. Counter Swords for 0cc?
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
2 Kird Ape
2 Loam Lion
3 Reckless Charge
4 Mental Misstep
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
It's basically a turn 3 combo deck, with better game against Merfolk and Goblins. Removal + Misstep hurts me. Alot.
Like a quarter of games open with a Misstep war over the turn one drop of the first player. Anything that's vulnerable to Misstep or can't afford to lose the war is an extremely questionable choice.
Keep in mind that while even the worst decks in Legacy with Mental Misstep beat every tier 1 deck easily, you have to be testing Misstep decks against other Misstep decks.
That is going in my sig. It appears misstep zoo and goblins are just going to wreck the formatKeep in mind that while even the worst decks in Legacy with Mental Misstep beat every tier 1 deck easily, you have to be testing Misstep decks against other Misstep decks.
Seems like playing another three fetchlands might be better than 9 duals. Also would path be better as more burn?
This may be true, but I can't fetch all the duals with different fetches. Also, that would be 15 fetches to 6 lands, and Steppe Lynx really wants a pure white source for turn 1. It makes Stifle + Wasteland a bit worse (Less fetches, More duals), and Misstep protects from Stifle as well.
Path to Exile important against Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, and KoTR. It's nice to have an out to them.
...maybe you want to discuss this in a different thread!
Not really, at least with Goblins. The 8 best cards in Goblins are all 1 drops. While Misstep can protect your Vial or Lackey from your opponent's one mana answers, every deck just got an extra 4 answers.
Zoo is a strong option, but it has more weaknesses than I thought. Your removal is extremely unreliable, especially against larger creatures that can gum up the board (since Mental Missteps often trade down cheap beaters, cards like Tarmogoyf become even more important). Trading down Missteps is great, but it doesn't happen very often (only ~25% of the time), and a Mental Misstep out of time can trip you up just as badly as you can trip them up. Zoo still probably benefits from Misstep more than anybody else, but Misstep is quite strong AGAINST Zoo as well, so Zoo only moves up slightly on the tier hierarchy (mainly from High Tide becoming complete shit and from combo taking a big hit).
I'm currently playtesting slower-type control decks that sacrifice anti-combo elements for anti-aggro/aggrocontrol elements.
You are wrong. The best deck will be High Tide because it has 3 Cunning Wish and 4 Merchant Scroll, and therefore it can effectively play 10 copies of Mental Misstep.
That was before MM could protect warchief/piledriver/instigator from removal.
by the way: lackey+MM on the play is nuts :D
I'm wondering whether we should just ignore the fact that Swords/Path are countered by MM, since there's not much reason to play them when you can play Dismember and dodge MM in situations where its target would be really relevant.
A very interesting article on SCG.
No theory. Ari Lax tested MM in several Matchups. Low sample size, but he provides some interesting analysis that sounds reasonable.
Looking forward to hear more results from people who tested it.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...ic_People.html
Zoo vs. Storm:
Mental Misstep was not even close to enough. Hitting a cantrip was much less than a turn of extra time gained, and most of the time, the Storm deck could just win through it with a combination of Cabal Rituals, Lion's Eye Diamonds, and, if necessary, a Duress to check if the way was clear. Almost every game Storm had a line where Misstep was irrelevant.
Goblins vs. Blue
Without a Goblin Lackey or Aether Vial, Goblins had serious issues doing anything in a reasonable time frame.
Overall winners for Ari are Merfolk & Counterbalance.
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